Article - What causes muscle soreness
04-26-03, 05:45 PM
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Article - What causes muscle soreness
Thought this was interesting. Reproduced here w/out permission from the web-site mentioned at the bottom of the article.
1346 -- 9/2/02
WHAT CAUSES MUSCLE SORENESS?
Gabe Mirkin, M.D.
Your muscles should feel sore on some days after you exercise. If you go out and jog the same two miles at the same pace, day after day, you will never become faster, stronger or have greater endurance. If you stop lifting weights when your muscles start to burn, you won't feel sore on the next day and you will not become stronger. All improvement in any muscle function comes from stressing and recovering. On one day, you go out and exercise hard enough to make your muscles burn during exercise. The burning is a sign that you are damaging your muscles. On the next day, your muscles feel sore because they are damaged and need time to recover. Scientist call this DOMS, delayed onset muscle soreness.
It takes at least eight hours to feel this type of soreness. You finish a workout and feel great; then you get up the next morning and your exercised muscles feel sore. We used to think that next-day muscle soreness is caused by a buildup of lactic acid in muscles, but now we know that lactic acid has nothing to do it. Next-day muscle soreness is caused by damage to the muscle fibers themselves. Muscle biopsies taken on the day after hard exercise show bleeding and disruption of the z-band filaments that hold muscle fibers together as they slide over each other during a contraction.
Scientists can tell how much muscle damage has occurred by measuring blood levels of a muscle enzyme called CPK. CPK is normally found in muscles and is released into the bloodstream when muscles are damaged. Those exercisers who have the highest post-exercise blood levels of CPK often have the most muscle soreness. Using blood CPK levels as a measure of muscle damage, researchers have shown that people who continue to exercise when their muscles feel sore are the ones most likely to feel sore on the next day.
Many people think that cooling down by exercising at a very slow pace after exercising more vigorously, helps to prevent muscle soreness. It doesn't. Cooling down speeds up the removal of lactic acid from muscles, but a buildup of lactic acid does not cause muscle soreness, so cooling down will not help to prevent muscle soreness. Stretching does not prevent soreness either, since post-exercise soreness is not due to contracted muscle fibers.
Next-day muscle soreness should be used as a guide to training, whatever your sport. On one day, go out and exercise right up to the burn, back off when your muscles really start to burn, then pick up the pace again and exercise to the burn. Do this exercise-to-the-burn and recover until your muscles start to feel stiff, and then stop the workout. Depending on how sore your muscles feel, take the next day off or go at a very slow pace. Do not attempt to train for muscle burning again until the soreness has gone away completely. Most athletes take a very hard workout on one day, go easy for one to seven days afterward, and then take a hard workout again. World-class marathon runners run very fast only twice a week. The best weightlifters lift very heavy only once every two weeks. High jumpers jump for height only once a week. Shot putters throw for distance only once a week. Exercise training is done by stressing and recovering.
Health Topics from • The Dr. Gabe Mirkin Show and www.DrMirkin.com • Box 10, Kensington MD 20895
Transcripts of segments of The Dr. Gabe Mirkin Show are provided as a service to listeners at no charge. Dr. Mirkin's opinions and the references cited are for information only, and are not intended to diagnose or prescribe. For your specific diagnosis and treatment, consult your doctor or health care provider.
WHAT CAUSES MUSCLE SORENESS?
Gabe Mirkin, M.D.
Your muscles should feel sore on some days after you exercise. If you go out and jog the same two miles at the same pace, day after day, you will never become faster, stronger or have greater endurance. If you stop lifting weights when your muscles start to burn, you won't feel sore on the next day and you will not become stronger. All improvement in any muscle function comes from stressing and recovering. On one day, you go out and exercise hard enough to make your muscles burn during exercise. The burning is a sign that you are damaging your muscles. On the next day, your muscles feel sore because they are damaged and need time to recover. Scientist call this DOMS, delayed onset muscle soreness.
It takes at least eight hours to feel this type of soreness. You finish a workout and feel great; then you get up the next morning and your exercised muscles feel sore. We used to think that next-day muscle soreness is caused by a buildup of lactic acid in muscles, but now we know that lactic acid has nothing to do it. Next-day muscle soreness is caused by damage to the muscle fibers themselves. Muscle biopsies taken on the day after hard exercise show bleeding and disruption of the z-band filaments that hold muscle fibers together as they slide over each other during a contraction.
