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  1. #1
    Industry Maven Thylacine's Avatar
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    Let's cut the crap, shall we?

    I think everyone is obsessed with 'buying the right product' to 'improve performance and recovery'. People want a 'quick fix' - a nice neatly packaged solutions to all their perceived problems, yet almost nobody focusses on diet! It's all about 'suppliments'! Almost to the point where 'suppliments' BECOME 'diet', which is ludacrous.

    My main question is what should I be looking at for -

    1) a drink during endurance exercise,
    2) what should I be eating/drinking post ride and
    3) before I go to bed at night to aid recovery?

    I'm a vegetarian and have just got back on the road bike and am building up some base miles in preparation for a good Summers' riding, and have what I consider a good diet. I loathe the hype and marketing bullsh1t involved in 'sports drinks' and 'dietary suppliments' - not to mention their super inflated prices - so what would people recomend for the following? Don't just shout out brand names at me - what core ingredients should someone be looking at for each, and what simple products would meet those requirements?
    Have you earned your stripes? <<click here / Questions about custom frames? Chat me! - warwickg71 (AIM/iChat) ThylacineCycles (Skype)

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    1) water is good. sometimes i'll dilute fruit drinks w/ water and drink those.
    2) i like: the consistency of yogurt, good bread (maybe w/ some tuna fish as well), buritto's, lots of fruit, etc. just basic 'good stuff'.
    3) don't know. but i drink a lot of water and wine most nights. water works better for recovery, but wine is more fun.

    basically, eat smart. i ride about 200 miles a week, most pretty hard, and i don't eat any energy bars or sports drinks or any of that stuff. you don't need it. if you like it, great, but it's not necessary.

    dan

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    One train of thought suggests taking branch chain amino acids (shake form is better than those horse-sized pills!). All of the aminos, essential and non-essential are for different things. Some rebuild muscle, some control appetite, some help with endurance... look it up on google and you'll see what each individual amino is for.

    As far as a drink during the ride, I like the new Propel fitness water better than the sports drinks. You're right, I hate them because they taste terrible and are just sodium and sugar! Poor hydration is probably the leading cause of poor performance, according to some riders......

    As far as food goes....everything I've read suggests that any diet is sufficient for an hour or less on the bike. If you want to build up endurance for long rides, carbo's are needed. I am leary of adding them back into the diet, though, for fear of gaining weight. The natural carbs, or sweet potatos, fruit, whole wheat products... are better than the sugary stuff.

    As far as night recovery, I drink a whey protein w/ amino acids. Protein is supposed to rebuild muscle and speed recovery without soreness.

    You know, this, like everything else I've learned about cycling, is all trial and error. You'll find something that works for you that would make me gain a ton of weight or have no affect on me what-so-ever!

    Chris Carmichael (Lance's coach) has just published a book---out 7/25/04--- called "Food for Fitness" or something like that. Check it out. He deals with these same questions every day! I'm going to read it when it comes out. I'll let you know.

    Kim in TN

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    Industry Maven Thylacine's Avatar
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    I'm doing about 300kms/200mi a week also. I know it's not a lot, but I have a new bike that I'm getting used to ( I'm a mountain biker pretending to be a roadie ) and am just getting some miles into the legs at this stage. I'm enjoying it.
    I'm definitely NOT enjoying the BS 'sports nutrition' crap that I seem to be noticing recently. The last time I was serious about road riding I just drank water and took a couple of bananas - even on huge rides up to 200kms long. I never thought to myself "Gee, what I need is a 4:1 carbo/protein drink in the flavour of 'icy blast' "

    Actually, I've been looking at other 'snack bars' at the organic grocer that might compete with the good old banana. Reading the nutritional information on the back of packs can be interesting.

