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Old 09-12-17, 10:19 AM   #76
79pmooney
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Before we dive in. Did you read the whole article or did you just quote the abstract to use as a basis for your argument?
No, I didn't read the article. I could not get to it on the website or maybe i had to sign up or pay. That summary nicely matches what I have observed for myself.

Edit: I know this article existed until just before I posted it. It in no way has shaped my beliefs. I could have written the posts before 20 years ago.

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Old 09-12-17, 10:25 AM   #77
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Yes, but you would think there would be a more definitive answer 8 years after the OP posted the thread. (August 2009).


PS They haven't logged in for four and a half years.
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Old 09-12-17, 10:47 AM   #78
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No, I didn't read the article. I could not get to it on the website or maybe i had to sign up or pay. That summary nicely matches what I have observed for myself.

Edit: I know this article existed until just before I posted it. It in no way has shaped my beliefs. I could have written the posts before 20 years ago.

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Well the answer is easy and has nothing to do with it being natural honey specifically. All you have to do is look at the mention of fructose blood sugar level changes after ingestion and having an understanding of the ratio of sugars in honey and just a basic understanding of sugar metabolism in the body.
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Old 09-12-17, 11:15 AM   #79
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You don't need sugars replaced by a drink. If you are that far gone, you need an ambulance.


Water is what you are in need of. The reason Gatorade was invented was to prevent football players from losing vital stuff in the heat while playing or practicing. However, it still does not do enough to alleviate heat stroke and exhaustion. Consider it a crutch and adjust your riding to promote your own health and safety.


i.e. The Romans, Spartans and all them other warrior dudes didn't need Gatorade.
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Old 09-12-17, 11:54 AM   #80
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Yes, but you would think there would be a more definitive answer 8 years after the OP posted the thread. (August 2009).


PS They haven't logged in for four and a half years.
Other people seem to find the topic useful though.
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Old 09-12-17, 11:55 AM   #81
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i.e. The Romans, Spartans and all them other warrior dudes didn't need Gatorade.
Sure but in those days running a marathon was just about the height of human achievement. I know a 50 year old dude who just ran two back-to-back marathons, one on Saturday and one on Sunday.

The Spartans didn't have the internet, either, and that's not stopping any of us.
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Old 09-12-17, 12:16 PM   #82
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You don't need sugars replaced by a drink. If you are that far gone, you need an ambulance.


Water is what you are in need of. The reason Gatorade was invented was to prevent football players from losing vital stuff in the heat while playing or practicing. However, it still does not do enough to alleviate heat stroke and exhaustion. Consider it a crutch and adjust your riding to promote your own health and safety.


i.e. The Romans, Spartans and all them other warrior dudes didn't need Gatorade.
I'm guessing your username doesn't really apply if this is the advice you follow
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Old 09-12-17, 12:36 PM   #83
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my effort was good and i was feeling good, upon drinking i got a spike, then dropped down to feeling like garbage, below where i started, another gulp and im up again for a few, then back down. point it after drinking gatoraid and it wears off i feel worse than when i started, hard bonk.
If you were feeling good, you wouldn't have tried having some carbs, would you? Bonk comes on pretty fast when you're ketogenic if you ride over your fat burning level - you don't have much glycogen and it's easy to quickly drop your BS with even a small effort. So when you get there and you feel you need some carbs to keep going, just keep the carbs coming. You'll need 30-40 calories every 15 minutes. I probably put out a little more power than you and need 50-60 calories every 15 minutes. So figure out how to do that. Gatorade probably won't do it for you. Gels or Shot Bloks are the go-to calorie source. Ketogenic works fine off the bike, and fine on the bike as long as you keep your effort way down to where you only breathe deep and slow. Once you go over that, it's only a matter of time until you need to switch over to carbs.

And the rule is that your body only gets good at what you make it do. So not eating carbs normally, your body isn't very good at using them so you'll naturally have to watch things a lot more closely than a normally carb-fueled rider would.
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Old 09-12-17, 12:42 PM   #84
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Yes, but you would think there would be a more definitive answer 8 years after the OP posted the thread. (August 2009).


PS They haven't logged in for four and a half years.
No. In fact there is no definitive answer, which is the reason we're at 4 pages now. What a rider needs at any particular time or on any particular ride depends on the rider, the training state of that rider, what that rider is used to for nutrition, hydration, and electrolytes, the ride, and the current circumstances during that ride. It's not simple at all. Hence this forum.
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Old 09-13-17, 07:08 AM   #85
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Sure but in those days running a marathon was just about the height of human achievement. I know a 50 year old dude who just ran two back-to-back marathons, one on Saturday and one on Sunday.

