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  1. #1
    Senior Member Richard Cranium's Avatar
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    Heart Rate Monitor - real life stats - results

    I've produced a web page that shows what happened to me when I conducted two nearly identical workouts while wearing a HR monitor.

    The first workout shows a higher HR because it was performed on the day following a couple of LT workouts on the previous day.

    The next day, I did a slightly harder workout, but it shows less stress because I began recovering from the previous hard days work even inspite the low level workout for that day.

    No big deal, but these charts show that I'm one of the few people that actually works out with enough discipline and knowledge to know when and why my workouts are effective or simply a waste of time.

    http://geocities.com/mercian753/excel/hrtr.html

    The first page explains the workouts, the second contain the charts of heart rate and load.

  2. #2
    umd
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cranium View Post
    I've produced a web page that shows what happened to me when I conducted two nearly identical workouts while wearing a HR monitor.

    The first workout shows a higher HR because it was performed on the day following a couple of LT workouts on the previous day.

    The next day, I did a slightly harder workout, but it shows less stress because I began recovering from the previous hard days work even inspite the low level workout for that day.
    No big deal, but these charts show that I'm one of the few people that actually works out with enough discipline and knowledge to know when and why my workouts are effective or simply a waste of time.

    http://geocities.com/mercian753/excel/hrtr.html

    The first page explains the workouts, the second contain the charts of heart rate and load.
    Conceited much?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cranium View Post
    No big deal, but these charts show that I'm one of the few people that actually works out with enough discipline and knowledge to know when and why my workouts are effective or simply a waste of time.
    I'm not sure what your graphs show. Since you are riding on unloaded rollers with a, presumably, high cadence it could mean that you just got more efficient at spinning on the second day. It doesn't look like you were putting out much power so it's not clear what the purpose of the workouts was other than to improve your spinning technique.

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    Administrator CbadRider's Avatar
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    I don't need charts and graphs to know when and why my workouts are effective.
    Quote Originally Posted by RPK79 View Post
    Does the ignore feature just replace all of the poster's text with "Said something stupid" because that would be awesome.
    Forum Guidelines *click here*

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    Senior Member 8Lives's Avatar
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  6. #6
    Senior Member Richard Cranium's Avatar
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    Conceited much?
    Yes, I figure on a scale of one to ten, I'm about at nine.

    I'm not sure what your graphs show.
    The charts show that the first workout required a higher heart rate. I suspect the higher heart rate was a result of fatigue from previous workouts. Most of this is explained in the text on the first page.

    Since you are riding on unloaded rollers with a, presumably, high cadence it could mean that you just got more efficient at spinning on the second day.
    That's silly. I've been riding rollers for years, there's no appreciable difference in efficiency of any of my "spinning" or pedal stroke.


    It doesn't look like you were putting out much power so it's not clear what the purpose of the workouts was other than to improve your spinning technique.
    Both workouts were non-specific maintenance workouts. Their primary purpose is to maintain off-season fitness.

    Anyone who is truly interested in understanding the nature of their own HR based training would do well to experiment and perform their own incrementally loaded and recorded, yet identical workouts to discover how much variance there is in their own HR at given loads.

    Instead, much HR training advice stats are estimated by people who have no clue. Hence, my conceit, I actually know what I'm talking about.


    Last edited by Richard Cranium; 12-19-08 at 10:55 AM.

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    umd
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cranium View Post
    Instead, much HR training advice stats are estimated by people who have no clue. Hence, my conceit, I actually know what I'm talking about.
    You act like you are the first person to discover this. I think many of us have observed this and tested it. It's pretty well known that HR is very much affected by fatigue, as well as sleep, stress, caffeine, etc. This is why training with power is more effective than training with heart rate.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Richard Cranium's Avatar
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    You act like you are the first person to discover this. I think many of us have observed this and tested it. It's pretty well known that HR is very much affected by fatigue, as well as sleep, stress, caffeine, etc. This is why training with power is more effective than training with heart rate.
    Yeah, it's all old news. But, from the kinds of comments I see - i doubt many people actually check their own stats as intimately as I have.

    This is why training with power is more effective than training with heart rate.
    This is the kind of silly crap that passes for knowledge. Actually, training with all the types of biofeedback available is the best methodology. Using "power" as a single measure of applied training stress does not preclude the benefits of other information.

  9. #9
    umd
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cranium View Post
    Yeah, it's all old news. But, from the kinds of comments I see - i doubt many people actually check their own stats as intimately as I have.

    This is the kind of silly crap that passes for knowledge. Actually, training with all the types of biofeedback available is the best methodology. Using "power" as a single measure of applied training stress does not preclude the benefits of other information.
    I train with power but I still observe my heart rate (although many people will tell you that they don't), but my point is that heart rate is affected by many factors. One is of course fatigue but the others can raise or lower your HR for the same "performance" or "work". You may even have different heart rates but the same power and RPE.