Scientists can tell how much muscle damage has occurred by measuring blood levels of a muscle enzyme called CPK. CPK is normally found in muscles and is released into the bloodstream when muscles are damaged. Those exercisers who have the highest post-exercise blood levels of CPK often have the most muscle soreness. Using blood CPK levels as a measure of muscle damage, researchers have shown that people who continue to exercise when their muscles feel sore are the ones most likely to feel sore on the next day.
Many people think that cooling down by exercising at a very slow pace after exercising more vigorously, helps to prevent muscle soreness. It doesn't. Cooling down speeds up the removal of lactic acid from muscles, but a buildup of lactic acid does not cause muscle soreness, so cooling down will not help to prevent muscle soreness. Stretching does not prevent soreness either, since post-exercise soreness is not due to contracted muscle fibers.
Next-day muscle soreness should be used as a guide to training, whatever your sport. On one day, go out and exercise right up to the burn, back off when your muscles really start to burn, then pick up the pace again and exercise to the burn. Do this exercise-to-the-burn and recover until your muscles start to feel stiff, and then stop the workout. Depending on how sore your muscles feel, take the next day off or go at a very slow pace. Do not attempt to train for muscle burning again until the soreness has gone away completely. Most athletes take a very hard workout on one day, go easy for one to seven days afterward, and then take a hard workout again. World-class marathon runners run very fast only twice a week. The best weightlifters lift very heavy only once every two weeks. High jumpers jump for height only once a week. Shot putters throw for distance only once a week. Exercise training is done by stressing and recovering.
Health Topics from • The Dr. Gabe Mirkin Show and www.DrMirkin.com • Box 10, Kensington MD 20895
Transcripts of segments of The Dr. Gabe Mirkin Show are provided as a service to listeners at no charge. Dr. Mirkin's opinions and the references cited are for information only, and are not intended to diagnose or prescribe. For your specific diagnosis and treatment, consult your doctor or health care provider.
04-26-03, 06:02 PM
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Interesting. Verifies my own experience when I weightlift. I lift very heavy about 1x per week, and my body tells me that I should not try that again until the next week. As those muscles are now 63 years old, it seems to take just a bit longer to recover!!
Interestingly, he does not mention overtraining!!
Interestingly, he does not mention overtraining!!
04-26-03, 07:12 PM
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Yes it confirms that this type of burning and soreness are not bad things to avoid but one quibble I might have is that if you rely on DOMS as a sign of an effective workout as you get more experienced and have more muscle developement you will experience less DOMS but can still have an effective workout.
04-26-03, 07:37 PM
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Interesting.
So, why does it feel good when you massage sore muscles? Shouldn't that just increase and irritate the damage?
So, why does it feel good when you massage sore muscles? Shouldn't that just increase and irritate the damage?
04-26-03, 07:41 PM
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Thats true RWTD but by that time the said person should have experience enough to understand each muscles recovery time. We Hope 
...
In the beginning it works well though...
DnvrFox he does infer it when he speaks about training daily and never seeing gains. That is one of the main symptoms of overtraining as training without gaining is a sure fire sign you need rest. This of course assuming you are pushing yourself hard enough
It almost seems like he wrote half an article and forgot to put in some main sections. But then it would become a full blown thesis haha...
but still good read thanx.
...In the beginning it works well though...
DnvrFox he does infer it when he speaks about training daily and never seeing gains. That is one of the main symptoms of overtraining as training without gaining is a sure fire sign you need rest. This of course assuming you are pushing yourself hard enough
It almost seems like he wrote half an article and forgot to put in some main sections. But then it would become a full blown thesis haha...but still good read thanx.
04-26-03, 07:44 PM
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Originally posted by Inkwolf
Interesting.
So, why does it feel good when you massage sore muscles? Shouldn't that just increase and irritate the damage?
Interesting.
So, why does it feel good when you massage sore muscles? Shouldn't that just increase and irritate the damage?
04-29-03, 07:14 PM
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For what it's worth, what I've heard about massaging really blasted muscles is that for recovery, a purging massage is best, which I guess is a gentler massage that helps flush blood, etc., from muscles. Save the deep massage for later when muscle tissue has repaired. That doesn't mean the deep massage wouldn't feel better in the first place, tho'.