    TrekChic - Speaking of just sodium and sugar, a person down here who has done the Ironman triathon a few times actually just drinks watered down orange juice....with salt added....during the ride stage. Yick! Can you believe that! She swears by it, too.
    Have you earned your stripes? <<click here / Questions about custom frames? Chat me! - warwickg71 (AIM/iChat) ThylacineCycles (Skype)

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    Senior Member Tom Pedale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hair07
    1) water is good. sometimes i'll dilute fruit drinks w/ water and drink those.
    2) i like: the consistency of yogurt, good bread (maybe w/ some tuna fish as well), buritto's, lots of fruit, etc. just basic 'good stuff'.
    3) don't know. but i drink a lot of water and wine most nights. water works better for recovery, but wine is more fun.

    basically, eat smart. i ride about 200 miles a week, most pretty hard, and i don't eat any energy bars or sports drinks or any of that stuff. you don't need it. if you like it, great, but it's not necessary.

    dan
    Careful with the amounts and frequency that you consume tuna fish....larger concentrations of mercury due to fact that it's a bigger fish that consumes smaller fish that have mercury as well...many articles on fish consumption and which ones have the lowest mercury content and recommended frequency and times/week it's safe to eat certain species..
    "Learn how to handle hot things. Keep your knives sharp. And above all, have a good time" - Julia Child

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    Industry Maven Thylacine's Avatar
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    I don't eat fish. I also doubt canned fish can, via regulations, could be high in Mercury. Sounds like scare mongering to me. Anyway, back OT.....
    Have you earned your stripes? <<click here / Questions about custom frames? Chat me! - warwickg71 (AIM/iChat) ThylacineCycles (Skype)

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    You need a new bike supcom's Avatar
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    1. Drink water. It's just the thing. If you going on real long rides, take in a sports drink (pick your favorite) or a little food to help replenish salt and keep the blood sugar up.

    2. Eat food. Eat whatever you like within your dietary goals. Carbohydrates are what you want, but a little protein won't hurt and a bit of fat makes it all taste good. I like to suck down a tall glass of Gatorade but that's just because is cold and tastes good. Studies have shown that carbohydrates taken within 15-30 minutes of exercise are converted to glycogen faster than food eaten later. If this is important to you, plan accordingly.

    3. Ibuprofen makes a nice bedtime snack if you are starting to feel a bit sore. Otherwise, there's nothing special about bedtime and nutrition. Do what you like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine
    I think everyone is obsessed with 'buying the right product' to 'improve performance and recovery'. People want a 'quick fix' - a nice neatly packaged solutions to all their perceived problems, yet almost nobody focusses on diet! It's all about 'suppliments'! Almost to the point where 'suppliments' BECOME 'diet', which is ludacrous.

    My main question is what should I be looking at for -

    1) a drink during endurance exercise,
    a carbohydrate-electrolyte sports drink of 6 - 8% solution. there are many drinks that fit this model, and ultimately the choice will be highly dependent on taste. added protein in drinks is marketing hype, and plain water should be avoided during exercise - as it can cause potentially fatal problems.


    2) what should I be eating/drinking post ride and
    i'm not sure of your fitness ability. after intense training that may be associated with those competing or training to compete then 1.0 to 1.5 g of carb per kg body mass should be consumed within say 30 to 60-mins post exercise. assuming you're not hypertensive, then fluid should have sodium in it to prevent diuresis and increased transport of water across the gut.

    3) before I go to bed at night to aid recovery?
    nothing specifically, just ensure you eat a mixed diet

    I'm a vegetarian and have just got back on the road bike and am building up some base miles in preparation for a good Summers' riding, and have what I consider a good diet. I loathe the hype and marketing bullsh1t involved in 'sports drinks' and 'dietary suppliments' - not to mention their super inflated prices - so what would people recomend for the following? Don't just shout out brand names at me - what core ingredients should someone be looking at for each, and what simple products would meet those requirements?
    i'm an ovo-lacto veggie, eating a normal diet (including a veggie one) is fine. ensure good amounts of carb, low amounts of fat, and ensure protein from a variety of sources, e.g., eggs, milk, cheese, beans, rice, grains, etc. there's no need to worry that you don't eat enough protein even on a veggie diet (assuming that you have some dairy - in other words a vegan may have to think some more, but even then with good planning won't be deficient even as an elite athlete).

    ric
    www.cyclecoach.com

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    Bike Happy DanFromDetroit's Avatar
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    Here are some things that work for me:

    Post workout recovery drinks/foods:

    Yogurt. Has 4:1 carbs/protein ratio and it is cheap.