    FWIW, here are two identical rides from Monday and Friday. Nearly the same time and power, but today was a higher HR. It didn't "feel" any harder and I have about the same amount of residual fatigue. They are both recovery rides so neither is "well rested". THe only appreciable difference between the rides is that on Monday it was raining and the path goes down into a creek, which was closed so I had to detour a bit at the very end of "lap 3"

    note: you have to ignore the "max speed", it gets spikes but there are corresponding down spikes and the averages work out.

    Monday:
    Code:
     Lap 1:
        Duration:      20:32
        Work:          205 kJ
        TSS:           13.5 (intensity factor 0.628)
        Norm Power:    176
        VI:            1.06
        Pw:HR:          -7.99%
        Pa:HR:          7.55%
        Distance:      6.433 mi
        Elevation Gain:        406 ft
        Elevation Loss:       359 ft
        Grade:         0.1 %  (48 ft)
            Min    Max    Avg
        Power:           0    302    167     watts
        Heart Rate:      67    152    130     bpm
        Cadence:         3    106    83     rpm
        Speed:           3    41.1    18.9     mph
        Crank Torque:    0    419    173     lb-in
     
    Lap 2:
        Duration:      16:37
        Work:          164 kJ
        TSS:           10.1 (intensity factor 0.605)
        Norm Power:    169
        VI:            1.03
        Pw:HR:          -0.23%
        Pa:HR:          13.37%
        Distance:      4.845 mi
        Elevation Gain:        267 ft
        Elevation Loss:       324 ft
        Grade:         -0.2 %  (-57 ft)
            Min    Max    Avg
        Power:           0    348    164     watts
        Heart Rate:      111    149    130     bpm
        Cadence:         3    105    83     rpm
        Speed:           0.4    32.1    17.6     mph
        Crank Torque:    0    397    167     lb-in
     
    Lap 3:
        Duration:      10:00 (10:34)
        Work:          96 kJ
        TSS:           6.3 (intensity factor 0.617)
        Norm Power:    173
        VI:            1.08
        Pw:HR:          -4.53%
        Pa:HR:          12.91%
        Distance:      2.863 mi
        Elevation Gain:        159 ft
        Elevation Loss:       155 ft
        Grade:         0.0 %  (4 ft)
            Min    Max    Avg
        Power:           0    308    161     watts
        Heart Rate:      96    143    129     bpm
        Cadence:         1    99    83     rpm
        Speed:           1.1    42.3    17.2     mph
        Crank Torque:    0    435    163     lb-in
     
    Entire workout (164 watts):
        Duration:      47:46 (48:20)
        Work:          471 kJ
        TSS:           30.3 (intensity factor 0.617)
        Norm Power:    173
        VI:            1.05
        Pw:HR:          2.24%
        Pa:HR:          9.34%
        Distance:      14.305 mi
        Elevation Gain:        843 ft
        Elevation Loss:       844 ft
        Grade:         -0.0 %  (-1 ft)
            Min    Max    Avg
        Power:           0    348    164     watts
        Heart Rate:      65    152    129     bpm
        Cadence:         1    106    83     rpm
        Speed:           0.4    42.3    18.0     mph
        Crank Torque:    0    435    169     lb-in
    Today:
    Code:
    Lap 1:
        Duration:      20:24 (20:52)
        Work:          208 kJ
        TSS:           14.3 (intensity factor 0.649)
        Norm Power:    182
        VI:            1.07
        Pw:HR:          3.87%
        Pa:HR:          5.17%
        Distance:      6.341 mi
        Elevation Gain:        402 ft
        Elevation Loss:       395 ft
        Grade:         0.0 %  (11 ft)
            Min    Max    Avg
        Power:           0    351    170     watts
        Heart Rate:      83    157    138     bpm
        Cadence:         1    108    82     rpm
        Speed:           0.2    45.4    18.6     mph
        Crank Torque:    0    539    179     lb-in
     
    Lap 2:
        Duration:      16:33
        Work:          156 kJ
        TSS:           9.4 (intensity factor 0.585)
        Norm Power:    164
        VI:            1.05
        Pw:HR:          -7.87%
        Pa:HR:          17.27%
        Distance:      4.895 mi
        Elevation Gain:        283 ft
        Elevation Loss:       359 ft
        Grade:         -0.3 %  (-75 ft)
            Min    Max    Avg
        Power:           0    330    157     watts
        Heart Rate:      118    158    134     bpm
        Cadence:         4    102    86     rpm
        Speed:           0    33.2    17.8     mph
        Crank Torque:    0    381    155     lb-in
     