05-01-03, 06:43 PM
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I read this interpretation, but I thought I might take the article one step further-
I have to believe that this must have been explained more fully in the radio show from which this exerpt was taken.
What causes DOMS is not believed to be the enzyme, CPK (creatine phosphokinase). The indication of DOMS is the presence of extra CPK in the bloodstream after resistance training. This extra CPK can be in the blood up to 48 hours after your resistance training, but it is not the cause of DOMS.
This is fresh research I just obtained from the convention I attended- DOMS seems to be caused by the actual lengthening phase (eccentric exercise phase) of the resistance training. This lengthening of the muscle pulls the muscle fibers apart, creating a tearing, which leads to DOMS. At the cellular level, when the muscle fibers are torn, the muscle cell releases CPK from it's cytoplasm (or sarcolemma, if you want to be more technical) into the bloodstream (along with other substances, such as calcium), and that's why you see a an increase of CPK into the bloodstream. It seems as though the increase of calcium in the bloodstream may activate the immune response by attracting all those white blood cells typically seen in an inflammitory response, which also adds to that feeling of soreness experienced in DOMS.
With all that said, would massage help to alleviate DOMS? No. All massage does is "aggrevate" the torn muscle fibers, which may result in a further release of these electrolytes and the CPK (aggrevate is the only word I can think of to describe this phenomenon) into the tissues and blood. The lecturer showed us a picture of a healthy (pre-exercise) slide of muscle cross section, then showed another cross section of a muscle after undergoing repeated exercise- it looked yucky- like a Monet painting or something along those lines. It was a big 'ole mess compared to the healthy (as in pre-exercise) muscle cross section. Does massage feel good? He!! yes, it does! But does it really do any good for DOMS? He!! no. For this reason, if you're experiencing DOMS, don't expect massage to do the trick.
What will help alleviate the symptoms of DOMS is ibuprofin- ibuprofin typically works by reducing the inflammatory effects caused by the release of free radicals and calcium into the tissues.
Here's where I begin to theorize based on what I've read- can you still work out while undergoing DOMS? I think so. If you can minimize the eccentric part of the exercise, you could continue to exercise. However, this would be extremely difficult to do, but if you severely lighten your training load, you could get away with it. Often, when I am experiencing DOMS, such as when running hard and the next day, feeling muscle "irritation", I begin walking with short, jerky movements, which feels soooooooo much better than walking with longer strides. I am (subconsciously) avoiding the eccentric phase of the walking by shortening my steps and walking a bit slower than normal. Of course, everything thinks I'm just trying out a new shuffle or something, but that's not it at all! I just can't get my muscles to lengthen enough to take full steps. I'm too sore. The best thing you can do is lay off the training until the DOMS symptoms disappear, then you can resume your training again.
Now, as far as lactic acid buildup, you may feel that "burning" sensation during or just after a high intensity training session, but that is from the buildup of lactate in the blood while exercising. Remembering that fat is only burned in the presence of oxygen, when the body's demand for oxygen exceeds what is being taken in, anaerobic threshold is reached, and the body begins using other energy sources in the body to meet the demands of the body.
There is an enzyme in the fat burning process that drives the Krebs (or citric acid cycle) Cycle- the Krebs cycle is the mechanism in the body's cells that facilitates fat breakdown to ATP+ carbon dioxide +water. This enzyme is called pyruvate. It is an enzyme that is used early in the Krebs cycle, and when oxygen is present, the oxygen will react with ions outside of the mitochondria (mitochondria are structures, or organelles located in the muscle cells)- this ion, which reacts with the oxygen will then allow the pyruvate begin the Krebs cycle when the pyruvate enters the mitochondria, resulting in the production of ATP- the molecules of energy needed to contract the muscle to do further work.