    Milk and a frozen banana thrown in a blender. Use skim milk if you don't want as much fat.

    Drinks/food used while working out:

    I use just water for workouts lasting 90 minutes or less.

    I usually use water with GU about once an hour on workouts lasting over 90 minutes. I find that berry and orange work well for hot weather and chocolate and vanilla work well for cold weather.

    I have heard that glucose tablets (available from your local pharmacy) work well for keeping your blood sugar levels up during long workouts, but I have not tried these. They also lack electrolytes, so you might cramp up.

    If you don't want to buy Gatorade, try 1/3 water 2/3 orange juice with a pinch of salt. This has carbs and electrolytes, and it is cheap.

    Dan
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  10. #10
    Tiocfáidh ár Lá jfmckenna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine
    I'm doing about 300kms/200mi a week also. I know it's not a lot, but I have a new bike that I'm getting used to ( I'm a mountain biker pretending to be a roadie ) and am just getting some miles into the legs at this stage. I'm enjoying it.
    I'm definitely NOT enjoying the BS 'sports nutrition' crap that I seem to be noticing recently. The last time I was serious about road riding I just drank water and took a couple of bananas - even on huge rides up to 200kms long. I never thought to myself "Gee, what I need is a 4:1 carbo/protein drink in the flavour of 'icy blast' "

    Actually, I've been looking at other 'snack bars' at the organic grocer that might compete with the good old banana. Reading the nutritional information on the back of packs can be interesting.

    TrekChic - Speaking of just sodium and sugar, a person down here who has done the Ironman triathon a few times actually just drinks watered down orange juice....with salt added....during the ride stage. Yick! Can you believe that! She swears by it, too.
    I make a drink with one cup of OJ and 1/4tsp of salt and the rest water in a standard sized water bottle. If you look at the stuff in oj especially when fortified with vit e among others and compare it to Gatoraid for example, you get a lot more. imo it doesn't taste bad either. on real hard rides or long 100 mile or so rides I always get a 12 oz. coke somewhere in the middle too. Banannas are my other favs on long rides and I also like cliff bars. I like the cliff bars mostly b/c they don't melt and get nasty on hot days. For recovery I've been experimenting w/ Endurox and I believe it works for me, I'm not promoting this btw The stuff really is too expensive but I figured I will never know unless I test it myself.

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    Fruit juices, such as orange contain large amounts of fructose, which in many people cause GI distress.

    ric
    www.cyclecoach.com

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    I'm a mountain biker pretending to be a roadie
    Welcome to the club

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    I am always amazed at the diversity of responses when we get into the area of nutrition and supplements.

    There are the die-hard nutrition specialists who seem to know every content in every label, and have well stated theories about the interactions of all things. Sort of like a hobby, and almost on the verge of "cultism."

    Then there are folks like me who try to eat a well-balanced, low fat whole grain type of diet and who sort of assume that if you do that, it all works together and you do fine.

    So far, at 64, and riding about 150 miles a week, I am doing fine on the whole-grain, low-fat approach. Perhaps if I rode more, I would need to investigate different approaches to nutrition.

    Keeping it simple and so far doing fine in Colorado!
    Gone >> Gone >> Gone >> Gone >> Gone >> Gone >> Gone

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    i just drink water durring the ride, and before and after.. as far as diet goes i too am a vegy, so what i eat before the ride is some whole wheat pasta with avacado olive oil tomatoes and olives on top that gives me a good carb boost for the ride, and then after the ride i usaly get a blizzard from dairy queen ha ha i know. then for dinner i like to eat lots and lots of broccolie zuccini and squash, i also eat a lot of squash and sweet potatoes (lots of potasium and more filling and cheaper than bannanas). i eat about 4 times a day because vegies dont have a lot of callories, i am also a big fan of beans i eat about a can a day (wash them off and you wont get gas) and a lot of garlic and rice. basicly i only shop in the produce isle. just get as many colored vegys as possible and eat eat eat.

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    See? This is why this topic is so confusing! You get so many different answers. Water is nature's perfect drink. I can't believe it can be harmful if drinking it while working out?! That makes no sense to me!

    I forgot to read the label on the Propel water bottle this afternoon. I like the lemon flavored one.

