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  1. #1
    Senior Member Richard Cranium's Avatar
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    Recovery Nutrition - Is more better?

    I'm not sure there is a right or wrong answer to this question. I'm more interested in hearing anecdotal experiences associated with athletes that train hard and use sports nutrition drinks during and immediately after their workouts. So feel free to answer with whatever experiences you've had.

    The question is simple. Do sport drinks seem to be more effective if you increase the quantity of the product used? For instance, I typically use Cytomax, perhaps 100-200 cals in 30oz of fluid, immediately after an hour-long workout. Then, I usually use a serving of Endurox R4, 230 cals, 20-30 minutes later.

    What I want to know is - my workout used up 700-800 cals. Do I get increased nutritional benefit by using 700-800 cals of sports products instead of using 400-500 and then eating carbs/foods later?

    I guess what I what to know, has anyone ever "downed" a 1000 cals of some product after a tough ride or race?

  2. #2
    more ape than man timmhaan's Avatar
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    the sheer amount of sugar in drinks like endurox (which has 40g per serving) makes me think twice about doubling or tripling the serving sizes. to get about 800 calories that way, you're probably ingesting around 140g of sugar.

  3. #3
    SSP
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    If you're trying to lose weight...the answer is No. Cramming down 1000 calories of anything after a ride likely won't help your recovery, and certainly won't help your waistline.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cranium
    I'm not sure there is a right or wrong answer to this question. I'm more interested in hearing anecdotal experiences associated with athletes that train hard and use sports nutrition drinks during and immediately after their workouts. So feel free to answer with whatever experiences you've had.

    The question is simple. Do sport drinks seem to be more effective if you increase the quantity of the product used? For instance, I typically use Cytomax, perhaps 100-200 cals in 30oz of fluid, immediately after an hour-long workout. Then, I usually use a serving of Endurox R4, 230 cals, 20-30 minutes later.

    What I want to know is - my workout used up 700-800 cals. Do I get increased nutritional benefit by using 700-800 cals of sports products instead of using 400-500 and then eating carbs/foods later?

    I guess what I what to know, has anyone ever "downed" a 1000 cals of some product after a tough ride or race?
    The answer to your question is "no".

    The point of the recovery nutrition is to replace muscle glycogen and give you a bit of protein to spur recovery. The research shows that 250-300 calories is the right amount, so by combining the cytomax and endurox you're actually a bit over that.

    If you get 1000 calories of recovery drink, you *will* spike your blood sugar more than you need, and that may lead it to being stored as fat or (at the very least) a big drop and more hunger later on. That's why a regular meal is recommended after the recovery drink - it gives you a nice balanced mix of carb/protein/fat.

    The goal of carbs during the workout and after is to replace the carbs that you burn. You don't need to replace the fat calories right away.
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  5. #5
    Twincities MN kuan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cranium

    I guess what I what to know, has anyone ever "downed" a 1000 cals of some product after a tough ride or race?
    Yes. It's called beer. And no, it's not good for recovery.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Richard Cranium's Avatar
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    The point of the recovery nutrition is to replace muscle glycogen and give you a bit of protein to spur recovery. The research shows that 250-300 calories is the right amount, so by combining the cytomax and endurox you're actually a bit over that.
    Right, and I got lazy "setting up" questions anyway.

    Again, what I am actually interested in trying, is using a LOT MORE sports nutrition products. In the scenario I was trying to describe, I came home from a workout that was un-fueled and intense. Typically, I hit several bottle of Cytomax for 30-40 minutes because I've lost anywhere from 4-8 pounds. Then, I start sipping on Endurox for another hour after stretching and showering.

    So what I'm really talking about, is dribbling-in a 1000+ calories of "sports products" across 2 to 3 hours. (and 64 oz of fluids)

    Since yesterday was the first time I've tried this, pure "sports drink" recovery method, I have today to "test" for my sense of recovery.............

  7. #7
    Senior Member Richard Cranium's Avatar
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    Yes. It's called beer. And no, it's not good for recovery.
    Actually that's interesting, because using the sprots drinks, may in fact be very similar to using beer. They both contain inordinate amounts of simple sugars and both lack complex-CHO. So maybe, the sport-drink calorie spike isn't any good.

    However, the sports drinks, are not diuretic, and contain other essentials, we'll see.......

