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  1. #1
    Senior Member captnfantastic's Avatar
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    Weight loss and intensity together?

    I have nearly 20 lbs to lose.

    If i were to eat:

    a small pre ride meal
    gels/ energy bars on rides
    eat in the three/four hours post-ride (1 gram carb/ kg weight)

    starve myself the rest of the time (I don't mean literally, just a DRASTIC reduction in caloric intake)

    would i be able to increase performance AND lose weight?

    I keep hearing you can't do both but I find that hard to believe. It seems with careful planning and execution it can be done. Everything has to do with timing.

    post ride carbs will fill up most of your glycogen stores for next day, pre ride meal will top them off, on-ride snacks will keep you going, then the cycle begins again.

    find the flaws.
    DROP THE HAMMER!

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    I'm not really a nutritionist, and my diet is laughable but I believe you can increase performance and lose weight, its happened with my run time anyway. I usually cut the gels and food on rides, keep a bottle of water and a bottle of endurox which usually has enough to keep going for a 90 mile ride albeit feel exhausted after. I also find that after the ride Im really hungry but post three/four hour ride if I didnt eat when I was really hungry Im not really hungry at all, so I usually just eat a cup of rice.

    I think cutting your calorie intake is fine, just make sure it doesnt interfere with other stuff in your life.

    Also weight lifting will make you gain muscle weight, but if you have a lot more fat than you care for right now, a ton more muscle can still weigh less than all that fat. (Its kinda weird, I was 146 before I started doing anything, and Im 134 after taking up triathlon running, biking, and weight lifting [to some extent... still cant bench past 140 ._.) but my weight decreased.. not by 20 pounds though (time frame of weight loss was about a little over a month. So far the weight hasn't come back and this was back in mid august)

    In terms of performance, not sure if it helps everyone, but my friend in the army said for some runs sometimes he would just drink a couple cups of black coffee (its probably not to healthy in the sense of increased heart rate through drug) and it made a world of difference in performance.

    I tried it with biking, and not so much a world of difference, but I felt I could sustain a higher cadence for a while (once it starts wearing off though around the 40 - 50 mile); it does help running though a little bit better, perhaps because the time frame is no where near as long.

    I think the main flaw in your post for the diet is the that your trying to fill up your glycogen stores again... shouldnt you be trying to decrease this so your body has to tap into your fat thats already there rather than replenishing the fat lost? (Again Im not a nutritionist so Icould be wrong in what I just said).

    Sorry if the post was utterly useless.

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    If "performance" is pure muscular strength, then unless you're a total beginner, it's nearly impossible to both weight and increase performance. If you could perfectly manage caloric and protein intake with excercise, then it would be theoretically possible, but this isn't really practical. If you want to lose weight and gain strength, all the advice I've seen is to first get youre weight down and then focus on strength training with a slight caloric surplus and plenty of protein.

    If performance is defined by cycling speed, then muscular strength is much less important and weight loss will have a large positive impact, so this may be much more achievable. I'd guess you'd have to make sure you had enough fuel to avoid bonking on longer rides. I'd be interested in understanding what effect a slight caloric deficit has on you ability to improve aerobic endurace as well as LT and V02Max fitness.

  4. #4
    Isaias NoRacer's Avatar
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    Regarding intensity, you need a balance between time and intensity. You should target a goal of burning as many calories as time alots. So, if you have hours at your disposal, ride at lactate threshold for 1 hour scaling down intensity for each hour after that. If you only have 1/2 an hour, then do an interval set--something like:

    Example:
    10 minutes warm-up
    2 x 5 minutes (@ the highest intensity level you are capable of for 5 minutes) w/30 seconds rest
    Remaining time - warm-down


    Quote Originally Posted by Rhystic View Post
    I'm not really a nutritionist, and my diet is laughable but I believe you can increase performance and lose weight, its happened with my run time anyway. I usually cut the gels and food on rides, keep a bottle of water and a bottle of endurox which usually has enough to keep going for a 90 mile ride albeit feel exhausted after. I also find that after the ride Im really hungry but post three/four hour ride if I didnt eat when I was really hungry Im not really hungry at all, so I usually just eat a cup of rice.

    I think cutting your calorie intake is fine, just make sure it doesnt interfere with other stuff in your life.
    On my rides I use Glucose tablets for food and Gatorade or water for drink. That's all. I did this as a runner and also as a cyclists achieving this change--mostly during my running phase:




    Quote Originally Posted by Rhystic View Post
    Also weight lifting will make you gain muscle weight, but if you have a lot more fat than you care for right now, a ton more muscle can still weigh less than all that fat. (Its kinda weird, I was 146 before I started doing anything, and Im 134 after taking up triathlon running, biking, and weight lifting [to some extent... still cant bench past 140 ._.) but my weight decreased.. not by 20 pounds though (time frame of weight loss was about a little over a month. So far the weight hasn't come back and this was back in mid august)
    Rarely does anyone train hard enough with weights, unless they are a bodybuilder, to gain "a ton more muscle". Usually, the weight work simply helps tone up the muscles and helps burn the fat that is embedded throughout the muscles.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rhystic View Post
    In terms of performance, not sure if it helps everyone, but my friend in the army said for some runs sometimes he would just drink a couple cups of black coffee (its probably not to healthy in the sense of increased heart rate through drug) and it made a world of difference in performance.