    I am confused about the food/fueling thing, too. I have been increasing my time and intensity on the bike for the last few weeks and tonight, which was supposed to be a recovery ride anyway.....I rode about 5 miles and felt like I had been riding 50! I think I've either not eaten right this week or I've been riding too hard?!

    So, I guess it's back to the drawing board for me!

    Kim in TN

    OH.......and OJ, salt and water for a drink.........yecky!

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    Senior Member jarhead#42's Avatar
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    If you over 40 www.importhgh.com . If your wealthy , holistic blood doping .Its legal . If your over 65 , by all means , do consider EPO cause your red blood cell count has plummeted . Otherwise , ride 50 miles a day . and most important of all , Be happy
    holistic blood doping can be found by using google and its as legal as the air you breath .
    Jar

  17. #17
    Industry Maven Thylacine's Avatar
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    Well, I get enough callories, believe me. I've been a vegetarian for 10 years, so I'm not concerned about eating enough, getting enough protein etc - I did all my homework years ago.
    Interesting about the water during exercise deal. "fatal consequences"?? Sounds, err, dire. What would someone suggest as a good drink during rides? Ric, what do you mean by "6-8% Solution"? I can get Gatorade in powder form, any other preferences? I prefer homemade/low cost solutions, so is there any off the shelf, easy to purchase items that would be appropriate here?

    What do people suggest as a during ride food? I've taken everything from bananas to fig biscuits to hig zoot 'performance bars' and gels, and find it hard to be objective when it comes to any of these. Is there anything I should be avoiding in terms ingredients? What are the key ingredients in an easy to digest during ride food? Most of my rides are between 90 and 180mins.
    Have you earned your stripes? <<click here / Questions about custom frames? Chat me! - warwickg71 (AIM/iChat) ThylacineCycles (Skype)

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    Im no fitness expert but heres my 2c:

    im partialy vegetarian (probably bout 80% of my diet) and like you i dont feel i have too many problems with protien, however after working out with weights i willhave just one protien shake, followed by some oats.

    On a light training day ill eat a vegemite sandwich or 2 probably an hour or so before going out ( im normally at work soits whats on hand at the time) Also have a glass or 2 of water. On the ride i wear my camelback ( im a MTBer in disguise) and just go through some water.

    On a heavy training ride or on my weekend mtb rides i again have water in the pack and carry a bottle of powdered gatorade thats been mixed weak. Also carry some museli bars which ill have bout half way to 3/4 of the way through the ride. on getting home ill go have somthing to eat, some fruit, nuts etc.

    I tried GU on a ride and found it just made me feel fat and slow, not the way to be on a long weekend ride!

    G
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    Senior Member jarhead#42's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine
    Well, I get enough callories, believe me. I've been a vegetarian for 10 years, so I'm not concerned about eating enough, getting enough protein etc - I did all my homework years ago.
    Interesting about the water during exercise deal. "fatal consequences"?? Sounds, err, dire. What would someone suggest as a good drink during rides? Ric, what do you mean by "6-8% Solution"? I can get Gatorade in powder form, any other preferences? I prefer homemade/low cost solutions, so is there any off the shelf, easy to purchase items that would be appropriate here?

    What do people suggest as a during ride food? I've taken everything from bananas to fig biscuits to hig zoot 'performance bars' and gels, and find it hard to be objective when it comes to any of these. Is there anything I should be avoiding in terms ingredients? What are the key ingredients in an easy to digest during ride food? Most of my rides are between 90 and 180mins.

    Dried fruits ? I bonked once , the store had no power bars . So I picked up a bag of dried assorted fruits .
    jar

  20. #20
    You need a new bike supcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trekchic
    See? This is why this topic is so confusing! You get so many different answers. Water is nature's perfect drink. I can't believe it can be harmful if drinking it while working out?! That makes no sense to me!
    There is a condition called hypotremia that is caused by drinking too much water. Consuming very large amounts of water, especially if you are doing a lot of sweating, can dilute the sodium levels in the body. This is a very dangerous condition that can lead to death. That's the bad news. The good news is that the condition is fairly rare and generally requires long periods of heavy exertion in hot conditions. It is easily prevented by occaisional salt intake. This can be in the form of a sports drink, like gatorade, powerade, etc. or by eating some food containing salt. Just about any snack food will do.

