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  1. #1
    Its a Lemming thing... jester69's Avatar
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    Soy especially bad for men?

    Hi all,

    I have been reading up on soy today. Apparently, it is bad for both men and women in that it has been proven to cause brain shrinkage and thyroid issues.

    Now I found out that it can also cause PERMANENT loss of testicular cells, great! Apparently the phytoestrogens (aka isoflavones) in 100g of soy are the equivalent of taking a birth control pill.

    talks about this at the top

    So, anyone else read about this before, I searched on google for
    thyroid soy danger and testosterone soy danger and that article I quoted above isn't apparently an isoplated one.

    anyone know what to make of all this?

    take care,

    Jester
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  2. #2
    opinionated SOB cycletourist's Avatar
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    So I guess soy milk is just as bad as the real thing? Bummer.

  3. #3
    Its a Lemming thing... jester69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cycletourist
    So I guess soy milk is just as bad as the real thing? Bummer.
    reading this has made me think next time i'm at the store i'll get rice milk instead of soy. Also, i'm going to try Seitan (wheat based) protein stuff. Oh, and eat more meat. But, My GF is a vegetarian , so, most meals have to be meat free to some degree.

    Jester
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  4. #4
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    Noooooooooo!!!!!!!!

    What I've read in the research is that the medical professionals are suggesting that men with prostate cancer should eat more soy, as the estrogen will compete with the testosterone for the receptor sites where testosterone will bind. This will actually help the cancer patients, since it seems that an overabundance of testosterone in prostate cancer patients aggregraves the condition.

    Otherwise, I got the hint that a healthy man would have to eat A LOT of soy for it to adversely affect them. I wouldn't worry.

    I just got back from yet another convention and spent a good deal of time in seminars for nutrition. Our lecturers did say that it is better to get your soy from plant derivatives than from the isoflavin supplements- so be sure to drink more soy and rice milk, eat more soy beans, and have more tofu.

    Proven how? Remember, if it were that harmful, it would be more likely to be removed from the shelves by the FDA or at least written up in JAMA or some kind of health threat issued by the AMA or some other organization like that. There is a whole continent of people with many more people than what we have that rely on soy in its natural state as a major food source than us, and they aren't dropping dead from eating soy, nor are they having thyroid or brain shrinkage issues. They (Asians, as in, the ones who live in Asia) live healthier lives and have less obesity problems than we have in the USA too. I suppose they account for that in their reports in the links posted in the first post of this thread?

    Koffee

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    A study of Japanese men showed that a diet, high in soy protein was associated with low testosterone levels.
    Given excellent english skills like that, how could the author possibly be wrong?

    Everything I've been able to find on the net (including all of the references in that article) were from 2001 or earlier.

    Also, the fact that almost every article in the thyroid search contains (verbatim) the complete sentance "This is not information that the powerful and profitable U.S. soy industry wants you to know. " suggests to me that someone anti-soy wrote up a "press release" and sent it off to a bunch of "health news" outlets, who released it with minor alterations.

    Sounds like a load of crap to me.

  6. #6
    Its a Lemming thing... jester69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koffee Brown
    Proven how? Remember, if it were that harmful, it would be more likely to be removed from the shelves by the FDA or at least written up in JAMA or some kind of health threat issued by the AMA or some other organization like that.
    Koffee
    Well, the still sell cigarettes and booze. Those are harmful & allowed to be sold...

    In any event, here is a link to pubmed with the studies on brain shrinkage:
    brain shrinkage

    Here is a study that shows the testosterone link a bit:
    Plasma testosterone and androstenedione levels were significantly lower in the animals fed the phytoestrogen-rich diet compared with animals fed the phytoestrogen-free diet

    But, I found that japanese mens study & it is only a slight corelation, but american vegetarians eat more soy than your average japanese man. In japan soy is more of a condiment.

    the study

    So, the sites found on google may mainly be wackos, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater either.

    I don't really have an opinion one way or the other on if soy is harmful or good, but there seems to be enough objective evidence to prod me to investigate more, heh.

    take care,

    Jester

    EDIT: fixed bad link
    Last edited by jester69; 11-10-03 at 01:11 PM.
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  7. #7
    Jungle lady cbhungry's Avatar
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    Let's not forget the most populous country in the world (china) also has the most soy consumption. I also don't see alot of brain shrunken ******* coming out of that country.

