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  1. #1
    Banned. $ick3nin.vend3t's Avatar
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    Greg LeMond on Improving Lung Capacity... Your tips???...

    With a lung capacity of 92.5 ml/mn/kg, arguably the highest recorded in cycling, Greg recommend holding his/your breath for a certain length of time, several times in a row.

    Can anyone confirm this???...

    Would anyone else happen to have any great tips for increasing lung capacity???...
    Last edited by $ick3nin.vend3t; 04-19-10 at 09:35 AM.

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    Primate Metzinger's Avatar
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    Lung capacity and VO2 are not the same animal. Improving it means doing a lot more than holding your breath.

    My tips:
    Improve muscle vascularization. Training at anaerobic threshold?
    Increase heart stroke volume. Intervals?
    Have all muscle fibers replaced with slow-twitch ones. Surgery + donor?
    Be reincarnated as a quadruped. Good/bad karma + luck + tolerance for dog food.

    Bjørn Dæhlie, the xc skier, is reported to have hit 96 ml/kg/min during the off season. Some figured him for triple digits during race season. Did most of his training at 130bpm.
    He did some hill intervals for such a duration and intensity, that he collapsed after each one.

  3. #3
    Isaias NoRacer's Avatar
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    See:
    Ventilation and Endurance Performance

    http://home.hia.no/~stephens/ventphys.htm
    So, if you made it to the end of this novel, you may be disappointed to learn that there are no secret breathing tricks that will push you over the top. In general the lungs are wonderfully equipped for doing their job. Training does improve the ventilatory system in some ways, but it is not the weak link in healthy athletes.
    2009 mileage = 14,738 miles; 2010 mileage = 15,234 miles; 2011 mileage = 17,344 miles; 2012 mileage = 11,414 miles; 2013 = 12,169

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    WWBLD?

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    It isn't lung capacity that's limiting during exercise. Rather, other anatomical issues are more important. The superior aspect of the lungs are relatively poorly perfused when standing/sitting upright, meaning that there isn't enough blood there to pick up the oxygen you have.

    Bringing in more muscles to bring in more air also costs you more energy. Some have found this to be as much as the energy you get from the extra oxygen you bring in.

    Don't forget that ventilation is not linear with work rate, while VO2 is. At the ventilatory threshold, which generally correlates with the lactate threshold, it becomes exponential. You're not doing all that extra work because you're hypoxic, but to buffer blood acid via the bicarbonate buffer system (breathing off CO2 increases blood pH).

    If the lungs were all that is keeping VO2 from increasing, EPO would not have the effects on VO2 that it does. There are other physical barriers to performance.

    VO2 = HR * SV * (a-v)O2

    The terms of the Fick equation are naturally bounded on the upper end. HR is intrinsically limited, and at higher values can compromise SV. SV is constrained by not only the natural boundaries of the heart, but by the structures around it. A couple of Finnish studies found that removing the pericardium in pigs resulted in an increase in their VO2 max by as much as a third. They aren't upright during exercise like we are, though, which affects venous return. Arterial-venous O2 is affected by how much oxygen you can extract from the blood, and if that is not the limiting factor it's how much oxygen the blood can carry. The effects of EPO and blood doping would suggest the latter is limiting. Depending on the volume infused during blood doping, it could increase stroke volume to some degree, as well.

    The link in the previous post mentions transit time of blood being sufficient in most, but lower in elite athletes. This is another factor that affects (a-v)O2.

    There are limits to natural human performance. Lung capacity isn't usually limiting until you get older, and the elasticity of your rib cartilage is lost. Then, it's thought you can have reductions important to sports performance.

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    Pat
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    Yeah, Tadawdy is right. Lung capacity is not limiting to normal healthy individuals and atheletic performance. Blood coming out of the capillary beds of the lungs is essentially 99 % saturated with oxygen.

    The limitation is the amount of oxygen being delivered to the working muscles. The limit there is the amount of blood flowing to the muscles. That is why heart rate is an indication of intensity of exercise. Your cardiac output is pretty proportional to your heart rate.

    That is also why increases in hemoglobin concentration in the blood also helps aerobic performance. Of course, if you get too many RBCs, red blood cells, in your blood if you get a tad bit dehydrated, your blood become way too viscous and cause cardiac arrest. But that only happens with epogen abuse or blood doping and then in extreme cases.

    Mammals have pretty efficient lungs. Of course, birds are even better at it. Instead of having blind sacs, bird's lungs are essentially flow through systems. Birds in many ways are superior to mammals. They have mammals beat on nitrogenous waste excretion also.

    To get back to lung capacity though, having a larger lung capacity probably would not improve aerobic performance. Having a higher concentration of hemoglobin and a greater heart stroke volume would be far more important.

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    Banned. $ick3nin.vend3t's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoRacer View Post
    See:
    Ventilation and Endurance Performance

    http://home.hia.no/~stephens/ventphys.htm
    Thanks. Great article. The parts concerning rowing are fantastic (& inspiring). All I have ever rowed is a barbell & dumbell, might be time too purchase a machine, surely can't hurt.


    Quote Originally Posted by Metzinger View Post
    Bjørn Dæhlie, the xc skier, is reported to have hit 96 ml/kg/min during the off season. Some figured him for triple digits during race season. Did most of his training at 130bpm.
    He did some hill intervals for such a duration and intensity, that he collapsed after each one.
    I would absolutely love to know more about Bjørn Dæhlie's training regime. I did some research & found he had the highest VO2 on the planet. That gets my respect. It seems cross country skiers have the highest VO2's on the planet which a lot of scientists point towards more muscles being activated during the activity.

