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Thread: Milk?

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    '05 NUEser EJ123's Avatar
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    Milk?


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    Wtf?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EJ123
    Never have liked milk, but loved yogurt. Unfortunately due to the strong association of dairy products with prostate cancer, I gave up all dairy products and almost totally eliminated animal products as well. I've already exhausted both known cures for prostate cancer and can't afford for it to re-occur.

    Surprisingly, my wife did as well and has never felt better. Her digestive issues disappeared as did the majority of her chronic allergy symptoms.

    If one is interested in the exhaustive science behind the issues with milk and other animal products you can read Campbell's The China Study.

    Another interesting item is that those countries with the highest dairy consumption have the highest bone breakage with advancing age. The explanation is quite simple, but kind of suppressed in the past as the doctors and the media get most of their information from the meat and dairy associations. Now folks have a much greater access due to the newer books and possibly the "notmilk" site.

    Al

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    Not obese just overweight ratebeer's Avatar
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    I've recently came to the conclusion that milk is very bad food.

    It started by my wife and I getting this kind of lumpy zit. My sister said "avoid milk." I was very doubtful but the acne went away and never returned for both of us. Well my wife will get them because occasionally she's into sour cream and cheese on rare occasion.


    I also found that milk fat negatively affects my digestion, my blood flow (which I can feel now that I'm riding more), and my weight loss. It's just terrible for me and it's terrible for my riding. I hate it.
    Joe

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    370H-SSV-0773H linux_author's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJ123
    - tks! i really needed some humor today!

    (having a nice big chocolate milk right now)

    :-)

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    Not obese just overweight ratebeer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by linux_author
    - tks! i really needed some humor today!

    (having a nice big chocolate milk right now)

    :-)
    My mom has bypass surgery friends who are the same way. "Hey, that stint was a little painful but my arteries feel great now! Let's dig into the ice cream again!"

    Joe

    Veho difficilis, ago facilis

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    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by linux_author
    - tks! i really needed some humor today!

    (having a nice big chocolate milk right now)

    :-)

    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

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    Those of us who may have seen the light encourage the wise-asses to drink as much milk as possible. Then they'll be a lot fewer high-jacked threads in the future possibly.

    Al

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    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    How do you know it isn't we, the milk drinkers that have seen the light? Usually when an opposing viewpoint is that offensive, it indicates that the offendee doesn't have much faith in their own viewpoint. I likes me milk, sue me.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

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    Good ol' PETA. I did an analysis of their rhetorical approach for school, and it required digesting lots of their material. Most of it didn't agree with me, nor I with it.

    Humans are omnivores, milk is food. Some people can tolerate it, some can't. (I'm still looking for the land of milk and honey.)

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    Not obese just overweight ratebeer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom
    How do you know it isn't we, the milk drinkers that have seen the light? Usually when an opposing viewpoint is that offensive, it indicates that the offendee doesn't have much faith in their own viewpoint. I likes me milk, sue me.
    Honestly, it's a small effect. Some milk here and there won't kill you. If you're a very highly trained athlete or a supermodel (yes Chip, if you want to go to the Ford Modeling Agency from the Assos catalog, listen up!), you're most likely already avoiding milk and milk fat. Infants and kids probably suffer a little more from milk drinking as well. Cow's milk is meant for baby calves which grow at rates far greater than humans. The non-hippie doctors who write baby books as well as my toddler son's pediatrician are cautious about milk and have a bunch to say about it.

    Also, if you work in the ice cream or dairy business, milk fat is a huge hazard. In the craft brewing business, I see a lot of overweight guys but they aren't dying of heart attacks. On the other hand, ice cream execs die of heart attacks left and right while they're still very young.

    For the rest of us though, it's about personal preference. I of course think milk is disgusting.
    Last edited by ratebeer; 05-30-07 at 04:38 PM.
    Joe

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    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    Can somebody point out something we eat or drink that isn't gonna kill us? If it agrees with ya, enjoy, if not, don't.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

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    Cyclo Sapiens babydee's Avatar
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    That site blames milk for playing a significant role in African-American cancer discrepencies versus Whites, linking it with American racism. I've actually studied cancer discrepencies between whites and blacks, and the milk angle has f**k all to do with it. It is a complex problem, with poverty/poor health care providers, lack of health information provision to blacks by providers, and staging at presentation playing significant roles, among other things.

    That is sloppy work, and it makes me question the whole site.