    For most of us, hypotremia is not something to worry about. If you are taking 1 to 2 hour rides, it's unlikely that you will ever get close to running low on sodium.

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    Quote Originally Posted by supcom
    There is a condition called hypotremia that is caused by drinking too much water. Consuming very large amounts of water, especially if you are doing a lot of sweating, can dilute the sodium levels in the body. This is a very dangerous condition that can lead to death. That's the bad news. The good news is that the condition is fairly rare and generally requires long periods of heavy exertion in hot conditions. It is easily prevented by occaisional salt intake. This can be in the form of a sports drink, like gatorade, powerade, etc. or by eating some food containing salt. Just about any snack food will do.

    For most of us, hypotremia is not something to worry about. If you are taking 1 to 2 hour rides, it's unlikely that you will ever get close to running low on sodium.
    Certain meds, such as tegretol and trileptal, also cause hypoNAtremia.

    Iam currently taking trileptal due to a return of my trigeminal neuralgia.
    Gone >> Gone >> Gone >> Gone >> Gone >> Gone >> Gone

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jarhead#42
    If you over 40 www.importhgh.com . If your wealthy , holistic blood doping .Its legal . If your over 65 , by all means , do consider EPO cause your red blood cell count has plummeted . Otherwise , ride 50 miles a day . and most important of all , Be happy
    holistic blood doping can be found by using google and its as legal as the air you breath .
    Jar

    this is utter sh!te, it's also illegal

    ric
    www.cyclecoach.com

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by trekchic
    See? This is why this topic is so confusing! You get so many different answers. Water is nature's perfect drink. I can't believe it can be harmful if drinking it while working out?! That makes no sense to me!

    I forgot to read the label on the Propel water bottle this afternoon. I like the lemon flavored one.

    I am confused about the food/fueling thing, too. I have been increasing my time and intensity on the bike for the last few weeks and tonight, which was supposed to be a recovery ride anyway.....I rode about 5 miles and felt like I had been riding 50! I think I've either not eaten right this week or I've been riding too hard?!

    So, I guess it's back to the drawing board for me!

    Kim in TN

    OH.......and OJ, salt and water for a drink.........yecky!
    too much water (which will differ for everyone and also for different environmental conditions) can cause hyponatraemia -- dilution of sodium levels, which can cause kidney failure and death.

    in any situation you will also get conflicting advice, you have to learn to analyse what is good and bad information and how to interpret it. as a professional in this field (i.e., sports science, exercise physiology, professional coaching) i keep up to date with the latest data, and also generate similar data for research articles in peer reviewed journals. Thus, i would hope you find my information credible and useful. on the other hand some people will generate anecdotal evidence about how things may have occured to them, but conflicting variables in their n=1 study (i.e., looking at themself) may confuse the situation.

    water does seem like a great drink, and yes, for low intensity, short recovery spins this may be fine. however, if you're tired, training hard, regularly, intensely, doing a long ride, or some combo thereof, a sports drink with 6- 8% solution of carbs in water with electrolytes should be your first choice.

    you were most likely glycogen depleted last night. often, it's a good idea to drink a sports drink even on a recovery spin to help refuel your glycogen stores

    ric
    www.cyclecoach.com

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine
    What would someone suggest as a good drink during rides? Ric, what do you mean by "6-8% Solution"? I can get Gatorade in powder form, any other preferences? I prefer homemade/low cost solutions, so is there any off the shelf, easy to purchase items that would be appropriate here?
    Gatorade is a great drink, as is High 5, Science in Sport, Lucozade Sport, and likely others (these are the drinks i use)

    100 g of glucose polymer powder dissolved in 1000 mL of water would give a 10 % w/v solution, adjust the numbers accordingly for 6 - 8%

    ric
    www.cyclecoach.com

  25. #25
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    Is it ok to cut gatorade with water? Will I get the necessary electrolytes/ carbs? I ride 120-180 minutes a day. I use water and have never had a problem. I eat like a horse too, so there is probably more salt than I can use?

    Good topic Thylacine.

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