    With that said, too much of a good thing, can be too much of a good thing. Like anything else, soy should be ingested in moderation. I like how all the studies cited were in animals ranging from quails to sheep and cheetahs. Alot of animal research, although a good and necessary step in application towards humans, have in the past produced completely different results once the drug or nutrient was applied to humans. Many times producing completely different benefits or harm. (the classic is the saccharin study in rats which caused cancer and then we found out human kidneys did not contain the enzyme that converted saccharin into a carcinogen and the american cancer society officially removed it from its carcinogen list.) I would not shrug off the data. Though Japanese men and women have lower rates of reproductive cancers ie: testicular and prostate and breast, it has higher rates of thyroid cancer (prevalence of 30%), esopheageal cancers and gastric cancers. Is it related to soy consumption or high fish consumption etc. There is documented clinical evidence that soy can impair absorption of vital minerals such as zinc, an important brain nutrient, so yeah, too much of a good thing can be harmful.

    As for the estrogenic effects of soy, there are epidemeological data that vegetarian women have higher rates of males with hypospadia (underdeveloped male genitalia) probably due to the higher phytoestrogen in utero environment and the monks in china eat tons of it since it seems to curb their "sexual " desires. However, it sure doesn't seem to affect the rest of the population who are still breeding like rabbits and tons of abortions are preformed (due to the one child policy.)
    Last edited by cbhungry; 11-10-03 at 11:04 AM.
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  8. #8
    wonderer, wanderer gonesh9's Avatar
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    Soy certainly isn't the miracle food that the industry wants you to think, but I don't think it's harmful in moderation, either. As a vegan, so many alternative foods that I have as an option are soy based. My girlfriend and I always make an effort to find foods made from other plants first, so we don't become too dependent on one food source. There are plenty of other options such as seitan, almond, mushroom, and rice products. Of course there are always whole grains, vegetables, and fruit, which give me everything I need to be healthy.

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    Mercrudgeon Bikedud's Avatar
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    Great. Just when I started drinking soy milk I find out it will help me get in touch with my feminine side, even if I don't care to. My brain is probably too far gone anyway. Too many years of Grad school.

    I guess I will have to stick with YOHOO. Please don't tell me Yohoo is gonna kill me too.
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    Its a Lemming thing... jester69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikedud
    I guess I will have to stick with YOHOO. Please don't tell me Yohoo is gonna kill me too.

    Dead as a doorknob. (just kidding)

    Rice milk is supposed to be pretty good for you. I'm going to buy some & try it tonight.

    Take care,

    Jester
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  11. #11
    wonderer, wanderer gonesh9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikedud
    Great. Just when I started drinking soy milk I find out it will help me get in touch with my feminine side, even if I don't care to. My brain is probably too far gone anyway. Too many years of Grad school.

    I guess I will have to stick with YOHOO. Please don't tell me Yohoo is gonna kill me too.
    Whatever health risks you may find with soy, it is still mush safer than cow's milk for human consumption.

    If you're looking for alternatives, though, I much prefer almond milk to rice milk.

  12. #12
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    A study of Japanese men showed that a diet, high in soy protein was associated with low testosterone levels.
    Does that mean that if I drink a lot of soy that maybe the new hair that I am now growing on my BACK will stop growing? That would cool! I love getting older.

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    Soy is bad? Not really... it definitely has it's uses.

    The 3 isoflavones in question have weak estrogenic properties but have a high affinity for the estrogen receptor.

    So, there action can mean a few things. If you have high endogenous estrogen levels, the soy isoflavones can compete for the receptor, blocking some estrogen, lowering the estrogenic affect on your body.

    If you have low endogenous estrogen (a healthy male), the isoflavones will bond to the receptor and cause a slight increase in estrogenic activity.

    As you see in the first instance, soy can actually be used in the same sense as clomiphene citrate (but it has properties closer to that of nolvadex).

    Basically, IMHO, soy is just not an optimum source of protein (and overall nutrition). It's not bad persay, but it's not the best choice you could be making. Who wants increased estrogenic effects (retain water, E fat etc)?

    Brain shrinkage? Thyroid issues? I haven't heard of those ones...

