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  1. #1
    bac
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    Protein ... when?

    I've always hit my body with some protein (as well as a sports drink) after a ride. However, I recently bought some Accelerade sports drink that contains protein (4x1 carb x protein ratio), and is designed to be consumed during a ride. What are your thoughts on protein during a ride? ThanX!

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    a waste of time, and not needed afterwards either, or just in very small amounts (e.g., ~ 10 g).

    aim for 30 - 60g of carb per hour of riding and after intense session, aim to consume 1.5 g of carb per kg body mass within 30mins of finishing (i.e., if you weigh 70 kg, use 105 g carb). ensure you have plenty of fluids (1.5 x's your weight loss) and ensure that it has plenty of electrolytes in to prevent it being excreted.

    assuming that you're either a vegetarian or eat a normal mixed diet, and your weight is constant (i.e., you're not loosing a lot of weight) then protein needs will be met with your diet and supplements aren't required

    ric
    www.cyclecoach.com

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    Totally agreed- so many people think they have to have that protein drink after the ride, when really you should be much more concerned with carbohydrate depletion, not protein loss.

    Koffee

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    to add to my initial response: it's exceedingly easy for most people to way over consume protein, and not only go past the recommended amount for the volume/intensity of training that they do, but to exceed the upper limit. even as a veggie (ovo-lacto) i have no problem meeting the upper limit of 2.0 g/kg/day.

    on the other hand CHO demands are much harder to meet -- especially the upper level of ~ 12 g/kg/day.

    ric
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  5. #5
    wonderer, wanderer gonesh9's Avatar
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    So when is the best time to consume protein? Just anytime during the day? Also is it too late to consume carbs a few hours after intense exercise?

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    Now with racer-boy font! Moonshot's Avatar
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    In today's email from www.roadbikerider.com, they quote Edmund Burke as recommending that we take 20 - 30 grams at night before going to bed:

    Protein is a key recovery nutrient to take before
    retiring for the night. Since protein synthesis occurs
    during sleep, it is vital to provide the body with
    plenty of amino acids by taking a protein drink.

    The key is a combination of protein that is released
    slowly through metabolism while sleeping. This means
    a mixture of whey protein, casein, and even milk protein.

    Whey protein is a faster released protein and is
    important because it contains a high percentage of both
    essential amino acids and branched-chain amino acids.
    (BCAAs supply energy by taking the place of glucose in
    energy pathways.)

    BCAAs can increase the net protein turnover during
    sleep and lead to greater gains in lean muscle mass
    and better exercise recovery. Quality whey protein also
    provides key factors that can boost immune function.

    Casein is a more slowly released protein, providing
    amino acids to the body over a longer period of the
    night. It has a naturally high amount of the amino acid
    glutamine.

    As discussed in earlier chapters, glutamine is
    essential for increasing the rate of protein synthesis
    while reducing breakdown in muscle tissue, along with
    a whole host of other great functions.

    Taking 20 to 35 grams (depending on body weight) of a
    whey and casein blend mixed with water about one hour
    before going to sleep can do wonders for protein
    synthesis during sleep.

  7. #7
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    I consume 155 grams of protein per day through both chicken and whey shakes. You want to consume those protein bars with high carbs too within 30 minutes after riding.

  8. #8
    You're just a fat kid Moistfly's Avatar
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    I'm sorry but to anyone stating that protein intake after a workout is unnecessary, that's absolutely ridiculous. I don't have the exact numbers in front of me but you're body makes the best use of protein within 20 - 25 minutes of physical activity, after that span of time your muscles go into a catabolic state and recovery is greatly diminished.

    Also, although most people will get plenty of protein in their diet, it comes in such large amounts that it is not an effective measure of the useful amount of protein they're consuming in a day. The upper limit for the amount of protein any body can handle at any one time is 40g's. That means for 180lb person who should consume 145g's of protein a day they'd have to be consuming 4 meals that contain almost 40g's of protein each. That's something almost nobody does. It's much more realistic to break that into several "snacks" a day based around taking a protein supplement.