When oxygen is lacking, the Krebs cycle is largely arrested (there will always be a small amount of pyruvate that will enter the Krebs cycle because the only time we don't have oxygen present is when we die! which is what they call rigor mortis...), and the pyruvate is converted to lactic acid through glycoloysis, which is inefficient, because the glycolysis breakdown produces less ATP. This process (or the steps involved, rather) is short- and when the body is in anaerobic mode, it needs ATP right NOW, so it takes glucose from wherever it can get glucose quickly. Fats take a long time to break down, BUT we all know that glucose is located in its free form in different parts of the body- like in the muscles, in the liver, etc. The body will grab these free glucose molecules and use it instead to undergo glycolysis, resulting in the end product of lactic acid and only a few paltry ATP. This system is largely inefficient, as a lot more ATP is required for high intensity demands, so eventually, you will either slow down to the point where you will bring in more oxygen, which will lead to more fat metabolism, or you will cease completely from exercise.... whichever comes first. BUT... this buildup of lactate in the muscles creates an acidic environment, which causes the pain you feel in the legs (burning sensation) when the lactic acid builds in the legs. As soon as you get enough oxygen in the legs, the oxygen will then cause the krebs cycle to resume again, and the lactic acid will be used in the krebs cycle to begin burning fats again. As the lactic acid slowly is converted to pyruvate and enters the krebs cycle, you'll notice the burning sensation leaving the legs. That is why lactic acid buildup could not occur because of lactic acid buildup.
Here's the catch in the difference between lactic acid reuse for krebs and DOMS.... the CPK enzyme, which is used to convert ADP to ATP is USED in the conversion of lactic acid back to pyruvate to produce the ATP.... the basic reaction happening during Krebs is:
ADP +P (with CPK present)-> ATP
Soooooo..... there is not an excess of CPK in the blood when the lactic acid is reused. DOMS is different (re-read the explanation of why CPK is in the blood and do the side by side comparison).
Overtraining has something to do with DOMS, but it ranges beyond that- overtraining is simply not allowing the body enough time to recover from strenuous activity. Overtraining messes with your hormonal levels, releases free radicals into the bloodstream, increases the stress hormones into the body by overstimulating the adrenal cortex, and can cause symptoms of depression, and even sickness in some cases. You'll often feel a run down feeling, accompanied by some other feelings of sickness. When I'm at my most overtrained, I'm feeling like I want to vomit, I feel like I need to sleep all the time, and I am sore and achy. The symptoms vary with different people, but you will experience some of these symptoms. Overtraining can be experienced for a short time if you catch it early, but if you're pushing yourself constantly, the symptoms will intensify until your body makes you slow down, and that's no fun. We all know better- don't overtrain!
I don't know if this gives a little more clarification- this guy probably did go into detail on his radio show, since this is just an exerpt, but some parts of the release seem a bit incomplete.
My thesis in a nutshell... in part, thanks to the convention I just attended!
Koffee
I have to believe that this must have been explained more fully in the radio show from which this exerpt was taken.
What causes DOMS is not believed to be the enzyme, CPK (creatine phosphokinase). The indication of DOMS is the presence of extra CPK in the bloodstream after resistance training. This extra CPK can be in the blood up to 48 hours after your resistance training, but it is not the cause of DOMS.
This is fresh research I just obtained from the convention I attended- DOMS seems to be caused by the actual lengthening phase (eccentric exercise phase) of the resistance training. This lengthening of the muscle pulls the muscle fibers apart, creating a tearing, which leads to DOMS. At the cellular level, when the muscle fibers are torn, the muscle cell releases CPK from it's cytoplasm (or sarcolemma, if you want to be more technical) into the bloodstream (along with other substances, such as calcium), and that's why you see a an increase of CPK into the bloodstream. It seems as though the increase of calcium in the bloodstream may activate the immune response by attracting all those white blood cells typically seen in an inflammitory response, which also adds to that feeling of soreness experienced in DOMS.
With all that said, would massage help to alleviate DOMS? No. All massage does is "aggrevate" the torn muscle fibers, which may result in a further release of these electrolytes and the CPK (aggrevate is the only word I can think of to describe this phenomenon) into the tissues and blood. The lecturer showed us a picture of a healthy (pre-exercise) slide of muscle cross section, then showed another cross section of a muscle after undergoing repeated exercise- it looked yucky- like a Monet painting or something along those lines. It was a big 'ole mess compared to the healthy (as in pre-exercise) muscle cross section. Does massage feel good? He!! yes, it does! But does it really do any good for DOMS? He!! no. For this reason, if you're experiencing DOMS, don't expect massage to do the trick.
