lpress

Do any of you take a creatine supplement? I did a little searching on the effect of creatine, and it seems to help a bit. What has been your experience?

ed073

negligible benefit for endurance sports such as road cycling.

Spend your money on shorts, tops, new chain/cassette etc etc.

DannoXYZ 

Maybe if you're a bodybuilder or track-cyclist. It appears to have negative effects for longer-distance cyclists.

pcates

just to rehash this arguement...........i came across this article that seems to suggest that creatine isn't such a bad thing

https://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0037.htm

ModoVincere

Creatine combines with phosphate to create a very high energy source in the muscle cells. Creatine Phosphate is consumed in the cells during extremely hard efforts of very short duration...we're talking max effort for 5 to 10 seconds at best...this is what you get in a sprint, it won't help you get up big hills or help your enduarance any. On top of this, there is some concern that it may be hard on the kidneys as they are the primary method of excretion for creatine.

PDay

Its hard enough to stay properly hydrated as it is. Creatine only makes that harder.

DanteB

The body will only absorb some much creatine, which you should get enough through normal diet. All the extra is eliminated through the kidneys and the toilet. So you might as well just pour it down the toilet and save the kidneys.

pcates

Surely when used in conjuction with a weight/strength training regime it's beneficial? Considering that most races in North America are short crits or races around 100km strength plays as big a role as endurance and creatine will build strength, and strength is strength, so that will help you up hills. As far as endurance goes i agree it won't help. I also agree that there is the unwanted water retention but this will go away when you stop using it. So i can't see why it's a bad thing to use when in periods of high training intensity?

As far as effects on kidneys...most of the literature i've read of late dispels this as myth.

Carbonfiberboy 

I'm a vegetarian, and I think it helps with this diet. Only 5g after a workout. No effect on kidneys. Also no effect on hydration. Don't take it like a bodybuilder, "loading" and all that. Take it to imitate meat eating. If you eat meat, unnecessary IMHO. BTW, I'm a very bad boy in the sprints.

grebletie

Repeat after me: Cycling is an aerobic sport!

Your understanding of strength as it relates to endurance isn't correct. Even short crits and races are largely reliant on aerobic energy substrates. In that regard, "strength" is next to useless. They're all endurance events. Something interesting to note is that the strength required to turn the pedals on a bike is so low that any healthy adult can do so without difficulty. It's just simply not a question of strength, but rather aerobic conditioning.

Things might be different if you're weight lifting and looking to add muscle. But for cycling, creatine is useless.

From High-Performance Cycling (highly recommended):

edzo

the trouble with creatine is you need to mix it and use it pretty quick. if you put some in
a water bottle...after 20 minutes 90% of it will be garbage. it breaks down very quickly

Revenge energy drink has added creatine in little granules which don't melt fast. anyone who
uses revenge knows about the pink sand in it...that is the creatine formulated to remain
effective as long as they don't melt, and you can shake it and sip some for the duration
of your ride. in this use, creatine DOES do a cyclist some good.

but only if you take wee amounts, and only if it is within 10 minutes of it being mixed with
water. but it does help with sprinting and hill climbing a bit. I used it for 2 years and it certainly
didn't slow me down, and I had fresher legs at the 3 hour point than without it.

but what made me fast (if I was ever fast) was long hours in the saddle, not some jimbojuice

pcates

Thanks Captain Obvious.

The nice thing about the internet is that for every argument one can find a counter argument. oh the wonderful nature of debate.

https://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0864.htm

https://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0037.htm



Now i haven't tried creatine, but i've read enough to suggest it may help.....and that was the original question posed in this thread

grebletie

Indeed. However, although the internet makes it possible to find articles supporting just about any viewpoint, that doesn't make the viewpoint necessarily right. To come to a conclusion about something you want to put in your body, you ought to evaluate the body of work on the subject, rather than individual studies. And, looking at the forest instead of the trees, creatine supplementation simply isn't proven to have much of a benefit for cyclists in particular, and endurance athletes in general.


From Demant and Rhodes, a review of extant literature on creatine supplementation (Sports Med 1999 July) A summary of 9 controlled studies involving cyclists:https://www.cptips.com/creatlt.htm
https://www.cptips.com/creatine.htm

Bottom line is that except for the rare study, the body of evidence is against creatine being useful for cyclists focused on events lasting longer than a minute.

Tabagas_Ru

Creatine Supplementation and
Exercise Performance
Recent Findings
Michael G. Bemben and Hugh S. Lamont
Neuromuscular Research Laboratory, Department of Health and Sport Sciences, University of
Oklahoma, Norman, Oklahoma, USA



2.2.2 Cycling
The use of cycle ergometry to assess indices of
anaerobic power has commonly been used in previ-
ous Cr research. Measures of peak and mean power
(W), time to peak power (seconds), total work (J)
and fatigue index (%) have been shown to be positively
affected by Cr supplementation.[64] Additionally,
a number of studies have addressed the effects
of Cr ingestion upon indices of Wingate performance
since the year 2000.