    I tried it with biking, and not so much a world of difference, but I felt I could sustain a higher cadence for a while (once it starts wearing off though around the 40 - 50 mile); it does help running though a little bit better, perhaps because the time frame is no where near as long.
    Some of the last articles that I read regarding caffeine ingestion and sport performance is that it doesn't increase performance, per se, but -may- influence- your perception regarding the intensity of the workout, making it feel easier. There's also some suggestion that it may help the nervous system send and receive messages better in some way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rhystic View Post
    I think the main flaw in your post for the diet is the that your trying to fill up your glycogen stores again... shouldnt you be trying to decrease this so your body has to tap into your fat thats already there rather than replenishing the fat lost? (Again Im not a nutritionist so Icould be wrong in what I just said).
    Nah, not a flaw.

    GOOGLED: "Fat burns in a carbohydrate fire."
    Last edited by NoRacer; 12-19-08 at 08:25 AM.
    2009 mileage = 14,738 miles; 2010 mileage = 15,234 miles; 2011 mileage = 17,344 miles; 2012 mileage = 11,414 miles; 2013 = 12,169

  5. #5
    Senior Member captnfantastic's Avatar
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    The glycogen stores are so I can perform intensely day after day. (for 90 min -2 hours)

    Basically I would be losing weight by denying my body calories during the time I am not exercising
    and feeding my body fuel when it needs it (while riding and right after a ride). One flaw that I can think of is since I will be denying my body fuel when not riding, it might try and take the food while I am riding and store it while drastically hindering my power output. this would be the opposite of what I would want.
    DROP THE HAMMER!

  6. #6
    Pat
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    Well, whether you can lose weight whilst gaining performance, I don't know.

    Part of the problem is are you in terms of performance? Going from say couch potato to sort of fit, does not take that much training. The gains come fast and easily. In that case, it would be easy ton lose weight and gain performance. It might even be a little hard to avoid doing so.

    But if you are close to your maximum performance, it takes very focused training to gain any performance at all. If you are working on losing weight, performance gains might not even be noticeable.

  7. #7
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    Concentrate on losing weight to a predefined target first, via diet and long, lower intensity workouts. Once you reach that target, increase the intensity of your workouts to reach your performance goals, adjusting your diet accordingly.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

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    Banned. ModoVincere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom View Post
    Concentrate on losing weight to a predefined target first, via diet and long, lower intensity workouts. Once you reach that target, increase the intensity of your workouts to reach your performance goals, adjusting your diet accordingly.
    +1

    In addition, aim for no more than 1-1 1/2 pounds of weightloss per week. Any more than that and you will be losing muscle mass. Muscle mass is what you want to maintain in order to maintain or improve performance.

  9. #9
    Senior Member captnfantastic's Avatar
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    I am not going from couch potato to semi fit. I am going from riding very strong in my club rides to race riding.

    I am pretty heavy for a racer. 205 lbs 6'1"

    I would like to get to 185-190ish (still heavy I know but better)

    I also need to gain in performance... I don't think I have time to diet for a few months solid then start building strength.
    DROP THE HAMMER!

  10. #10
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnfantastic View Post
    I am not going from couch potato to semi fit. I am going from riding very strong in my club rides to race riding.

    I am pretty heavy for a racer. 205 lbs 6'1"

    I would like to get to 185-190ish (still heavy I know but better)

    I also need to gain in performance... I don't think I have time to diet for a few months solid then start building strength.
    You'll be dieting AND building base...it's the winter thing to do.
    Then you can start doing your intensity work as you start racing early next year.
    You don't have to be in peak shape to start racing and you don't want to be dieting as you are racing.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  11. #11
    Packfodding 3 caloso's Avatar
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    What Chip said. And that's my plan too. As soon as I finish these cookies....
    Cyclists of the world, unite! You have nothing to lube but your chains!

  12. #12
    Senior Member captnfantastic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom View Post
    You'll be dieting AND building base...it's the winter thing to do.
    Then you can start doing your intensity work as you start racing early next year.
    You don't have to be in peak shape to start racing and you don't want to be dieting as you are racing.
    so your saying i should build my base with long rides in the fat burning zone? (what %MHR is that? 65%?)

    How long do most racers do intensity training? from when to when?
    DROP THE HAMMER!

  13. #13
    Senior Member ldesfor1@ithaca's Avatar
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    Lot's of good stuff in this thread, I think.

    I will say that the 5-6 lbs a month of weight loss is the most you should aim for.

    I think you can boost performance and lose fat slowly, but it required monk-like consistency AND the ability to listen to you body (which has taken me a five years to only begin to figure out).