    I personally have a protein shake 2-3 times a day depending on what i'm working for the day and when I finish my workouts. For example I'll always have 1 in the morning mixed into skim milk with a banana. Then, if I finish my workout before 8pm i'll have a protein shake immediately afterward followed by one immediately before I go to bed around midnight. If I finish my workout after 8pm i'll usualy have a protein shake right after the workout and then some cottage cheese right before I go to bed. Of course it's not necessary to take the protein in the form of a supplement, i've just found that to be the easiest way to do it without significantly increasing my calorie/fat/cholesterol intake for the day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moistfly
    I'm sorry but to anyone stating that protein intake after a workout is unnecessary, that's absolutely ridiculous. I don't have the exact numbers in front of me but you're body makes the best use of protein within 20 - 25 minutes of physical activity, after that span of time your muscles go into a catabolic state and recovery is greatly diminished.
    unfortunately, you have this confused with carbohydrates. for e.g., see Jentjens et al., 2001

    Also, although most people will get plenty of protein in their diet, it comes in such large amounts that it is not an effective measure of the useful amount of protein they're consuming in a day. The upper limit for the amount of protein any body can handle at any one time is 40g's. That means for 180lb person who should consume 145g's of protein a day they'd have to be consuming 4 meals that contain almost 40g's of protein each. That's something almost nobody does. It's much more realistic to break that into several "snacks" a day based around taking a protein supplement.
    this isn't true

    ric
    www.cyclecoach.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by gonesh9
    So when is the best time to consume protein? Just anytime during the day? Also is it too late to consume carbs a few hours after intense exercise?
    probably not directly prior to exercise, and not (too much) during exercise. Just eat a normal mixed diet, that ensures your weight remains stable (unless you're actively loosing weight), making sure that carbs are ~ 60% of total energy input. Exact recommendations can be made knowing what type and how intense your training regime is

    ric
    www.cyclecoach.com

  11. #11
    You're just a fat kid Moistfly's Avatar
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    Rather than just rattling off some random name and a date how about actually posting a link referring to any of the actual findings. For example this summary of a book coming out based on research done at the University of Texas:

    http://www.active.com/print.cfm?cate...story_id=10485


    1. Consuming protein with carbohydrate during exercise can increase endurance

    It appears that the effectiveness of carbohydrate consumption during exercise is limited by the maximum rate at which the liver can release glucose into the bloodstream -- about 1 gram per minute. It's not hard to consume enough carbohydrate in a sports drink to reach this limit, and consuming any more will not help.

    But the muscles can also use protein for energy. A supplement combining carbohydrate and protein can therefore provide more energy and delay fatigue by allowing the muscles to conserve more glycogen (their main energy source).

    A study at the University of Texas compared the effects of a carbohydrate and a carbohydrate-protein supplement on endurance performance. Trained cyclists last 36% longer in a ride to exhaustion when fed the carbohydrate-protein drink than when fed the carbohydrate drink.


    2. Consuming protein during exercise can reduce muscle damage

    When protein is not consumed during exercise, muscle proteins are broken down for energy, resulting in muscle damage. When protein is consumed during exercise, such damage is minimized.

    This was demonstrated in a study done at James Madison University. Researchers fed either a regular carbohydrate sports drink or a carbohydrate-protein drink to subjects during a hard stationary bike ride and measured post-exercise levels of creatine phosphokinase (CPK) in the blood. CPK is a biomarker of muscle damage.

    The subjects receiving the carbohydrate/protein supplement had CPK levels 83% lower than those receiving the carbohydrate supplement, indicating significantly less muscle damage during exercise.

    4. Post-exercise nutrition reduces injuries and sickness

    In a remarkable new study, Marine recruits representing six platoons were assigned to one of three treatment protocols during 54 days of basic training. Each day after exercise, some Marines received a carbohydrate drink, others a carbohydrate-protein drink, and still others flavored water.

    The investigators reported that the protein-supplemented group had an average of 33% fewer total medical visits, 28% fewer visits due to bacterial/viral infections, 37% fewer visits due to muscle/joint problems, and 83% fewer visits due to heat exhaustion compared to members of the other groups. They also had less muscle soreness.

    This new evidence indicates that athletes in heavy training will stay healthier if they consume a carbohydrate-protein supplement immediately following each workout. Strenuous exercise suppresses the immune system, opening the door to infections. Carbohydrate and the amino acid glutamine fuel the immune system and counteract this suppression.

    5. Post-exercise nutrition improves performance in the next workout

    It stands to reason that if immediate supplementation after exercise results in a faster, stronger recovery, it could also improve performance in the next workout. The James Madison University study cited above showed this to be the case.

    After completing a performance ride on day one, the subjects of this study were asked to come back after a 15-hour recovery period. Upon returning, the subjects performed a ride to exhaustion at 85% of their VO2max. Subjects receiving the carbohydrate/protein drink during the initial performance ride the day before were able to ride almost 40% longer than those receiving the carbohydrate drink during the prior exercise.


