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Old 11-09-07, 11:42 PM   #1
stevenwk
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Suggestions to lose fat but gain muscle...

Alright so here's how it is...

I'm 21, about 6'3 and i weigh about 235 pounds. Recently i've decided that i need to drop some weight (fat) and gain some muscle. so i'd like some suggestions...

i "work out" about 3 times a week this usually entales playing competitive racquetball with my roomate (who is better than me and more in shape so i get a reall nice work out) and then we also weight lift for anywhere from 30-45 minutes usually targetting our arms, chest, legs and abs.

because i bike my legs are pretty much rock hard and most of my excess fat is in my torso.

I generally eat 3 meals a day which usually are

breakfast- oatmeal
Lunch- turkey sandwich on wheat (just turkey and bread) an apple and pretzels
dinner- usually chicken or tilapia with broccoli, corn, potatoes (red and usually only one)

then after we work out i usually eat yogurt, smoothie, granola and fruit (not all of that but a combo of them)

so my first question is this....i'd like to drop fat and build muscle so what should i be taking for viatamins protein? anything else?

then...should i be switching up what i'm eating, i'm a poor college kid so i usually go for cheap meals and easiest for me to make but if i switch up my meals will this help my body not get used to the same diet?

then...what kind of excercises and weight lifting would you suggest for weight lose.

and lastly just any advice or tips to drop the fat i've been working out for 2 months now and i've dropped about 5 pounds only from 240 to 235 but my guess is that i've gained muscle as well...so anyone have any kind of suggestions?

thanks any would be appreciatted!!!
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Old 11-10-07, 08:37 AM   #2
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I'm a poor college kid too, and it's usually enough to cut down your portions. You can always get by with a little less than you're eating, and it's amazing the difference it can make if you just leave a little bit on your plate.

For weight lifting, try doing more reps with less weight. That seems like kind of a no-brainer, but I've been there, and you don't want to feel like a wuss putting 125 lbs on the bar for a bench press. You burn more weight when you're working for a longer time. When you are doing just a few reps near your max, you're really just building muscle, and not burning much weight.

As for eating after you exercise, try to not do it so much. That's the hardest time for me too, because exercise makes me really hungry, plus I feel more justified in eating more because I just exercised. Try eating something really small, and just drinking a ton of water (I try to stay away from recovery drinks if I haven't been working out for more than 2 hours).

I'm no expert on heart rate, but I know that one problem I have when I do aerobic exercise is that I work too hard at the beginning, and I'm too tired before I get a good workout. I would suggest getting a heart rate monitor, and do a max heart rate test. Then you want to be in the 60%-65% range to burn fat.

Another good thing is doing fasted exercise. Work out in the morning before you eat and you'll be sure to burn some of your stored fat, because your body will usually burn leftover carbs while you sleep.

Also, try working out with just water. It's easier to justify eating more when you work out, or to use energy or recovery drinks. But the truth is, it's all calories. If you're not running/biking for hours on end, you don't absolutely need high protein/carb energy drinks and gels. The may help you perform at a higher level/speed, but if you're trying to lose weight, you shouldn't be too concerned with your speed. Try working out with just water, and it might help.

Good luck. I'm trying to lose weight too, and it's hard. Keep it up, and if you hit another plateau, try something new.
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Old 11-10-07, 09:35 AM   #3
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I would skip the advice about working out in a fasted state. That's simply not backed by science. Metabolism is not as simple as your body converting what you just ate into energy.

The process of gaining muscle mass (hypertrophy) almost always requires a caloric surplus. So the first question is, are you ready to do that? If you are planning to lose a few pounds, then about the best you can do is maintain the muscle mass you already have. The best way to do this is with compound, complex joint/muscle exercises, such as squats, chest presses, pullups, dips, military presses, etc. Avoid exercises, like bicep curls, that focus on relatively small muscles or muscle groups.

If you don't want to lose weight, and can gain some, then you can gain muscle mass with a solid weight lifting program. A caloric surplus of between 250 and 500 calories a day is enough to do that.
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Old 11-10-07, 09:49 AM   #4
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If you want muscle mass, you want fewer reps and more weight. Lift a weight that promotes failure in 5 to 8 reps where failure is defined as not being able to maintain perfect form for that particular exercise. It's a good idea to use a lighter weight and more reps for the first circuit as a warm up.

Reducing calories is definitely the only approach for reducing fat. However, don't Try fro more than a few pounds loss a month if you want to maintain your energy level and physical performance. Ryan in her latest book covers the cautions for weight loss very well.