    EDIT: Just went through the "Acne" entry. It quotes what appears to be an editorial by a JHU Pediatric doc (who I'm sure has reasons for opposing milk drinking in kids/teens), but then follows with journal blurbs which support only parts of the connection. Not saying there isn't one, but again this is "journal-style" editorializing, not to be confused with the work of peer-reviewed journals. Hmmm.
    Last edited by babydee; 05-30-07 at 06:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom
    How do you know it isn't we, the milk drinkers that have seen the light? Usually when an opposing viewpoint is that offensive, it indicates that the offendee doesn't have much faith in their own viewpoint. I likes me milk, sue me.
    It could be the milk drinkers who've got the best light. There's a lot of conflicting so-called research out there. That's a major reason I would never advise a person what to do. What I do advise is to educate your self to all positions and decide for your self.

    There's been at least 40 years of pro-milk propaganda or "light" if you will, so the pro-milk case is well known and understood. The more recent research challenges all that big time. Some study and understanding of that evidence would be a good idea if you'd like to avoid some serious diseases as you get on in years.

    I personally find the research and the evidence compelling and that's why I never touch milk products anymore. I'm particularly impressed with the science reported in the China Study. I'm educated and worked as a scientist (and engineer) for about 36 years and it's scientific basis, methodology, data analaysis, etc. are first class. However, as good as it is, it's not absolute proof yet and the author so states numerous times. But the evidence IS sufficient to demolish all the pro-milk evidence that's been around since I was a kid.

    Nutrition is not well understood. It's not just vitamins, but there are thousands of chemicals involved in nutrition in ways not yet understood. So you have to keep up and keep weighing the new evidence and hope to make the best decisions.

    Per the comment a little milk won't kill you, that depends on the rest of your diet and your susceptibility to prostate cancer and possibly to Alzheimer's although that link is not really as well established yet. It also depends on the definition of "little". In reality, moderation can kill.

    Just to be clear, I'm not defending the web site as I have not read anything on it yet.

    Al
    Last edited by Al.canoe; 05-30-07 at 06:32 PM.

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    Not obese just overweight ratebeer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babydee
    EDIT: Just went through the "Acne" entry. It quotes what appears to be an editorial by a JHU Pediatric doc (who I'm sure has reasons for opposing milk drinking in kids/teens), but then follows with journal blurbs which support only parts of the connection. Not saying there isn't one, but again this is "journal-style" editorializing, not to be confused with the work of peer-reviewed journals. Hmmm.
    This acne thing is interesting to me in that I had huge doubts about milk's relation to them as well.

    My wife and I, both big former artisan cheese lovers, used to get these large subcutaneous cyst-like zits in addition to our normal acne. It seems our normal acne cleared up with age but the cyst like ones persisted. My sister took one look at the things and said, "Milk." Maybe it was placebo, but those cyst-like zits went away completely. I was stunned.

    Yes, it's anecdotal evidence but the effect was plain as day.


    One more anecdote...

    Like I said, my wife and I were very into artisan cheese. We went to Saloné del Gusto in Turin, Italy to sample wines, beers, cheeses, breads and sakes. The cheeses were phenomenal and varied and I had to sample everything. After three days of this I could not eat another piece of cheese, even when stuff that I knew was amazingly delicious was put in front of me. That evening, at the age of 34 or so, I had what felt like a very minor heart attack.

    I know I was totally gorging on cheese but the whole episode suggested to me that it wouldn't be hard to show that an athlete sitting down to a cheese plate before riding a timed event would not do as well as one with same abilities who did not. I guess that's one challenge for anyone who really loves cheese but doesn't think it affects them negatively.
    Joe

    Veho difficilis, ago facilis

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    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al.canoe
    It could be the milk drinkers who've got the best light. There's a lot of conflicting so-called research out there. That's a major reason I would never advise a person what to do. What I do advise is to educate your self to all positions and decide for your self.

    There's been at least 40 years of pro-milk propaganda or "light" if you will, so the pro-milk case is well known and understood. The more recent research challenges all that big time. Some study and understanding of that evidence would be a good idea if you'd like to avoid some serious diseases as you get on in years.

    I personally find the research and the evidence compelling and that's why I never touch milk products anymore. I'm particularly impressed with the science reported in the China Study. I'm educated and worked as a scientist (and engineer) for about 36 years and it's scientific basis, methodology, data analaysis, etc. are first class. However, as good as it is, it's not absolute proof yet and the author so states numerous times. But the evidence IS sufficient to demolish all the pro-milk evidence that's been around since I was a kid.

    Nutrition is not well understood. It's not just vitamins, but there are thousands of chemicals involved in nutrition in ways not yet understood. So you have to keep up and keep weighing the new evidence and hope to make the best decisions.

    Per the comment a little milk won't kill you, that depends on the rest of your diet and your susceptibility to prostate cancer and possibly to Alzheimer's although that link is not really as well established yet. It also depends on the definition of "little". In reality, moderation can kill.

    Just to be clear, I'm not defending the web site as I have not read anything on it yet.