Green et al.[46] randomly assigned 19 physically
active men to either a Cr group (n = 9; 20 g/day for 6
days) or a placebo group (n = 10; 20g sucrose +
maltodextrin/day). Before and after supplementation, s
ubjects performed three arm Wingate tests
(AW1, AW2, AW3), then three leg Wingate tests
(LW1, LW2, LW3) on consecutive days. Each Win-
gate trial was separated by 2 minutes of recovery.
Test variables compared between groups included
peak power (W), mean power (W), and percentage
power decline (%). There was no significant difference
from pre- to post-test for mean power output for
both the arm and leg trials. There was no change
in peak power for either groups Wingate tests; how-
ever, peak power increased significantly for the Cr group
during AW1, and for the placebo group dur-
ing AW1 and AW3. Percentage decline for the Cr
group was significantly decreased (pre- to post-test)
and was significantly less than the placebo group
after LW2.[46] Unfortunately, no interaction term
could be assessed since the authors only used t-tests
to statistically analyse the data.

Ziegenfuss et al.[45] studied highly anaerobically trained
collegiate athletes to assess the effects of 3
days of Cr ingestion on cycle ergometer power
output. Twenty division I athletes (ten males and ten
females) were selected and randomly assigned to a inCr
group (n = 10; 0.35g Cr/kg fat-free mass) or
placebo group (n = 10; 0.35g maltodextrin/kg fat-
free mass). Subjects completed six maximal 10-sec-
ond cycle sprints with 60 seconds recovery between sprints
prior to treatment and after 3 days of the
treatment. MRI techniques were used to obtain ten
transaxial images of both thighs pre and post-treat-
ment. Repeated measures analysis revealed that Cr
supplementation resulted in significant increases in
total body mass (0.9 0.1kg) compared with the
placebo group. There was also a significant 6.6%
increase in thigh volume for the Cr group that was
attributed to an increase in intracellular water with
no change for the placebo group. A significant in-
crease was also seen in total work performed during
the first sprint as well as peak power output during
sprints two through six, the total amount of work performed,
and the peak power produced during the
repeated cycle sprint protocol. When male and fe-
male subgroups (within the Cr group) were ex-
amined, the males exhibited the highest initial peak
power relative to lean body mass; however, after three
of the sprints had been completed, the reverse trend
was seen, that is, females exhibited the greater
relative peak power output.[45] The drop in power
output relative to body mass is similar to the find-
ings presented by Linnamo et al.[65] who used explo-
sive repetitive weight-lifting tasks. Although males
exhibit both higher absolute and relative power outputs,
they also experience a greater amount of cen
tral fatigue than females. Additionally, the greater
initial power output seen with males has previously
been shown to be related to greater systemic testosterone
levels and greater amounts of fat-free
mass.[63]

Deutekom et al.[50] assessed the effects of Cr
supplementation on muscle properties and sprint
performance. Twenty-three well trained rowers
were randomly assigned to either a Cr group (n = 11;
20 g/day for 6 days) or a placebo group (n = 12).
Testing consisted of 40 consecutive electrical stimutrained
lations of the quadriceps at an activation frequency
of 150Hz, which was equal to 30% of maximal
voluntary isometric peak torque. Repeated measures
ANOVA indicated that there was a significant inCr
crease in body mass for the Cr group compared with
the placebo group. However, there was no group
difference for maximal voluntary torque generation,
muscle activation as elicited by electrical stimulation,
and recovery from the electrically stimulated
exercise. Additionally, there were no differences
between groups peak power, time to peak power, or
work to peak power[50] during the sprint tests.
Wiroth et al.[47] examined the potential ergogenic
effects of Cr supplementation on maximal pedalling
performance by recruiting three groups of subjects
(G1 = sedentary, n = 14, mean age 70.1 years; G2 =
trained cyclists, n = 14, mean age 66.4 years; and G3
= young sedentary, n = 14, mean age 26.0 years).
Within each group, Cr was administered (5g three
times daily for 5 days) using a double-blinded,
randomised design. Subjects performed five maximal
10-second sprints with 60 seconds of passive
recovery between each sprint, with power output,
work done and heart rate being recorded during each
sprint. Maximal power was significantly increased
only for G1 and G3, suggesting that Cr was beneficial
in previously untrained older and younger populations
but not in previously trained individuals.[47]
This is in contrast to the findings of Rawson et al.[11]
who reported no significant increases in force or
power output in older subjects during an isokinetic
test following 5 days of Cr loading. It is possible that
the increased training status of the trained cyclist
group may have reduced the responsiveness to Cr
loading. Assessment of intramuscular Cr stores during
future studies of this type may help explain some
of the discrepancies