You don't burn more fat just because you exercise before you eat. I have to again recommend Ryan's book (Sports Nutrition for Endurance Athletes, 2nd edition). It's difficult to separate the weat from the chaff when it comes to fat loss.

Ryan covers supplementation, required only for dietary shortfalls, in detail. That includes the cautions (negative health implications) for over doing the protein thing. Protein requirements are a functiom of size and activity level is not all that high compared to folklore. For example, I'm 185 and pretty active and all I
I need is somewhere between 80 and 90 grams.

Al
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Old 11-10-07, 01:17 PM   #5
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Your diet looks fine, so I wouldn't worry about it too much. There's two basic ways to lose weight, both of which burns off more calories than you take in from food. The first method is to cut back on your calorie-intake. This works slowly up to a certain amount, maybe 0.5lbs/wk. But it also has the side-effect of losing muscle as well since your body will catabolize muscle when you're in a low-glycogen state.

The second method, I like better, because it creates higher weight-loss rates AND spares the muscle-loss and can even gain you muscle. That's to workout more. Do 3-4 days of real endurance riding of 3-4 hours at a time 60-80miles. It's really the 3rd and 4th hours that burn off a lot of fat, about 5x as much per hour as the 1st hour of riding. Then 2-3x a week, do real strength and muscle-building weight workouts. That's low-reps of 1-8 per set. The 1-5 reps builds strength and 5-10 builds size. More reps than that and you might as well just go on a bike ride and do intervals. Weight workouts should only be done for intensities that can't be replicated on the bike.

But this 2nd method is very difficult. It requires a lot of time to burn all that fat; you'll also need to eat more to prevent bonking and muscle-catabolism. Some muscle will always invariably be burnt in the process of endurance workouts, so you build it back up in the gym.
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Old 11-10-07, 02:57 PM   #6
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Your diet looks fine, so I wouldn't worry about it too much. There's two basic ways to lose weight, both of which burns off more calories than you take in from food. The first method is to cut back on your calorie-intake. This works slowly up to a certain amount, maybe 0.5lbs/wk. But it also has the side-effect of losing muscle as well since your body will catabolize muscle when you're in a low-glycogen state.

The second method, I like better, because it creates higher weight-loss rates AND spares the muscle-loss and can even gain you muscle. That's to workout more. Do 3-4 days of real endurance riding of 3-4 hours at a time 60-80miles. It's really the 3rd and 4th hours that burn off a lot of fat, about 5x as much per hour as the 1st hour of riding. Then 2-3x a week, do real strength and muscle-building weight workouts. That's low-reps of 1-8 per set. The 1-5 reps builds strength and 5-10 builds size. More reps than that and you might as well just go on a bike ride and do intervals. Weight workouts should only be done for intensities that can't be replicated on the bike.

I would argue for strength over size as I would think that strong muscles not only protect from injury better, but would have a greater impact on your Basel metabolism or burning more calories at rest. Also, cycling alone is insufficient for overall fitness. I would say work outs at different intensities than what can be replicated on the bike is fine.

Also, strong muscles contribute to endurance as one will stress himself at a smaller percentage of his over all capability and therefore not fatigue as quickly. All important depending on one's requirements/goals of course.

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Old 11-10-07, 04:40 PM   #7
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Just something to keep in mind: some people are meant to be "fat." Now "fat" is relative, but some people naturally are thin (like me), some are big, some people are able to put on muscle easily. If you happen to be one of those individuals who tend to be on the larger end of the spectrum (and you always have been), then there isn't much you can do. You will try to stay lean and your body will fight you every pound of the way. Once you lower the intensity of the workout plan (once you've lost the weight you wanted to lose), your body will just put on more weight.

In terms of your diet - it's good. Don't worry about it. There are plenty who eat worse than you and are thinner and stronger (they might not live as long as you, though).

Fat burning is a time consuming process. You shouldn't be able to lose more than 2lbs a week. Anything more and your body will FREAK. You'll start having that yo-yo effect you've probably heard about. 2lbs a week is healthy.

Now, as already mentioned, there are two ways of losing weight - the "starve yourself" method, and the "blow your brains out" method. These are just the names I've chosen to give them - don't take it seriously. I'm not a fan of cutting on the diet because you run a high chance of not getting in enough nutrients, and you run the risk of breaking down your muscle.