    And since you didn't bother to actually back up your second assertion in any way I'll just assume you have no actual argument against what I said.

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    Peer reviewed data here rather than a book with no references http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=11457801

    for an overview of the latest research see here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=14579871

    there's an amino acid pool. check a physiology text.

    oh and check here as well for ACSM standpoint
    javascript:newWindow('/pt/re/msse/redirecthandler.htm;jsessionid=A24G7EBBpmdsGkCTZypP7oKbGcr7gdC48WXj1PyXj74yNe0F928i!1467714097!-949856032!9001!-1?name=1200&type=media','1200','width=550,height=500,location=yes,toolbar=yes,status=yes,menubar=yes ,scrollbars=yes,resizable=yes')

    sorry, you may need to click here and then select "position stand on nutrition and athletic performance" http://www.ms-se.com/pt/re/msse/positionstandards.htm;jsessionid=A24G7EBBpmdsGkCTZypP7oKbGcr7gdC48WXj1PyXj74yNe0F928i!1467714097!-949856032!9001!-1

    ric
    www.cyclecoach.com

  13. #13
    You're just a fat kid Moistfly's Avatar
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    Other then the first abstract I couldn't find anything that contradicted what I stated previously.

    In fact the acrobat document you posted stated explicitly that while protein will account for only 5% of an individuals energy during exercise protein will contribute to the maintenance of blood glucose levels ... of course that doesn't back up the assertion that it's necessary to intake a higher than normal amount of protein before or during exercise, but it also doesn't back up the assertion that it will have any negative effect, or that it wont have a positive effect.

    Also, the only information in that article I could find that directly related to optimal eating time for an athlete stated that it wasn't necessary to quickly try and rebuild glucose and protein stores in the body if the athlete would not undergo another training session within 24 hours after their initial workout.

    Granted I only read the 2 abstracts and half of the article, but there wasn't a lot there that really contradicted anything I said.

  14. #14
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    amongst other things they all basically state (along with other reseearch) that it's carbohydrates that are essential post exercise (not protein) and that supplemental protein isn't required, which is what i said originally.
    www.cyclecoach.com

  15. #15
    wonderer, wanderer gonesh9's Avatar
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    So how much protein does a person really need? I'm a lot sceptical of the 145g figure that was posted- I realize that everyone has different needs, but I've been vegan for 7 years and I've been fine on quite a bit less than that. I heard once something about Gov. Arnold saying you only need 2/3 of your body weight in lbs/grams. i.e. a 160 lb person would need 107g of protein per day. And I'm assuming this is only really for people trying to gain muscle mass or strength.

  16. #16
    You're just a fat kid Moistfly's Avatar
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    If you're trying to build mass i've seen numbers between .8 and 1.5g / lb of mass. For a 180lbs person that equates to 145g's of protein assuming the lower of the 2 numbers.

  17. #17
    randomness inc. HDTVKSS's Avatar
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    what really pisses me off about this is that theres too much conflicting information. how the hell do i know what to do when one study says carbos, another says protien??!!

    i work out with weights too, so normally after that ill have a protien shake. after a ride in the evening ( i do weights 3 X a week in the mornings..) ill have carbos with some protien. on this regiem i feel good. im by no means a nutritionist, but thats where my body seems to like it.
    You don't need proof when you have instinct.
    Im on the Floyd Landis Jack Daniels training program.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HDTVKSS
    what really pisses me off about this is that theres too much conflicting information. how the hell do i know what to do when one study says carbos, another says protien??!!

    i work out with weights too, so normally after that ill have a protien shake. after a ride in the evening ( i do weights 3 X a week in the mornings..) ill have carbos with some protien. on this regiem i feel good. im by no means a nutritionist, but thats where my body seems to like it.

    G'day,

    please don't start Ric on the 'benefits of weights to a trained cyclist'....it gives me a headache!,

    cheers,

    Hitchy

  19. #19
    randomness inc. HDTVKSS's Avatar
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    Hay Hitchy,

    on the other forum i think theres a 10 odd page running argument over weights and cycling. when they start getting all technical i start to tune out....

    50% seem to say yes do it, while the other 50% say no. i started not doing weights, then decidded to try them and found a huge difference. does the mumbo jumbo mean anything to me? no. do the results mean anything to me? yes!!