What will help alleviate the symptoms of DOMS is ibuprofin- ibuprofin typically works by reducing the inflammatory effects caused by the release of free radicals and calcium into the tissues.
Here's where I begin to theorize based on what I've read- can you still work out while undergoing DOMS? I think so. If you can minimize the eccentric part of the exercise, you could continue to exercise. However, this would be extremely difficult to do, but if you severely lighten your training load, you could get away with it. Often, when I am experiencing DOMS, such as when running hard and the next day, feeling muscle "irritation", I begin walking with short, jerky movements, which feels soooooooo much better than walking with longer strides. I am (subconsciously) avoiding the eccentric phase of the walking by shortening my steps and walking a bit slower than normal. Of course, everything thinks I'm just trying out a new shuffle or something, but that's not it at all! I just can't get my muscles to lengthen enough to take full steps. I'm too sore. The best thing you can do is lay off the training until the DOMS symptoms disappear, then you can resume your training again.
Now, as far as lactic acid buildup, you may feel that "burning" sensation during or just after a high intensity training session, but that is from the buildup of lactate in the blood while exercising. Remembering that fat is only burned in the presence of oxygen, when the body's demand for oxygen exceeds what is being taken in, anaerobic threshold is reached, and the body begins using other energy sources in the body to meet the demands of the body.
There is an enzyme in the fat burning process that drives the Krebs (or citric acid cycle) Cycle- the Krebs cycle is the mechanism in the body's cells that facilitates fat breakdown to ATP+ carbon dioxide +water. This enzyme is called pyruvate. It is an enzyme that is used early in the Krebs cycle, and when oxygen is present, the oxygen will react with ions outside of the mitochondria (mitochondria are structures, or organelles located in the muscle cells)- this ion, which reacts with the oxygen will then allow the pyruvate begin the Krebs cycle when the pyruvate enters the mitochondria, resulting in the production of ATP- the molecules of energy needed to contract the muscle to do further work.
When oxygen is lacking, the Krebs cycle is largely arrested (there will always be a small amount of pyruvate that will enter the Krebs cycle because the only time we don't have oxygen present is when we die! which is what they call rigor mortis...), and the pyruvate is converted to lactic acid through glycoloysis, which is inefficient, because the glycolysis breakdown produces less ATP. This process (or the steps involved, rather) is short- and when the body is in anaerobic mode, it needs ATP right NOW, so it takes glucose from wherever it can get glucose quickly. Fats take a long time to break down, BUT we all know that glucose is located in its free form in different parts of the body- like in the muscles, in the liver, etc. The body will grab these free glucose molecules and use it instead to undergo glycolysis, resulting in the end product of lactic acid and only a few paltry ATP. This system is largely inefficient, as a lot more ATP is required for high intensity demands, so eventually, you will either slow down to the point where you will bring in more oxygen, which will lead to more fat metabolism, or you will cease completely from exercise.... whichever comes first. BUT... this buildup of lactate in the muscles creates an acidic environment, which causes the pain you feel in the legs (burning sensation) when the lactic acid builds in the legs. As soon as you get enough oxygen in the legs, the oxygen will then cause the krebs cycle to resume again, and the lactic acid will be used in the krebs cycle to begin burning fats again. As the lactic acid slowly is converted to pyruvate and enters the krebs cycle, you'll notice the burning sensation leaving the legs. That is why lactic acid buildup could not occur because of lactic acid buildup.
Here's the catch in the difference between lactic acid reuse for krebs and DOMS.... the CPK enzyme, which is used to convert ADP to ATP is USED in the conversion of lactic acid back to pyruvate to produce the ATP.... the basic reaction happening during Krebs is:
ADP +P (with CPK present)-> ATP
Soooooo..... there is not an excess of CPK in the blood when the lactic acid is reused. DOMS is different (re-read the explanation of why CPK is in the blood and do the side by side comparison).
Overtraining has something to do with DOMS, but it ranges beyond that- overtraining is simply not allowing the body enough time to recover from strenuous activity. Overtraining messes with your hormonal levels, releases free radicals into the bloodstream, increases the stress hormones into the body by overstimulating the adrenal cortex, and can cause symptoms of depression, and even sickness in some cases. You'll often feel a run down feeling, accompanied by some other feelings of sickness. When I'm at my most overtrained, I'm feeling like I want to vomit, I feel like I need to sleep all the time, and I am sore and achy. The symptoms vary with different people, but you will experience some of these symptoms. Overtraining can be experienced for a short time if you catch it early, but if you're pushing yourself constantly, the symptoms will intensify until your body makes you slow down, and that's no fun. We all know better- don't overtrain!