  8. #8
    SSP
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cranium
    Right, and I got lazy "setting up" questions anyway.

    Again, what I am actually interested in trying, is using a LOT MORE sports nutrition products. In the scenario I was trying to describe, I came home from a workout that was un-fueled and intense. Typically, I hit several bottle of Cytomax for 30-40 minutes because I've lost anywhere from 4-8 pounds. Then, I start sipping on Endurox for another hour after stretching and showering.

    So what I'm really talking about, is dribbling-in a 1000+ calories of "sports products" across 2 to 3 hours. (and 64 oz of fluids)

    Since yesterday was the first time I've tried this, pure "sports drink" recovery method, I have today to "test" for my sense of recovery.............
    Doing an "intense" workout without proper fueling doesn't sound very smart. Nor does drinking 1000+ calories of over-priced, over-hyped "sports products" afterwards.

    BTW - if your weight was really down by 4-8 lbs, that's another illustration of ignorance. Allowing your body to get that dehydrated won't do you any good.
    Last edited by SSP; 06-26-07 at 08:59 AM.
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    Personally I don't think more afterwards will help. However, more during might help.

    I imagine you are running if you are burning 1000kcal/hour and not drinking/eating during the workout. When running I find if I carry a gel and take that at the 30min mark I do way better near the end of the run and get far less DOMS. Calorically it shouldn’t make much of a difference being only 100kcal, but it does. Afterwards I have a sweet drink before hitting the shower, then food.

    On bike nutrition is so much easier.

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    Senior Member DannoXYZ's Avatar
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    Personally, I think you just need to take in only enough to replenish the amount of glycogen that you burned off. Leave out the calories you burned in fat. So it depends upon the type of ride you did.

    Here's a study I found that shows no significant differences between 1.5 vs. 3.0g/kg carb-intake after a ride:
    Muscle glycogen storage after different amounts of carbohydrate ingestion

    J. L. Ivy, M. C. Lee, J. T. Brozinick Jr and M. J. Reed
    Department of Kinesiology and Health Education, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

    The purpose of this study was to determine whether the rate of muscle glycogen storage could be enhanced during the initial 4-h period postexercise by substantially increasing the amount of the carbohydrate consumed. Eight subjects cycled for 2 h on three separate occasions to deplete their muscle glycogen stores. Immediately and 2 h after exercise they consumed either 0 (P), 1.5 (L), or 3.0 g glucose/kg body wt (H) from a 50% glucose polymer solution. Blood samples were drawn from an antecubital vein before exercise, during exercise, and throughout recovery. Muscle biopsies were taken from the vastus lateralis immediately, 2 h, and 4 h after exercise. Blood glucose and insulin declined significantly during exercise in each of the three treatments. They remained below the preexercise concentrations during recovery in the P treatment but increased significantly above the preexercise concentrations during the L and H treatments. By the end of the 4 h-recovery period, blood glucose and insulin were still significantly above the preexercise concentrations in both treatments. Muscle glycogen storage was significantly increased above the basal rate (P, 0.5 mumol.g wet wt-1.h-1) after ingestion of either glucose polymer supplement. The rates of muscle glycogen storage, however, were not different between the L and H treatments during the first 2 h (L, 5.2 +/- 0.9 vs. H, 5.8 +/- 0.7 mumol.g wet wt-1.h-1) or the second 2 h of recovery (L, 4.0 +/- 0.9 vs. H, 4.5 +/- 0.6 mumol.g wet wt-1. h-1)
    Last edited by DannoXYZ; 06-26-07 at 12:02 PM.

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    Senior Member DannoXYZ's Avatar
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    Interestingly enough, it appears that eating all your calories after a ride in big gorging meals vs. spreading them out doesn't seem to affect recovery:

    Muscle glycogen storage after prolonged exercise: effect of the frequency of carbohydrate feedings

    LM Burke, GR Collier, PG Davis, PA Fricker, AJ Sanigorski and M Hargreaves
    Department of Sports Science, Australian Institute of Sport, Canberra, Australia. lburke@ausport.gov.au

    We reported previously that intake of carbohydrate foods with a high glycemic index (GI) produced greater glycogen storage and greater postprandial glucose and insulin responses during 24 h of postexercise recovery than did intake of low-GI carbohydrate foods. In the present study we examined the importance of the greater incremental glucose and insulin concentrations on glycogen repletion by comparing intake of large carbohydrate meals ("gorging") with a pattern of frequent, small, carbohydrate snacks ("nibbling"), which simulates the flattened glucose and insulin responses after low-GI carbohydrate meals.