    Al

    I just drink it cuz I like it, not because of what some marketer says. I've liked it since I was a little guy...much better on my tummy than juices, soft drinks, even water. I didn't much like the powdered stuff my momma used to get, but rediscovered the joys of 2% when I went into the military and have been drinking it again ever since. If it's bad for me, there have been no indications after 47 years and heck, there's lots of things that are bad for me that will probably get me first...like smoking, drinking, partying, driving without a seatbelt, riding without a helmet, eating food bought in a store - not to mention fast food. I'm a firm believer that we are all unique...what's good for one may not be so good for another and visa-versa. So I kinda rebel at the barrage of generalizations about everything under the sun and it's potential bad effects. I just do what works for me and respect the right of others to do the same.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

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    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom
    I just drink it cuz I like it,.
    That's the worst reason of all. The smokers, the heavy drinkers and the over-eaters probably think the same way.

    Al

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    Oh, the earth is flat too.
    "I'm a loner Dottie, a rebel."

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    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al.canoe
    That's the worst reason of all. The smokers, the heavy drinkers and the over-eaters probably think the same way.

    Al
    Oh well, seems to bother you more than it does me.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

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    Al.conoe - I've been following the same plant based diet for the last several months (since reading the China Study), my cholesterol numbers have dropped significantly and my overall "numbers" according to my doc are excellent. It was an odd transition but I feel much better now and have passed the info on to my friends. A few have poo-pooed it and some have decided to try it, I'm happy most are just starting to consider their control over their health in a new light..."diseases of affluence" are so avoidable.

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    Not obese just overweight ratebeer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Queen
    Al.conoe - I've been following the same plant based diet for the last several months (since reading the China Study), my cholesterol numbers have dropped significantly and my overall "numbers" according to my doc are excellent. It was an odd transition but I feel much better now and have passed the info on to my friends. A few have poo-pooed it and some have decided to try it, I'm happy most are just starting to consider their control over their health in a new light..."diseases of affluence" are so avoidable.
    Have you noted cycling performance changes?
    Joe

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    Quote Originally Posted by ratebeer
    Have you noted cycling performance changes?
    I've been off the bike a while and just started back this year so I can't speak to that. I can say that while kayaking I breathe much better and seem to have less early onset muscle fatigue (burning sensation) in my back and shoulders than I did before the dietary changes.

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    Cyclo Sapiens babydee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ratebeer
    This acne thing is interesting to me in that I had huge doubts about milk's relation to them as well.

    My wife and I, both big former artisan cheese lovers, used to get these large subcutaneous cyst-like zits in addition to our normal acne. It seems our normal acne cleared up with age but the cyst like ones persisted. My sister took one look at the things and said, "Milk." Maybe it was placebo, but those cyst-like zits went away completely. I was stunned.

    Yes, it's anecdotal evidence but the effect was plain as day.


    One more anecdote...

    Like I said, my wife and I were very into artisan cheese. We went to Saloné del Gusto in Turin, Italy to sample wines, beers, cheeses, breads and sakes. The cheeses were phenomenal and varied and I had to sample everything. After three days of this I could not eat another piece of cheese, even when stuff that I knew was amazingly delicious was put in front of me. That evening, at the age of 34 or so, I had what felt like a very minor heart attack.

    I know I was totally gorging on cheese but the whole episode suggested to me that it wouldn't be hard to show that an athlete sitting down to a cheese plate before riding a timed event would not do as well as one with same abilities who did not. I guess that's one challenge for anyone who really loves cheese but doesn't think it affects them negatively.
    Man, I hope you are not having any complications from that incident, whether it was a heart attack or chest pain or whatever. Yikes.

    As for the acne...hey, whatever works. Placebo, cure, I'll take any positive result myself.

    I've never been a big milk drinker until very recently, when I started drinking lots of protein shakes, and I'm already looking at ways to cut back by using juice in some of the shakes etc. Cutting back on cheese as well. I don't doubt that there is some validity to at least some of what the website claims...at least for some of the population. However, it inspires me to look at research myself rather than taking their word based on the presentation. My $.02.

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    Faster but still slow slowandsteady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al.canoe
    That's the worst reason of all. The smokers, the heavy drinkers and the over-eaters probably think the same way.

    Al

    Yeah, cuz milk is JUST like smoking and heavy drinking and obesity......
    "Ride lots." -- Eddy Merckx

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    Faster but still slow slowandsteady's Avatar
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    I used to get acne and have wild mood swings when I was living in PA and drinking PA water. But now that I live in New Jersey, I hardly get any. New Jersey rocks!!! Sure I was a teenager when I lived in PA, but that couldn't be it.
    "Ride lots." -- Eddy Merckx

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