The Spartans didn't have the internet, either, and that's not stopping any of us.
Didn't all the Spartans gladiators die off?
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Old 09-13-17, 09:40 AM   #86
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i.e. The Romans, Spartans and all them other warrior dudes didn't need Gatorade.
On the other hand, maybe Philippides wouldn't have dropped dead if he had taken some electrolytes...
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Old 09-13-17, 02:55 PM   #87
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If my choice is between water and full strength Gatorade, then water is my choice. If my choice is between water and diluted Gatorade, then my choice is still water.

Gatorade at full strength has about the right amount of carbs but too many electrolytes. Gatorade diluted has too little carbs and still too many electrolytes.

People heard this word electrolytes a long time ago and fix on it. Most think more is better. If any would take time to do the math you'd see that the amount of electrolytes you need during a particular level and duration of activity is much less than what most drinks give you. Even many that say nothing about electrolytes have sufficient amounts in them. Electrolytes are sodium, potassium, magnesium and such.

One of the things I wonder about is whether the difference in whether some can drink Gatorade and other high electrolyte drinks during intense cycling is whether they also normally have a diet high in salt. My normal diet is fairly low in salt compared to many so likewise that may be why I can't drink Gatorade during intense cycling or long rides without getting stomach cramps. Perhaps those with a diet high in salt may also get stomach cramps when drinking my 50/50 CranGrape and water which is lower in electrolytes.
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Old 09-13-17, 08:55 PM   #88
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On the other hand, maybe Philippides wouldn't have dropped dead if he had taken some electrolytes...

He ran just a bit under 200 miles (Sparta and back) in the two days before he ran Marathon. Tens of thousands of feet of elevation gain and loss, no camelback, feeding stations or water bottles,and in his bare feet!


Without Gatorade.



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Old 09-13-17, 09:13 PM   #89
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He ran 150 miles (Sparta and back) in the two days before he ran Marathon. Tens of thousands of feet of elevation gain and loss, no camelback, feeding stations or water bottles,and in his bare feet!


Without Gatorade.
You're leaving out the best part about his arrival at Athens, where he dropped dead.

The Spartathlon is a thing, no one dies, and I imagine some of the participants even have a Gatorade or two.
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Old 09-14-17, 10:19 AM   #90
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If my choice is between water and full strength Gatorade, then water is my choice. If my choice is between water and diluted Gatorade, then my choice is still water.

Gatorade at full strength has about the right amount of carbs but too many electrolytes. Gatorade diluted has too little carbs and still too many electrolytes.

People heard this word electrolytes a long time ago and fix on it. Most think more is better. If any would take time to do the math you'd see that the amount of electrolytes you need during a particular level and duration of activity is much less than what most drinks give you. Even many that say nothing about electrolytes have sufficient amounts in them. Electrolytes are sodium, potassium, magnesium and such.

One of the things I wonder about is whether the difference in whether some can drink Gatorade and other high electrolyte drinks during intense cycling is whether they also normally have a diet high in salt. My normal diet is fairly low in salt compared to many so likewise that may be why I can't drink Gatorade during intense cycling or long rides without getting stomach cramps. Perhaps those with a diet high in salt may also get stomach cramps when drinking my 50/50 CranGrape and water which is lower in electrolytes.
What makes you say there is too much electrolyte? The sodium is there not strictly for electrolyte replenishment. The glucose transport proteins in your intestines are sodium/potassium(Na/K) dependent, so providing them with the glucose speeds up absorption. The amounts are under the osmolality to cause gastric emptying and water influx issues.
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Old 09-14-17, 09:50 PM   #91
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If my choice is between water and full strength Gatorade, then water is my choice. If my choice is between water and diluted Gatorade, then my choice is still water.

Gatorade at full strength has about the right amount of carbs but too many electrolytes. Gatorade diluted has too little carbs and still too many electrolytes.

People heard this word electrolytes a long time ago and fix on it. Most think more is better. If any would take time to do the math you'd see that the amount of electrolytes you need during a particular level and duration of activity is much less than what most drinks give you. Even many that say nothing about electrolytes have sufficient amounts in them. Electrolytes are sodium, potassium, magnesium and such.

One of the things I wonder about is whether the difference in whether some can drink Gatorade and other high electrolyte drinks during intense cycling is whether they also normally have a diet high in salt. My normal diet is fairly low in salt compared to many so likewise that may be why I can't drink Gatorade during intense cycling or long rides without getting stomach cramps. Perhaps those with a diet high in salt may also get stomach cramps when drinking my 50/50 CranGrape and water which is lower in electrolytes.
I can see that. Gatorade label says 110mg sodium/8 fl.oz. My electrolyte preference is one Endurolyte/24 oz. water bottle = 80mg sodium/24 fl.oz. or about 1/4 the sodium of Gatorade. I doubt I could tolerate 4 Endurolytes/bottle for hour after hour. But people vary. Hammer says that some people use 6 Endurolytes/bottle, so they can obviously also tolerate Gatorade. One of the reasons I separate my electrolytes from my hydration.
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Old 09-18-17, 01:08 AM   #92
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I'm guessing your username doesn't really apply if this is the advice you follow