I don't know if this gives a little more clarification- this guy probably did go into detail on his radio show, since this is just an exerpt, but some parts of the release seem a bit incomplete.
My thesis in a nutshell... in part, thanks to the convention I just attended!
Koffee
05-01-03, 08:45 PM
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Thank you for the review of the Krebs cycle. It's been 11 years since i had to deal with it to such detail.
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https://www.pnhp.org/
05-01-03, 09:14 PM
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Ohmygosh, CB!
I have to review it at least 3 times a year- that's how many conventions I attend every single year just to keep all this stuff straight!
I'll tell you what- let's get the doctors into town for the next fitness convention with all of us aerobics instructors. Sometimes the lecturers are even too technical for the instructors, but as long as I get the gist of it, I can do more self-study on my own and figure out later on what they're talking about.
Hope it helped some people.
Koffee
I have to review it at least 3 times a year- that's how many conventions I attend every single year just to keep all this stuff straight!
I'll tell you what- let's get the doctors into town for the next fitness convention with all of us aerobics instructors. Sometimes the lecturers are even too technical for the instructors, but as long as I get the gist of it, I can do more self-study on my own and figure out later on what they're talking about.
Hope it helped some people.
Koffee
05-02-03, 10:12 AM
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Thanx for the read Koffee. I haven't read an article like that since I was training to be a trainer and attended a couple of conventions back in Ontario. Thanx for clarifying
02-19-08, 10:48 AM
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pyruvate
all I know is that all enzymes are named with terms ending in ...ase, so are you sure pyruvate is an enzyme? The "Pyretherins" are simply any inflamamatory biochemicals that induce a heating effect, and a digestive process...this seems to be the root here. Were seeing a lot of medical terms but biochemistry is fairly beyond the scope of any public forum and there are no reccomendations here, what do do! thats the bottom line, and what helps.
What I want to know is how the sleep cycle with body cooling triggers all this. I have a stiff back and its always bad in the morning, begins hurting with sleep onset. And if I take ibuprofin at night it helps a lot, I will wake up with virtuallly no stiffness and pain. but this may prevent the needed repair cycle in the bodies natural rythms..this is why one shouldnt eat at night as well. YOu dont want to encourage pyritherin activity which is a digestive process same as inflammation. And also why ibuprofin will make you sluggish and gain weight, it blocks digestive and metabolic process...but when to take it may be a majoy key to effective use and minimizing side effects
Please mail me with any studies or details.
What I want to know is how the sleep cycle with body cooling triggers all this. I have a stiff back and its always bad in the morning, begins hurting with sleep onset. And if I take ibuprofin at night it helps a lot, I will wake up with virtuallly no stiffness and pain. but this may prevent the needed repair cycle in the bodies natural rythms..this is why one shouldnt eat at night as well. YOu dont want to encourage pyritherin activity which is a digestive process same as inflammation. And also why ibuprofin will make you sluggish and gain weight, it blocks digestive and metabolic process...but when to take it may be a majoy key to effective use and minimizing side effects
Please mail me with any studies or details.
02-20-08, 07:17 AM
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Interesting article. I like to feel sore the next day after weight training or I feel I haven't worked out hard enough. As I get older (54), I have to be careful to not have joint pain, just muscle soreness.
02-20-08, 02:20 PM
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Ok, translating for us civilians, is it possible to increase muscle strength or mass without some degree of DOMS or related activities?
In other words, is DOMS a necessary requirement, or overkill?
In other words, is DOMS a necessary requirement, or overkill?
02-26-08, 10:48 AM
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In my experience you have to get sore to get stronger. Ever hear "no pain, no gain?" It might be possible to maintain a particular strength level without hurting, but I doubt even that. You know, that's the reason most people get weaker as they get older. They don't do anything that hurts, so they slowly go downhill. That's the only reason. There are grandmothers who compete in powerlifting. There are even geezers who can still TT. But it's going to hurt.