Exercise, really, is the best way to go. As already mentioned, you will want to get a target heart rate of at least 60%. At this rate your body will start to break down your fat stores. Now, you can go above 60%. You'll still burn fat. The only concern is that you'll tire. 80% is a cardio workout. If you can sustain it for more than 20 minutes, you're in good shape for an average adult. Now, having said that, I'm sure a lot of people reading this are starting to flip out 'cause they will go at 80% for hours on end... that's just because they're bike ridin' cardio junkies. If you can do 80% for a while, you'll burn fat (and thus lose weight) and get a good endurance workout.

Now, you posted on a bike forum. I'm a bike enthusiast. Of course I'll recommend biking. The only problems with biking as a main source of exercise is that you could: A) crash, or get hit by a car, or B) lose bone density as there is no stress on your body. B) will only happen, though, if you bike/swim and only bike/swim.

Some sports that really burn weight, that you can do by yourself, include: running, biking, and swimming. Swimming will put on a lot of muscle. It won't be bulk muscle; it'll be that lean sculpted muscle that the ladies like (well, most of them). I don't recommend running so much as it can be really hard on your joints.

You said that you're trying to lose fat AND put on muscle. That's fine and all, but I wouldn't rely on a scale to determine your progress. You already know that muscle weighs more than fat. If you lost 5 lbs in a couple months AND you know that you've put on muscle, you're doing a good job. There are only 4.5 weeks in a month, and thus you can only (safely) lose about 18 lbs of weight in two months. You lost 5, and put on muscle (which means you've lost more than 5 in fat). You don't need our help - you're already on the right track.

In terms of supplements, I'd recommend a multi-vitamin everyday. It helps to make sure you're getting everything you need. If you take something like echinacea regularly, you'll have a lower risk of getting sick which can keep you from exercising and destroy the muscle you've worked so hard to build. Neither are expensive - you'll be able to afford them.

Have fun and keep up the good work!
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Old 11-10-07, 05:41 PM   #8
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wow....you guys are all really helpful. thanks to everyone who posted on here. this is my new plan...

i'm going to start doing cardio more and muscle building less. i'm also going to really watch what i eat...in the past two months i'd eat well but then i'd sneak snacks here and there and have excuses like "it's so much smaller than i used to eat" so i'm going to cut that out. also i've been thinking seriously about going vegetarian again. i used to be vegetarian about a year ago but it resulted in me eating really ****ty so i went back to eating meat because at least then i wasn't just bulking up on carbs and cheese. so this time around i think i'm going to just cut meat out of my diet because i'm eating stuff like steamed veggies, pasta, fruits, nuts with my meals anyways why not just cut the meat out? there's a couple reasons to doing this all not being health reasons obviously. but really i'm going to just work out more. it's real easy for me to work out hard at the beginning of the week and slack come the weekend and eat ****ty which really just ruins my work out.

but thanks for all the advice and support it really did actually help!!!

I will be keeping in touch with this thread every week or so to let everyone know how it's going (if anyone cares) and i'd like to invite anyone else who would like to do so join in!
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Old 11-10-07, 07:01 PM   #9
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Just keep in mind you need protein. If you are exercising, you need protein. Doesn't matter if you're bulking up, or just doing endurance training.

The problem with a non-meat protein is that it's not complete. Lets say you ate a cup of peanuts, which have 10 g of protein in the amount you ate (just keeping numbers simple). You're not actually consuming 10 g of protein that your body can use. The protein is not complete. You need to consume about double the amount of protein in plant matter than you do in meat matter - and that can be hard, since protein is scarce in most plant-based foods.

I'm not saying "don't be a vegetarian." It's up to you if you eat the cow, or what the cow is made of - doesn't really matter to me. It's just you gotta watch for the protein.

If you're cutting out a lot of meat from your meals, but are willing to eat just a little, I highly recommend fish , particularly salmon. Tuna is good, but it's high in mercury, which, overtime, is bad. According to some website I heard of on the forum, if I eat 1 can of tuna, I've consumed 110% of my maximum intake of mercury for the entire week. Salmon works well - high in protein, tastes good, low in mercury. Just expensive - but that's the way it is.

Check out www.nutritiondata.com for information on just about any food - it's a great site.

Have fun!
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Old 11-10-07, 08:46 PM   #10
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i didn't read any of the previous posts but this is what i do. Drink as much water as possible, water will fill you up and it will regulate you to smaller meals.