I'm a DIABETIC. I also have three Rollfasts, a Schwinn, Shelby and next month a second Schwinn. I can go as fast as I care to
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Old 09-18-17, 12:49 PM   #93
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I'm a DIABETIC. I also have three Rollfasts, a Schwinn, Shelby and next month a second Schwinn. I can go as fast as I care to
Type 1 or 2? I don't ride with any Type 2s, probably for obvious reasons, but the Type 1s all eat carbs, sugars, etc.
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Old 09-18-17, 03:29 PM   #94
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Rode out today with bottle 2 filled with 16oz of Gatorade (the rest ice) so 112kcal worth. Had my first delicious sip around mile 33, at which point the PM told me I had put out 1,350Kj of work, so I'm really, really not worried about the calorie content. Ended the day just shy of 3,000kcal, so I think I managed to use up the 112kcal of Gatorade.
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Old 09-19-17, 11:50 AM   #95
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I'm a DIABETIC. I also have three Rollfasts, a Schwinn, Shelby and next month a second Schwinn. I can go as fast as I care to
and? There is a pro tour team that is all diabetic that trains and races on sugar https://www.teamnovonordisk.com/
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Old 09-19-17, 11:59 AM   #96
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Didn't all the Spartans gladiators die off?
They'd still be alive today if they drank gatorade.
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Old 09-19-17, 01:43 PM   #97
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I rode 104 very hilly miles on Saturday. I brought a large stainless water bottle, perhaps 750 ml. I put in four tablespoons of grade B maple syrup and filled it with water. At a couple of stops, the bottle was half empty, and I refilled it, diluting the flavor. I'm not sure if the syrup had any nutritional benefit, but it didn't hurt, and it tasted good. Near the end of the ride, I bought a Gatorade and drank less than half of it, and by the end, my water bottle was nearly empty.

I also ate food on the ride.
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Old 09-19-17, 07:22 PM   #98
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I put in four tablespoons of grade B maple syrup and filled it with water. At a couple of stops, the bottle was half empty, and I refilled it, diluting the flavor. I'm not sure if the syrup had any nutritional benefit, but it didn't hurt, and it tasted good.
I was about 100 miles down on a 125 miler, and stopped at the LBS as my final stop on the way home-- one of the guys gave me one of those packets of UnTapped maple syrup... it was like a hit of rocket fuel. It wore off after about 17-18 miles, but those miles, wow. If I had taken a second packet with me, I would probably have blasted right past the house.
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Old 09-20-17, 01:36 PM   #99
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What makes you say there is too much electrolyte?
Nothing that I can prove. But here are things that make me lean to favor much less sodium in my bottle. (Besides the fact it cramps my stomach).

Most of the studies I've read that I consider trustworthy for showing the effect on glucose uptake while riding are for professional athletes that already carb load and the additional benefit is worth it for them as every one-hundredth of a second counts. I don't ride professionally.

Much literature put out by sites and companies selling sports nutrition conveniently leave out the fact that sweat glands also re-absorb some of the salt that we sweat out. The more fit a person is, the less salt they tend to loose through sweat. Whether it's that they don't sweat as much salt initially or the sweat glands get better at re-uptake of salt with exercise, who cares, it just happens.

Despite all the focus on electrolytes and salt, more people continue to have problems due to not hydrating adequately. More people at rides and runs that require medical attention have issues related to being hypertonic (too much electrolytes/salts in body fluids) than are hypotonic (too little). Which boils down to they are not drinking enough water.

I don't use Hammer's products, but if I was to use anyone's it would probably be theirs. Their fluids start low in sodium and electrolytes and give you the means to supplement more when it is needed. Hammer's in-depth articles which sometimes are not easy to find seem pretty well founded in reason with their use of data from trials and studies on sports nutrition. Gatorade seems to take a one size fits all approach. I'm not a football player, not remotely built like one. Gatorade was made for football players.
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Old 09-20-17, 01:48 PM   #100
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I was about 100 miles down on a 125 miler, and stopped at the LBS as my final stop on the way home-- one of the guys gave me one of those packets of UnTapped maple syrup... it was like a hit of rocket fuel. It wore off after about 17-18 miles, but those miles, wow. If I had taken a second packet with me, I would probably have blasted right past the house.
Sucrose, the fast acting drug. Maple syrup is 50% sucrose, 50% fructose. I didn't learn of the sugars of maple syrup until about 10 years ago but I "knew" it had real amounts of sucrose from its effect in me in my racing days. I ate maple sugar as a late race pickup in long races.

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