Within the cycling literature, authors have also
attempted to delineate the effects of Cr under conditions
that might be exhibited during performance,
such as dehydration and energy restriction. In one
paper, Vogel et al.[51] examined the effects of
cycle performance at two levels of acute hydration.
Sixteen men were randomly assigned to either a Cr
group (n = 7, 20 g/day for 5 days) or a placebo group
(n = 9). Subjects were required to perform five, sec5-
second maximal sprints on a cycle ergometer in an
environmental chamber with the temperature at
32C and 50% humidity. To induce a state of
hypohydration, subjects then performed a 75-minute
exercise session followed by the same sprint protocol,
then an additional 75 minutes of exercise. It was
determined that the two 75-minute exercise sessions
elicited similar significant losses in body mass
(–2.5% for the Cr group and –4% for the placebo
group) as well as plasma volume (–7% for the Cr
group and –9% for the placebo group) for the Cr and
placebo groups. Additionally, there were no significant
differences for either group for any of power
measures.

Reports of muscle cramping and tightness
were not different between the groups and it was
concluded that Cr supplementation did not appear to
negatively affect hydration status during extended
cycling exercise.[51]

To examine the issue of Cr usage during a period of
energy restriction, Rockwell et al.[48] randomly
assigned 16 men to either Cr group or a placebo
group. Cr was administered at 20 g/day and both the
Cr and placebo group consumed a formula diet of
75.3kJ (18 kcal/kg/day; 57% carbohydrate, 21% protein
and 24% fat). Subjects were then required to
perform ten, 6-second maximal sprints with 30
seconds of recovery between sets. Both the Cr and
placebo groups lost similar amounts of body mass
and percentage body fat, but the placebo group had a
significant decrease in percentage change of fat-free mass
when compared with the Cr group. Nitrogen
loss (total urinary nitrogen and estimated faecal loss
relative to nitrogen content of the diet) was found to
be similar in both groups. Cr and PCr concentrations
were determined by muscle biopsy from the vastus
lateralis and all samples were adjusted for the highWithin
est ATP concentrations at pre- and post-treatment.
The Cr group had significantly greater total Cr content
when compared with pre-treatment measures
(15–16%), while there was no change for the placebo
group. It is interesting to note that there were no
significant differences or interactions between the
groups, either before or after energy restriction and
supplementation, for any of the cycle performance
measures. The authors suggest that the brief 6-sec5-
ond sprints that are dependent on the phosphagen
system are less affected than longer sprint periods
that might rely on anaerobic glycolysis.

Dealing with the issue of Cr supplementation and
exercise in a hot environment, Volek et al.[49] examined
the physiological responses to short-term
exercise at 37C (80% humidity) after 7 days of Cr
loading. Twenty-two males were randomly assigned
to either a Cr group (n = 10; 0.3 g/kg BW) or a
placebo group (n = 10) in a double-blind fashion.
The exercise session consisted of cycling for 30
minutes at 60–70% of peak oxygen consumption
then, immediately perform three, 10-second
maximal sprints. Repeated measures ANOVA revealed
no significant differences between groups for
heart rate, blood pressure and sweat rate responses
to exercise. Urine excretion rates for Cr, sodium and
potassium obtained over 24 hours were also not
different between the two groups. The exercise
bouts significantly increased levels of cortisol, aldosterone,
renin, angiotensin I and II, atrial peptide
and arginine vasopressin for both groups but there
was a significant interaction term indicating that
peak power during cycling was significantly greater
during all three sprints for the Cr group but unchanged
for the placebo group.

2.3 Continuous Endurance
Much of the previous Cr literature has focused on
improvements in anaerobic and intermittent physical
activity. In terms of sport performance, there is
less evidence to support the use of Cr with activities
that are longer in duration than 3 minutes. The
potential positive ergogenic effects that Cr might
have on submaximal endurance performance have
been addressed in only a few papers since the year
2000. Jones et al.[52] investigated the effects of Cr loading
on oxygen uptake (V˙ O2) kinetics during
submaximal cycle exercise. Five subjects received
Cr (20 g/day for 5 days followed by 5 g/day maintenance
dose) while four subjects served as controls.
Following all testing conditions, 35–50 days later,
the five subjects initially supplemented with Cr now served
as controls and the initial four control subjects
were now supplemented with Cr. Paired t-tests
revealed that there were no significant differences
between groups for the V˙ O2 kinetic response during
the moderate exercise protocol and that Cr had no
ergogenic effect. The limitations of this study involve
the statistical analyses and the small sample
size.