    Also im 25 and really really really unlikley to be entering the TDF anytime this lifetime. if i loose a few minutes due to more weight then so be it. If it costs me being a B grade mountain biker instead of a C then so be it. my ego isnt that large that it would hurt. the fun of the competition is what drives me. id prefer to have a all over good figure rather than the huge legs small upper body prevalent in cycling. its my choice and its what i do.

    I think Ric has some great articles on his site and ive been using them as guidlines for a while. what annoys me especially about the diet thing is that everyone and their uncle bob has done a study on it and no one can agree!!
    You don't need proof when you have instinct.
    Im on the Floyd Landis Jack Daniels training program.

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    g'day,

    yeah the great weights debate is lost on me as well......Ric is very much against it...much like protein!.....I do weights but high reps with lesser weight for endurance. I can't afford to 'bulk up' too much. I don't really understand any of the technical stuff about weights, all i know is what works for me. Edmund burke in his book "serious cycling' (I'm pretty sure thats the title) recommends them...so thats good enough for me. I think Ric would argue that I might actually be better off not doing them? (sorry if I've misunderstood your position on this, Ric),

    cheers,

    Hitchy

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    briefly, trying to sum up the last several posts:

    Carb requirements are huge for trained cyclists (that's those who race or could race, and train say a minimum of 75-min/day, and 3hrs/day weekend -- approximately --) the Carb requirements are 6 - 12 g per kg body mass per day. the 12g per day is what you'd expect if you were say doing a stage race, riding an awful lot every day or carb loading

    protein, moderately active 0.8 - 1.2 g per kg body mass per day
    Protein, regular training on bike, 1.0 - 1.5 g per kg BM/day
    Protein, heavy training (bike), stage race, etc, 1.5 - 2.0 g/kg/day

    Lots of weight training fits the upper end of the middle category

    1) there's very little conflicting information if you read good sources of information, in fact virtually every piece of good information will say exactly the same thing. Plenty of good quality carbs with small to moderate amounts of protein and fat.

    2) weights: if you a trained cyclist (i.e., you race or could race in non-track sprint/MTB downhill) then weights won't improve performance and are very likely to be detrimental

    3) weights (ii): if you want to train and do weights because you think it makes you look better or whatever reason, then that's fine. there's no compulsion in life to do what i say (i wish... everyone please send a check for lots of money!!!!!). all i'm showing is that the often held belief of weights improving performance isn't true at all. what you do with the info is up to you!

    4) "i'm not against protein" per se, i just said there's no need to take supplemental protein -- you can get all the protein you need in your (proper) food. trying to help you people save money and not buy stuff that basically ends up going down the toilet.

    ric
    www.cyclecoach.com

  22. #22
    You're just a fat kid Moistfly's Avatar
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    Well this is one argument that just isn't going to go anywhere but i'll post one last article

    http://magazine.mindandmuscle.net/ma...ID=5&pageID=66

    One that includes results and references from peer reviewed journals to appease Ric this time

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    apologies, as i don't have time to thoroughly read the article or see how they've 'used' the research in making that article.

    however, looking at the recap they draw, there's little or no evidence that supports such conclusions, which makes me think they've misinterpreted either by mistake or on purpose the actual research.

    for e.g., it's well known that recommendations for CHO intake for recovery are 1.0 to 1.5 g/kg BM, protein isn't required to aid (see the Jentjens article i mentioned previously) recovery (or very little amounts), and BCAA and creatine definitely aren't recommended for recovery. i'm pretty sure that this is the case with glutamine too.

    ric
    www.cyclecoach.com

  24. #24
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    I eat protein after workouts. My trainer/nutritionist told me to, and I found it didn't kill me or harm my body. I figure that they went to school and were athletes, and better safe than sorry. But to each their own; I like repaired muscles.
    Our Meek Blog
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  25. #25
    Don't Believe the Hype RiPHRaPH's Avatar
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    protein is not taken in during or after exercise as a supplement as much as it is a co-enzyme to uptake and re-uptake carbs and water quicker. the 4:1 ratio in accelerade is perfect for such uptake. this can be advantageous when there is a narrow window of opportunity to replentish yourself after hard efforts.

    most all the racers i train with add more protein to their diets (with food) in the 1st part of the week then switch over to carbs in the latter part heading up to the big weekend rides. it had worked for me.

    again, small amounts of protein help with water regulation and other nutrional needs. my understanding is that protein allows for less fluid shift and allows your body to accept carbs easier.
    I have enough words to get me into trouble, but not enough to get me out of trouble.

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