    Is it possible? Bjørn Dæhlie's started his cross country sking career at lets say a 60 ml/kg/min VO2 & developed it through training too a 96 ml/kg/min VO2???...

    1. What does Bjørn Dæhlie do during the off season (summer) when there is no snow on the mountain?. Does he jump ship & go where there is snow to train???...

    2. What does he supplement his cross country sking with???... Cycling?, Running, Hill sprints?, lift weights?.

    ???.
    Last edited by $ick3nin.vend3t; 03-08-10 at 05:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by *****3nin.vend3t View Post

    Is it possible? Bjørn Dæhlie's started his cross country sking career at lets say a 60 ml/kg/min VO2 & developed it through training too a 96 ml/kg/min VO2???... You say he trained at an impressive 130bpm. Surely this must be expanding the lungs a great deal.
    ???.
    Do you know he started as low as 60 ml/kg/min? VO2 max is mostly genetically-determined. People who start with higher values usually show less improvement here. He is obviously a genetic freak, but a 50+% increase would be particularly amazing.

    Another consideration is that if you look for highest-recorded VO2's, you'll find they are mostly xc skiers. VO2 is mode-specific; xc skiing elicits higher VO2's than cycling, because the upper body is involved. If you tested him on a bike, it would be lower.

    130 bpm sure is low for training, but his resting HR was also probably about 30 bpm, reflecting a low intrinsic HR and massive stroke volume. To put this in perspective, this is similar to the average fit guy going from 55 to 155; it's why training intensities are better described in terms of HR reserve rather than max HR. Where the low absolute HR helps is in conserving oxygen by reducing consumption by the heart itself.

  9. #9
    You gonna eat that? Doohickie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by *****3nin.vend3t View Post
    Can anyone confirm this???...
    I think David Blaine can.
    I stop for people / whose right of way I honor / but not for no one.



    Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."

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    Banned. $ick3nin.vend3t's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tadawdy View Post
    VO2 is mode-specific; xc skiing elicits higher VO2's than cycling, because the upper body is involved.
    Awesome.

    So, increased VO2/Lung capacity via involving the upperbody?. Cycling alone won't reach my full potential.

    I say awesome because of an endurance upperbody exercise I have been dedicated to for the past 5 months, I believe has paid dividends to increasing my lung capacity, so now I have an idea & feel mentally better that my time spent (training very hard) just the upperbody, wasn't for nothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doohickie View Post
    Lung capacity is significant for swimmers, since you do hold your breath.

    Utilizing the mammalian dive reflex can also help hold your breath longer.

  12. #12
    umd
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    Quote Originally Posted by *****3nin.vend3t View Post
    So, increased VO2/Lung capacity via involving the upperbody?. Cycling alone won't reach my full potential.
    Point missed. Whoosh.

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    Banned. $ick3nin.vend3t's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tadawdy View Post
    Lung capacity is significant for swimmers, since you do hold your breath.

    Utilizing the mammalian dive reflex can also help hold your breath longer.
    I would imagine Michael Phelps having an insane lung capacity, but that must be the case right across the board. If swimmers hold there breath with every stroke & Lemond states he used to recommend it, surely it must increase the capacity of the lungs?. Its something I have been doing for a while, just not on the bike but a lot more than the few times Lemond states in one workout but not as many as a swimmer doing hundreds of strokes per day training in the pool would put out.

    Interesting to hear elite rowers having the potential to develop huge capacities too, with regards to (big chests/strong upperbodys).

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    Banned. $ick3nin.vend3t's Avatar
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    On the bike today, my accessory breathing muscles (intercostals) are more sore than usual after performing no more than 50 breath holds. Can anyone place this to an increase in lung capacity, the added soreness?
    Last edited by $ick3nin.vend3t; 04-19-10 at 09:37 AM.

  15. #15
    umd
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    Quote Originally Posted by *****3nin.vend3t View Post
    So away from the EPO jargon which some people believe can turn a donkey into a thoroughbred .
    You are the only idiot that believes that.

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    Pedals, Paddles and Poles Daspydyr's Avatar
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    Well, dang,. from what you and others say, there is work involved in this lung thing. RATS!

    Seriously this is one very interesting thread. Thanks for getting it going.
    I think its disgusting and terrible how people treat Lance Armstrong, especially after winning 7 Tour de France Titles while on drugs!

    I can't even find my bike when I'm on drugs. -Willie N.

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    Pedals, Paddles and Poles Daspydyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by *****3nin.vend3t View Post
    , the added soreness?
    I think the sombreo is stressing the neck and other breathing muscles.
    I think its disgusting and terrible how people treat Lance Armstrong, especially after winning 7 Tour de France Titles while on drugs!

    I can't even find my bike when I'm on drugs. -Willie N.

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    When I run really heard I get "out of breath", however when I climb on my bike my whole body get really hot and tired but I am not out of breath?

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    Banned. $ick3nin.vend3t's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by v70cat View Post
    When I run really heard I get "out of breath", however when I climb on my bike my whole body get really hot and tired but I am not out of breath?
    I guess the issue is running enhances your VO2 more than cycling. The running seems to be having a good carry over effect (VO2) to your cycling. I find this to be the case also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by *****3nin.vend3t View Post
    I guess the issue is running enhances your VO2 more than cycling. The running seems to be having a good carry over effect (VO2) to your cycling. I find this to be the case also.
    The studies I've seen on this show that they both boost VO2 about the same. It's just that cycling is more-mode specific, i.e. running will help your cycling more than cycling will help your running.

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