    Lap 3:
        Duration:      9:24
        Work:          98 kJ
        TSS:           6.5 (intensity factor 0.646)
        Norm Power:    181
        VI:            1.04
        Pw:HR:          -4.33%
        Pa:HR:          10.55%
        Distance:      2.8 mi
        Elevation Gain:        190 ft
        Elevation Loss:       185 ft
        Grade:         0.0 %  (5 ft)
            Min    Max    Avg
        Power:           0    367    173     watts
        Heart Rate:      123    159    141     bpm
        Cadence:         4    120    89     rpm
        Speed:           0    45.8    17.9     mph
        Crank Torque:    0    466    165     lb-in
     
    Entire workout (166 watts):
        Duration:      46:42 (47:10)
        Work:          466 kJ
        TSS:           30.8 (intensity factor 0.629)
        Norm Power:    176
        VI:            1.06
        Pw:HR:          1.69%
        Pa:HR:          4.64%
        Distance:      14.141 mi
        Elevation Gain:        889 ft
        Elevation Loss:       944 ft
        Grade:         -0.1 %  (-55 ft)
            Min    Max    Avg
        Power:           0    367    166     watts
        Heart Rate:      83    160    137     bpm
        Cadence:         1    120    85     rpm
        Speed:           0    45.8    18.2     mph
        Crank Torque:    0    539    169     lb-in
    Last edited by umd; 12-19-08 at 11:22 AM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cranium View Post
    Anyone who is truly interested in understanding the nature of their own HR based training would do well to experiment and perform their own incrementally loaded and recorded, yet identical workouts to discover how much variance there is in their own HR at given loads.
    Why? It's still not clear to me what you have learned from your experiment other than that after a hard workout you are better rested after two days - not really a novel conclusion. How will you use this info to get faster if that's what you are looking to do?

  11. #11
    Senior Member tanhalt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cranium View Post
    Yeah, it's all old news. But, from the kinds of comments I see - i doubt many people actually check their own stats as intimately as I have.

    This is the kind of silly crap that passes for knowledge. Actually, training with all the types of biofeedback available is the best methodology. Using "power" as a single measure of applied training stress does not preclude the benefits of other information.
    Ummm....this is an INDOOR training workout, right? How do you know that the differences in response were due to your state of rest? Could there have been different temperatures? Different cooling? Different levels of hydration?...etc., etc., etc.

    So...according to your "test", being well-rested results in a lower HR response. OK, but tell me, what happens to your HR response on the 3rd day of a hard training block? Up or down?

    Methinks you might be coming to conclusions/generalizations that aren't necessarily supported by the facts...

    The fact that HR response is just that...a RESPONSE to the load...that's also highly variable and susceptible to all the factors (and then some) listed above is the reason why actual power output is a better measure of the training load than something based on HR. HR isn't bad...actually, it's better than nothing...but it can be improved upon.

    And Steve...you should know better than to get in an argument with someone who's user name is a take off on "Dick Head"

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by tanhalt View Post

    Methinks you might be coming to conclusions/generalizations that aren't necessarily supported by the facts...
    Agreed. It’s really hard to draw meaningful conclusions from the available information.

    You should have at least shown how you controlled or measured confounding variables. E.g. same time of day, same music selection and volume, same room temperature and circulation, same food and drink, same amount of sleep, same clothing, similar or identical athlete weight (important), etc, etc.

    Hmmm maybe I should post a thread on how I analyze the HR data I get from my ergometer workouts…. sigh

  13. #13
    umd
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    Quote Originally Posted by tanhalt View Post
    And Steve...you should know better than to get in an argument with someone who's user name is a take off on "Dick Head"
    I know

  14. #14
    My bike needs a new motor
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    UMD,

    What kind of equipment do you have to get those printouts that you have?

    TIA

  15. #15
    umd
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    Quote Originally Posted by slant911 View Post
    UMD,

    What kind of equipment do you have to get those printouts that you have?

    TIA
    The software is WKO+, combined with any power meter will give you the data, but I have a Quarq CinQo. Both of these rides was with my "older" CinQo on my cross bike, but I usually use the newer "Saturn" model.


  16. #16
    Senior Member Richard Cranium's Avatar
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    UMD, its too bad your reports lost formatting when posted, if you can email them as text file or excel or what ever I'd appreciate it.

    And yes, the roller workouts are identical in many ways - with the most notable exception how well I was rested. "same time/same setup etc....)

    The rollers, my air pressure gauge and speedometer and watch are as close as I can get to training "by power." Unless you count doing squats with free weights - yuk, yuk....

    The significance of the two workouts, and their purpose was to demonstrate the 'range' of CV stress between two days, with as little as possible extrinsic factors.

    No, none of this has any real world value other than letting me know for the remainder of the winter what my "recovery" days HR should be. I will use this same sort of workout to determine whether I will perform LT or VO2 work the next day, or whether I may need to wait another day.

    I'm pretty happy with my status. And I thought my little "pyramid workout" 6min increments, roller test was cute. And with the exceptions of other geeks with power meters, I continue to think most people don't do their "background" work to have a clue to know how and when to go hard. But I digress.....

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