02-26-08, 11:51 AM
#21
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02-26-08, 12:44 PM
#22
just another gosling
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But time-to-exhaustion has nothing to do with DOMS. We already knew lactate has nothing to do with it. See OP article.
Interestingly, I seldom have DOMS after a hard group ride, though I almost always will after a tough trainer or weight lifting session. I think during a long group ride the effort is spread out so that by the time it's time to go really hard, your muscles no longer generate enough force to tear themselves apart. Or maybe, even though HR soars, the force measured at the pedal is just not that great because of cadence. YMMV.
02-26-08, 01:16 PM
#23
Senior Member
Agree with all. In my case I like to think that I'm riding with "suplesse". 
02-26-08, 01:54 PM
#24
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Koffee,
Actually the break down of fat in the body is done in a 2 step process. The fat molecule is a polymer of carbon atoms. The fat molecule reduced by beta oxidation into 2 carbon fragments of Acetyl COA. The process generates about 13 ATP per carbon atom (sort of the energy currency of the cell). The AcetylCOA is fed into the KREBS cycle and generates about another 8 ATP per carbon atom. So most of the energy released is done so in Beta Oxidation and not the KREBS cycle. If you want to peruse a fairly detailed and decent write up on both processes, Wikipedia has a pretty good summary (that mildly surprised me).
It is usually thought that BONKING (that slowing down that one has in a long ride) is the result of depletion of carbohydrates. After bonking, one is forced to get all of one's energy to drive the muscles from fat. Burning fat requires more oxygen per ATP released (about 2X as much) as burning carbohydrates. It is oxygen in the muscles that limits the amount of energy the muscles can generate during exertion or at least that is the notion.
As far as muscle soreness, the notion that muscles are damaged in exercise seems plausible. People used to say it was lactic acid build up, but one would think that lactate would be converted to something else or taken away in the blood stream pretty quickly for that one to be true.
I wonder about the photos. Did the researchers get volunteers, biopsy their muscles, have them exercise, wait for muscle soreness and then biopsy them again? After that, one could take the biospied tissue prepare it and do a scanning electon micrograph (doing this is a monumental pain in the rear). But who would volunteer to do this?
The notion that muscle damage during exercise causes muscle soreness is certainly plausible and one that I can readily believe. But actually getting experimental evidence to prove it is a whole other proposition. Often in these sorts of things, there just is not the money or the willing volunteers to do these things.
Actually the break down of fat in the body is done in a 2 step process. The fat molecule is a polymer of carbon atoms. The fat molecule reduced by beta oxidation into 2 carbon fragments of Acetyl COA. The process generates about 13 ATP per carbon atom (sort of the energy currency of the cell). The AcetylCOA is fed into the KREBS cycle and generates about another 8 ATP per carbon atom. So most of the energy released is done so in Beta Oxidation and not the KREBS cycle. If you want to peruse a fairly detailed and decent write up on both processes, Wikipedia has a pretty good summary (that mildly surprised me).
It is usually thought that BONKING (that slowing down that one has in a long ride) is the result of depletion of carbohydrates. After bonking, one is forced to get all of one's energy to drive the muscles from fat. Burning fat requires more oxygen per ATP released (about 2X as much) as burning carbohydrates. It is oxygen in the muscles that limits the amount of energy the muscles can generate during exertion or at least that is the notion.
As far as muscle soreness, the notion that muscles are damaged in exercise seems plausible. People used to say it was lactic acid build up, but one would think that lactate would be converted to something else or taken away in the blood stream pretty quickly for that one to be true.
I wonder about the photos. Did the researchers get volunteers, biopsy their muscles, have them exercise, wait for muscle soreness and then biopsy them again? After that, one could take the biospied tissue prepare it and do a scanning electon micrograph (doing this is a monumental pain in the rear). But who would volunteer to do this?
The notion that muscle damage during exercise causes muscle soreness is certainly plausible and one that I can readily believe. But actually getting experimental evidence to prove it is a whole other proposition. Often in these sorts of things, there just is not the money or the willing volunteers to do these things.
03-02-08, 09:06 AM
#25
would rather be biking
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Experimental evidence is actually the easy part. The way to see that muscle is being damaged by lactic acid build up is by urine sample. When you're sore, you'll have a positive nitrogen balance (from muscle being broken down) and the kidneys will work to excrete the nitrogen via urine.