When you work out, do weights then immediately go to the cardio. I usually do 45 mins of weights then hop on the elliptical/bike (i have a bad knee or i would run) and do intervals for 25 mins, warm up 5 mins, then do 4 intervals, sprint 100% 1 minute and go 60% for 3 minutes.
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Old 11-10-07, 08:53 PM   #11
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Unless I missed it, you don't mention how much you cycle.

You mention that you play racketball and weightlift, and that you do those things 3 days a week.

Well the recommendation these days is 30 minutes of exercise a day to maintain your weight and health, and 60-90 minutes of exercise a day to lose weight. So you play racketball and weightlift 3 days a week ... that's great! Do you cycle the other 4 days?
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Old 11-10-07, 10:07 PM   #12
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i didn't read any of the previous posts but this is what i do. Drink as much water as possible, water will fill you up and it will regulate you to smaller meals.
+1

Water helps your body run more efficiently. You may lose a few pounds just my consuming more water! I would figure a body of your size and activity levels should consume maybe 3L of water a day. I'm only guessing here, though. I Know, though, that I, standing in at 5'8 and 130 lbs need to consume 2.5 - 3 L a day for top efficiency.
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Old 11-10-07, 11:03 PM   #13
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Unless I missed it, you don't mention how much you cycle.

You mention that you play racketball and weightlift, and that you do those things 3 days a week.

Well the recommendation these days is 30 minutes of exercise a day to maintain your weight and health, and 60-90 minutes of exercise a day to lose weight. So you play racketball and weightlift 3 days a week ... that's great! Do you cycle the other 4 days?
i bike about...5 time a week anything from 5 miles a day to 20 miles a day on average
all on a fixed gear so no coasting either.
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Old 11-11-07, 12:14 AM   #14
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i bike about...5 time a week anything from 5 miles a day to 20 miles a day on average
all on a fixed gear so no coasting either.
Well, 5 miles a day is only about 20 minutes. You might try working up to 1 hour 4 days a week, and longer on the 5th day. Then you'll start seeing some weight loss.

Also, remember to keep active in general ... walk whenever you can rather than driving or taking the bus, take the stairs rather than the elevator, stuff like that.
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Old 11-11-07, 07:14 PM   #15
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I would argue for strength over size as I would think that strong muscles not only protect from injury better, but would have a greater impact on your Basel metabolism or burning more calories at rest. Also, cycling alone is insufficient for overall fitness. I would say work outs at different intensities than what can be replicated on the bike is fine.

Also, strong muscles contribute to endurance as one will stress himself at a smaller percentage of his over all capability and therefore not fatigue as quickly. All important depending on one's requirements/goals of course.
Yes, strengths is preferred over size of course. I was making the distinction on low-rep/high-weight workouts that people seem to shun. They all talk about high-rep/low-weight workouts which doesn't do much for building strength. They fear the bulk, but don't realize that low-rep/high-weight are actually have two different workouts and that you can increase strength without necessarily increasing size (especially for beginners).

And yes, stronger muscles do enhance endurance as you'll be exerting them at a much lower percentage of their max and they'll be more efficient with the oxygen and won't fatigue as quickly.

I didn't have enough info on the OP really to make an accurate suggestion. As the ultra-endurance Machka said, I would recommend working up to longer rides in the 2-hour+ range to really burn off the fat. The first hour is really just warm-up.
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Old 11-11-07, 07:57 PM   #16
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Weight workouts should only be done for intensities that can't be replicated on the bike.
OMG that is so obvious how come it never occured to me?
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Old 11-11-07, 11:45 PM   #17
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OMG that is so obvious how come it never occured to me?
does someone always have to be "that guy" on this effing website?

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Old 11-12-07, 06:52 AM   #18
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What's a thay guy?
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Old 11-12-07, 09:26 AM   #19
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What's a thay guy?
someone who feels the need to be obnoxious for absolutely no reason.
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Old 11-12-07, 09:31 AM   #20
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someone who feels the need to be obnoxious for absolutely no reason.
I guess you don't realize that all my first year's fitness gains were directly a result of Danno's advice.
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Old 11-12-07, 11:35 AM   #21
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what were your fitness achievments?
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Old 11-12-07, 03:37 PM   #22
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what were your fitness achievments?
Basically zero to century in a year, two ski marathons after 1.5 years and a running marathon just this past fall. Lost some weight too.
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Old 11-12-07, 05:33 PM   #23
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What's a thay guy?
One who makes Thai food? Yummy....
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Old 11-12-07, 07:01 PM   #24
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ha
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