  14. #14
    truthisntalwayswanttohear jacob's Avatar
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    Soy is ok in moderately small quantities, in my experience.
    The problems I have experienced are:
    the quality of the soy makes a great difference, which might be why soy is organic in many cases.(organically grown),
    so...
    if you eat too much of it, you don't know (and might not want to know) what is going on.
    "Abstain from beans." - Pythagoras, Greek philosopher&mathematician

    Jacob

  15. #15
    Just ride :-D rjtokyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jester69
    But, I found that japanese mens study & it is only a slight corelation, but american vegetarians eat more soy than your average japanese man. In japan soy is more of a condiment.
    Whoever's trying to assert this is badly misinformed. I've lived in Japan for more than 16 years now and here in Japan soy is NOT just a condiment, it's a staple just about as much as rice and fish. Tofu is commonly eaten every day in meals you get everywhere from 7-11 to fast food restaurants to even fancy restaurants, not to mention the large sections they take up in the grocery stores. Eda-mame is soybeans cut right off the bushes, boiled, and eaten as a common vegetable. Inari-zushi is one of the most commen fast foods, and it's from soy. The list goes on and on.

    As for the health of Japanese, just spend a little time here and you'll see in how much better shape the average Japanese is compared to the average American. We get American visitors frequently, and a very common phenomenon is how tired they get just trying to keep up with the typical Japanese lifestyle of not driving, walking and cycling everywhere, climbing up and down train station stairs, etc. Obviously there are many more factors than just soy in their diets, but what soy reflects is lower fat (compared to meat) vegetable protein, and it's ingested regularly in a much more natural, unprocessed form, not tablets or pills you pop from a bottle. Just my $.02. Appreciate the dialogue .

  16. #16
    truthisntalwayswanttohear jacob's Avatar
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    There's no such thing as a bad day riding.

    "...that we might have LIFE, and have it ABUNDANTLY!" - (John 10:10)

    (see also)
    Adam d. 930 yrs. old
    Seth d. 912 yrs. old
    Enosh d. 905 yrs. old

    etc.
    Even Jacob lived to 150.
    I doubt any of these ate soy.

    The typical Japanese does not live to even the age of Jacob at death, that is, I am referring to the years before Christ that Jacob lived during.

    Jacob

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    Quote Originally Posted by rjtokyo
    Whoever's trying to assert this is badly misinformed. I've lived in Japan for more than 16 years now and here in Japan soy is NOT just a condiment, it's a staple just about as much as rice and fish. Tofu is commonly eaten every day in meals you get everywhere from 7-11 to fast food restaurants to even fancy restaurants, not to mention the large sections they take up in the grocery stores. Eda-mame is soybeans cut right off the bushes, boiled, and eaten as a common vegetable. Inari-zushi is one of the most commen fast foods, and it's from soy. The list goes on and on.

    As for the health of Japanese, just spend a little time here and you'll see in how much better shape the average Japanese is compared to the average American. We get American visitors frequently, and a very common phenomenon is how tired they get just trying to keep up with the typical Japanese lifestyle of not driving, walking and cycling everywhere, climbing up and down train station stairs, etc. Obviously there are many more factors than just soy in their diets, but what soy reflects is lower fat (compared to meat) vegetable protein, and it's ingested regularly in a much more natural, unprocessed form, not tablets or pills you pop from a bottle. Just my $.02. Appreciate the dialogue .
    I think the point he was trying to make was that when someone goes 'soy' in the US (or Australia, UK etc), they seem to go overboard. Rather than have it as an option, it becomes the basis for their nutrition, which is a monumental mistake. These people consume large percentage of soy compared to those in Japan (and the rest of Asia for that matter), they also consume more aggregate calories which only skews the information further. The study is an interesting one, but it definitely not definitive.

    I think of soy in this way:
    A low fat, medium value protein source with a questionable taste (love/hate it seems). Then, if you were eating a low fat diet, it would be ideal. If you can't drink milk or choose not to and you enjoy milk, again go for it. If you're female, I would definitely go for it. Just keep in mind it does have it's downfalls; for example if you were interested in male HRT the first thing would be to cut out all things which would promote an positive estrogen balance and increase free testosterone levels naturally.

    Every food has a use. Just like anything in life, foods should be utilised in regard to these strengths and weaknesses. Unfortunately, we as a society, attach emotions to food. I will never understand why people can't see themselves doing this, but it will guarantee you end up obese.