However, similar results were obtained by Syrotuik
et al.[53] when they examined the effect of Cr
supplementation (0.3 g/kg BW/day, ingested in four
equal portions throughout the day, for 5 days, then a maintenance
phase of 0.03 g/kg BW/day for 5
weeks) on training volume for male rowers. The
initial 5-day loading period of Cr did not improve
repeated interval rowing performance, 2000m row-
ing times or any strength measures. Following an
additional 5 weeks of Cr supplementation, still no
differences were noted between the two groups relative
to any of the performance parameters.
In contrast to these two previous studies, Rico-
Sanz and Marco[54] investigated the effects of Cr
supplementation on V˙ O2 and performance during alternating
bouts of exercise at different intensities.
Fourteen male subjects were randomly assigned to either
a Cr group (n = 7; 20 g/day for 5 days) or a
placebo group (n = 7). Cycling tests were carried out
at intensities equal to 30% and 90% of peak power
until exhaustion. After a standardised warm up, subjects
cycled for a total of five, 3-minute stages
(alternating 30% and 90% of maximal power out-
put). Blood samples were taken at four separate points
(rest, just before the end of each cycling load,
at exhaustion, and at 5 minutes post-exercise).

There was a greater V˙ O2 for the Cr group and lower
blood ammonia concentrations. Plasma uric acid
was also found to be lower for the Cr group at the
cessation of exercise and 5 minutes post-exercise.
From a performance standpoint, the Cr group loading
creased their time to exhaustion from 29.9 3.8
minutes to 36.5 5.7 minutes, while there were no
changes seen with the placebo group. It appeared
that Cr supplementation during the current study
was able to increase the total amount of work that
could be performed during alternating bouts of different
intensity exercise by effecting oxygen utilization
and enhancing oxidative phosphorylation at
these varying intensities.[54]

Tabagas_Ru

Creatine Supplementation and
Exercise Performance
Recent Findings
Michael G. Bemben and Hugh S. Lamont
Neuromuscular Research Laboratory, Department of Health and Sport Sciences, University of
Oklahoma, Norman, Oklahoma, USA



3.3 Muscle Cramping
Most reports of muscle cramping following Cr
supplementation have been anecdotal in nature and
unsubstantiated, especially when research designs
have included control groups and blinding. There is
no direct evidence that Cr supplementation can induce
muscle cramping and that if cramps are experienced
that it is most likely due to either the high
intensity of the workout[8,9,18] or to a disruption in
electrolyte balance. Most authors agree that adequate
hydration during exercise is likely to significantly
reduce the chance of getting muscle cramps.

3.4 Body Mass/Water Retention
The early changes observed in BW following Cr
ingestion is probably explained by increases in body
water, especially in the intracellular compartments
within the muscle cell). Authors have speculated
that the reason for the increase in intracellular water
is the increased osmotic load associated with the
increased Cr concentrations within the cell.[9,26,77,78]
This does have implications for body composition
measurements taken in conjunction with resistance
training studies. Increases in muscle cross-sectional
area may be attributed to increased muscle hypertrophy
whereas the increase in size may be primarily
due to intracellular water retention. These same
authors have suggested that the initial intracellular
swelling may be a preparatory phase of com-
pensatory hypertrophy in response to resistance
training. Also, the increased water retention within
the intracellular compartments may contribute to
increased force production by increasing interstitial
leverage advantage.
In summary, it appears that most reports of adverse
effects regarding Cr supplementation have
been anecdotal. When studies employ research de-
signs that include control groups and blinding, there
appears to be no consistent finding of any detrimental
effects of Cr supplementation in normal, healthy
individuals.

pcates

I agree the internet does make it easy to make the facts fit ones argument. One thing I have noticed that most of the studies against creatine tends to be older whilst for tend to be more recent, the old literature used to advocate a much higher use (which is also where the hard on the kidneys information came from). I may just have to try this one out for myself......i'll report back the end of next season!

jhhall

Hi all,

It's been a long time since I've been to this forum - and I miss it!

Several years ago I took creatine for a few months. I was doing both cardio and strength training while I was taking it. It did nothing for my cardio. However, my strength training was incredible on it. You have to "load" when you first start and that does wonders to your digestive system. My muscles felt very tight while I was on it - it's like I felt that I needed to stretch all of the time. My muscles would cramp easily and I always felt "pumped".

Anyhow, bottom line is it did nothing for my cardio. But was incredible with strength training. Just too many unknows with it so I stopped. Also, the strenght benefits are very individual. My training partner also was using it and got no benefit.