    Eight well- trained triathletes [x +/- SEM: 25.6 +/- 1.5 y of age, weighing 70.2 +/- 1.9 kg, and with a maximal oxygen uptake (VO2max) of 4.2 +/- 0.2 L/min] undertook an exercise trial (2 h at 75% VO2max followed by four 30-s sprints) to deplete muscle glycogen on two occasions, 1 wk apart For 24 h after each trial, subjects rested and consumed the same diet composed exclusively of high-GI carbohydrate foods, providing 10 g carbohydrate/kg body mass.

    The "gorging" trial provided the food as four large meals of equal carbohydrate content eaten at 0, 4, 8, and 20 h of recovery, whereas in the "nibbling" trial each of the meals was divided into four snacks and fed at hourly intervals (0-11, 20-23 h). However, there was no significant difference in muscle glycogen storage between the two groups over the 24 h (gorging: 74.1 +/- 8.0 mmol/kg wet wt; nibbling: 94.5 +/- 14.6 mmol/kg wet wt). The results of this study suggest that there is no difference in postexercise glycogen storage over 24 h when a high-carbohydrate diet is fed as small frequent snacks or as large meals, and that a mechanism other than lowered blood glucose and insulin concentrations needs to be sought to explain the reduced rate of glycogen storage after consumption of low-GI carbohydrate foods.

  12. #12
    Killing Rabbits
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannoXYZ
    Interestingly enough, it appears that eating all your calories after a ride in big gorging meals vs. spreading them out doesn't seem to affect recovery:
    I would like to see a similar study using smaller carbohydrate loadings. At 10g carb/kg (2800kcal carbs for a 70kg athlete) they may have swamped out any effect just by the shear amount of carbs they were giving the athletes. In the snacking condition a 70kg athlete would have been eating 170kcal of carbs every hour; all for a workout that was just over two hours. Furthermore, if these guys were still eating moderate amounts of protein and fat they would have consumed a large amount of food, so no wonder the muscles were fully stocked in both groups.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Richard Cranium's Avatar
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    No doubt, replenishing fluids and fuels as they are used is beneficial. In my particular case, I run for an hour every other day, and every other one is at some intensity. I haven't designed, no do I expect to, a scenario where I stop every 10 mins to drink. So losing anywhere from 5-8 lbs during these runs is pretty standard. (at least in the Summer)

    In the other case, I do LT (>80%) work on trainer, and again, even though I may or may not drink a bottle during the hour, I'll lose 5-8lbs. Both the running, or the trainer workouts result in at least 700cal deficits.

    My only ideas, for setting up this thread, like I stated in the first place, was "anecdotal" experience of anyone who got "sports drinks" crazy, what their personal results were............

    Clearly, it would seem that, no one has tried, nor believes that increasing the quantity of sports products beyond a minimum after a workout is of any additional benefit.

    MY own personal experience suggests that my best carbo-loads often have come from oatmeal, rice, pasta and other complex carbs. Yet, I think that increasing my Cytomax consumption, has aided in re hydration and sped up recovery. And I support this conclusion through the performance during days of multiple workouts.

  14. #14
    Senior Member DannoXYZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cranium
    What I want to know is - my workout used up 700-800 cals. Do I get increased nutritional benefit by using 700-800 cals of sports products instead of using 400-500 and then eating carbs/foods later?

    I guess what I what to know, has anyone ever "downed" a 1000 cals of some product after a tough ride or race?
    Back to your original question. I suspect that it won't make a much of a difference. That's because once you get over 1.2-1.3g/kg of carbs in the immediate time after a ride, all of the glut-4 receptors on the muscle cell-walls will be saturated and bringing in glucose at maximum-rate. The only difference with the actual amounts will be how long it takes to soak up all of that glucose you just eaten. A 1000-calorie dose will take over 5-hours to soak up I think. The catch here is that if you didn't deplete your glycogen by at least 1000-calories, the excess intake will be converted to fat.

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