    A soy post ends up in a rant about the culture of food in Western civilizations. That's what happens when it is 40 degrees C (100F) and you are rostered in the lab all day >

  18. #18
    Just ride :-D rjtokyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Croak
    I think the point he was trying to make was that when someone goes 'soy' in the US (or Australia, UK etc), they seem to go overboard. Rather than have it as an option, it becomes the basis for their nutrition, which is a monumental mistake. These people consume large percentage of soy compared to those in Japan (and the rest of Asia for that matter), they also consume more aggregate calories which only skews the information further.
    Thanks for the clarification Croak. Gotcha.

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    In my lifetime, coffee has been good for you; bad for you; good for you; did neither harm nor good; bad for you; good for you; and, now, it is generally bad for you., again.

    The same can be said for alcohol. Remember the recent stories about a glass or two of wine per day being beneficial to cardiovascular health? Well, it turns out that the French, who, on average, have a glass or two of wine per day, have a much higher incidence of liver cancer than any other country in the world. So, your heart will be so much better at pumping blood to a cancerous liver! Wonderful!

    Eat wisely, don't over indulge and live long and prosper.
    "My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."

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    Quote Originally Posted by rjtokyo
    As for the health of Japanese, just spend a little time here and you'll see in how much better shape the average Japanese is compared to the average American. We get American visitors frequently, and a very common phenomenon is how tired they get just trying to keep up with the typical Japanese lifestyle of not driving, walking and cycling everywhere, climbing up and down train station stairs, etc. Obviously there are many more factors than just soy in their diets, but what soy reflects is lower fat (compared to meat) vegetable protein, and it's ingested regularly in a much more natural, unprocessed form, not tablets or pills you pop from a bottle. Just my $.02. Appreciate the dialogue .
    "Health" is a relative term. While Japan has less incident of one type of cancer, they have higher incidences of other types of cancer. It is impossible to say the average Japanese is in much better shape then the average American, especially since the number of smokers is orders of magnitude higher than the U.S.

    Second, who, pray tell, is the average Japanese? Who is the "average" American? What is their exact health status? You must also know that the Japanese are the most over-medicated population in the world, due to the way prescription drugs are dispensed.

    The rest is culture. Sure, American tourists cannot keep up running up and down train station stairs, dodging the taxis and trucks, as they hurry to spending long hours at a job, then back down the subway stairs. I would be willing to bet my next pay check that Americans living in Japan keep up nicely.

    P.S. I lived in Japan for eight years in the 1960's and 1970's and my wife is Japanese. I love Japan and enjoyed each and ever minute I lived there. I would love to live there again. But, to compare one country's health against another based on tourists keeping up the the natives is the quintessential apples and oranges argument.
    "My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."

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    Senior Member Lonestar1's Avatar
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    While I think the point of this thread was meant as a "public service" to we who may be uninformed,misinformed,etc...people GET A GRIP! Remember the word...moderation? "You want that
    supersized?" Someone else already stated..."too much of anything is not good or you".
    Bicycling causes men to be impotent. Or so one "study" says. Hasn't stopped you from riding that bike every chance you get yet has it? Live your life to the fullest & enjoy everyday you have. My $.02.
    "...You ask me what I like about
    Texas? Well I'd tell ya', but we could
    be here...all night long."

  22. #22
    Its a Lemming thing... jester69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonestar1
    While I think the point of this thread was meant as a "public service" to we who may be uninformed,misinformed,etc...people GET A GRIP! Remember the word...moderation?
    I posted this because I had not heard any of this previous to reading it the last couple of days, and a) wanted to hear from other people what they thought of it and b) let anyone like myself that had never heard a peep that soy was bad know that maybe some research was in order. Though it has its place it isn't a wonder food to the expense of all others.

    I don't have any particular axe to grind, just learned something new and wanted to share.

    take care,

    Jester
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  23. #23
    wonderer, wanderer gonesh9's Avatar
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    I think American men can benefit from a little estrogen to balance out the overload of testosterone that most men here seem to possess.

    Would be a much more peaceful place to live
    Last edited by gonesh9; 11-11-03 at 01:09 PM.

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    Just ride :-D rjtokyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jester69
    I don't have any particular axe to grind, just learned something new and wanted to share.

    take care,

    Jester
    Thanks for sharing the info Jester! Interesting food for thought . Happy riding!

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    Quote Originally Posted by gonesh9
    I think American men can benefit from a little estrogen to balance out the overload of testosterone that most men here seem to possess.
    Too much testosterone? What's that supposed to mean, a****ole? How'd you like me to rip off your arms and beat you with the stumps? Huh, jerk******?? Estrogen, indeed!

    "My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."

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