    Also, you cant expect to feel decent every workout, sometimes you'll feel pretty crappy. Winter is the time to have crappy workouts, but beware of the burnout/over reaching symptoms!

    That said, I've been training with a lot of time at pretty high intensity (Sweetspot, 2 hour tempo sessions and some time just below threshold OR 85-98% of LTHR) AND cutting 5 lbs of fat. It's tough, but doable. Actually, it should be even more plausible for you as it seems you've got more excess weight to cut (my BF is already below 8%, and my body doesnt like to go much below this). No offense intended.

    The way you are going about it sounds similar to what I'm doing:

    7AM: good breakfast, then:
    9AM: 1200-2000 calorie workout, with 300 cal/hour in drink form (20% whey, 80% maltodexterin and some BCAA's/glutamine).
    Then really good recovery meals: 20-30g whey and 400-600 cals from simple carbs (potato, malto, rice, grits, etc...) and more BCAA's/glutamine.

    then a nice moderate carb (all fruits, veg and whole grains, no exceptions), moderate protein, bit of healthy fats meals until 6PM when I go into no carb, slight deprivation mode. I eat big, low cal salads and nice proteins and fats. No eating 2 hours before bed... lots of gum and herbal teas.... :-/

    My 2500-3000 calorie saturday ride is a great way to create a 1500 cal deficit without even trying, which is nice.

    My performance has been going well, even though I know I'm a bit carb deficient. As long as my workouts are good and I'm not feeling any burnout sensations AT ALL, I'm good.

    But I'd not wait any longer to get started... 12-15 lbs in 10 weeks should be plausible for you while keeping performance high.

    good luck!!

    -L
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  14. #14
    Senior Member ldesfor1@ithaca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by captnfantastic View Post

    How long do most racers do intensity training? from when to when?
    I've only seen my HR go over LTHR a few times in the past 3 months.

    I plan on bringing intenities above LT into training 10 weeks before my first peak. I wont even think about real "all out" type efforts until 5-6 weeks before my first peak.

    the toll that high intensity training takes requires too much recovery time, too much mental fatigue and does not address the need to build a huge Base of fitness (I want 3000 calorie rides or 10,000 calorie weeks to feel like a joke by march... that's what Base is to me).

    I'm currently training on monday, tuesday wednesday, friday and saturday. Monday and friday are my toughest workouts as I'm coming off a rest day and tend to feel freshest then. Wednesday and Saturday are my longer steady rides when I'm most fatigued and probably couldnt handle the higher pace of SST/sub-threshold work that I do on Monday and Friday.

    In 6 weeks, I'll be into 8 weeks of "Build" where I'll cut down to 4 workouts a week, with an extra day of rest to account for the increaced intensity.

    hope this helps,

    -L
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  15. #15
    Senior Member captnfantastic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldesfor1@ithaca View Post
    Actually, it should be even more plausible for you as it seems you've got more excess weight to cut (my BF is already below 8%, and my body doesnt like to go much below this). No offense intended.
    The way you are going about it sounds similar to what I'm doing:


    then a nice moderate carb (all fruits, veg and whole grains, no exceptions), moderate protein, bit of healthy fats meals until 6PM when I go into no carb, slight deprivation mode. I eat big, low cal salads and nice proteins and fats. No eating 2 hours before bed... lots of gum and herbal teas.... :-/

    My 2500-3000 calorie saturday ride is a great way to create a 1500 cal deficit without even trying, which is nice.

    My performance has been going well, even though I know I'm a bit carb deficient. As long as my workouts are good and I'm not feeling any burnout sensations AT ALL, I'm good.

    But I'd not wait any longer to get started... 12-15 lbs in 10 weeks should be plausible for you while keeping performance high.

    good luck!!

    -L
    none taken.

    so basically you eat to fuel your workouts and then extreme diet all other times?
    how about days off and dieting?
    this is very much what I am doing. I'll keep posting.
    DROP THE HAMMER!

  16. #16
    Senior Member Richard Cranium's Avatar
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    would i be able to increase performance AND lose weight?
    A lot of things are all relative, so who knows what to think? Your performance may be so low - it HAS to go up..

    But, without going into to too much technical crap - the fundamental problem of simultaneous weight loss and training progression is based upon that fact that a higher proportion of what's eaten is being used for a bodily maintenance, not glycogen regeneration.

    Therefore, during each each attempt at "hard exercise" less glycogen is available for training work than if the person was continuing to eat without creating any calorie deficit.

    This is at least one of the reasons why so many fitness gurus encourage people to perform "fat burning workouts." Fat cannot directly fuel high intensity muscle work. It needs time to become "oxidized" carried through the blood and repackaged for delivery to muscles.

    And guess what you are doing during aerobic workouts? You are "oxidizing" fat, without running out of glycogen as fast.

    Finally, understand this - you want your body to get better at doing both things, burning glycogen fast, pumping air in to oxidize fat. It's just that if you wipe yourself out of glycogen, you won't feel like exercising long enough to keep losing weight.

    Clear as mud, right?

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