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Old 05-02-10, 01:00 PM   #1
besposito
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Rule of Thumb for Time in HR Zones

To preface, I've done a couple of VO2 Max testing sessions with my coach, and from that we have determined my heart rate zones. I did one of these recently, and my heart rate zones changed from when I previously did it (which was when I first began cycling).

The question: my "supra-threshold" HR zone is 161-167 (I have a max HR of 177) and my "aerobic capacity" HR zone is 168-172. In today's race, however, I sustained 166 ("supra-threshold") for 20 minutes and 168 ("aerobic capacity") for 10 minutes. Should sustaining those zones for that long be possible (given the name of the zones), or do I need to tweak them?

Is there a rule of thumb for how long you can sustain supra-threshold/aerobic capacity zones?

FYI I also train with power; I just like the see how they correlate.
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Old 05-02-10, 11:27 PM   #2
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Totals for time-in-zone or sustained these HRs continuously for these periods?
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Old 05-03-10, 06:11 AM   #3
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Totals for time-in-zone or sustained these HRs continuously for these periods?
Sustained
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Old 05-03-10, 12:37 PM   #4
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If you're training with power I wouldn't worry too much about HR zones. As you are probably aware, there are many factors that can change your HR for a given power output. A race is significantly more intense than training and your HR can be higher than normal due to extra adrenaline, dehydration etc.

What was your power output (Avg or NP) during the 20 min?

Would changing the HR zones (or their names) change how you train or race?
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Old 05-03-10, 01:20 PM   #5
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A race is significantly more intense than training.
If racing is significantly more intense than your training, you need to look at your training more closely. Make training hard, race easy sort of thing.
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Old 05-03-10, 02:13 PM   #6
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If racing is significantly more intense than your training, you need to look at your training more closely. Make training hard, race easy sort of thing.
What was your last race?
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Old 05-03-10, 02:37 PM   #7
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I've done about that on a hard pass climb, while trying to hold the wheel of a better rider. The 10 minutes at 168 is not that hard, but the 20 at 166 which probably preceded it is hard. But not at all impossible with sufficient motivation. You're a tough dude. Good for you. Don't think you need to tweak the zones. They're doing what they say they do. You should notice an effect if you recover well.

You might also have been dehydrated, which is one reason power is now the thing instead of HR.
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Old 05-03-10, 03:35 PM   #8
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What was your last race?
As a complete one-off for me as I use cycling only to supplement, it was with a mixed bunch containing ex Cat 2 racers, keen sportive riders and TT riders in the UK. Because I'm so use to training alone & fast (99.9%) of the time, riding in a considerably large peleton that day & being shielded/drafted felt relatively easy, similar to a recovery ride. I wasn't going for the win, nor am I going to sprint, I had a game a few days later, so I finished in the bunch. I don't train specifically for cycling but if I did, I reckon I could easily hold my own even in a pro peleton from what I see on TV.

If your racing is tougher than your training, then you need to train race pace (or go above it) in training. Your body is only going to adapt to the strain that gets placed upon it.

Last edited by $ick3nin.vend3t; 05-03-10 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 05-03-10, 03:49 PM   #9
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As a complete one-off for me as I use cycling only to supplement, it was with a mixed bunch containing ex Cat 2 racers, keen sportive riders and TT riders in the UK. Because I'm so use to training alone & fast (99.9%) of the time, riding in a considerably large peleton that day & being shielded/drafted felt relatively easy, similar to a recovery ride. I wasn't going for the win, nor am I going to sprint, I had a game a few days later, so I finished in the bunch. I don't train specifically for cycling but if I did, I reckon I could easily hold my own even in a pro peleton from what I see on TV.

If your racing is tougher than your training, then you need to train race pace (or go above it) in training. Your body is only going to adapt to the strain that gets placed upon it.
Uh huh...
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Old 05-03-10, 04:41 PM   #10
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Uh huh...
I find being drafted relatively quite easy to handle. My training is far more intense when I'm alone than coasting in a peleton. A little more training specifically dedicated towards cycling, I could hold my own, in fact I know I could. Riders on flat stages, riding in big groups in pro peletons rarely look troubled, for large amounts of the stage. Even the guys drafting at the back trying to catch a break always seem to be untroubled. That is what I see anyway. Even the guys who do get dropped from the main peleton, it seems to be a strength endurance issue & not VO2.

I know some will disagree but rarely come out with a reason.

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Old 05-03-10, 04:45 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by besposito View Post
To preface, I've done a couple of VO2 Max testing sessions with my coach, and from that we have determined my heart rate zones. I did one of these recently, and my heart rate zones changed from when I previously did it (which was when I first began cycling).

The question: my "supra-threshold" HR zone is 161-167 (I have a max HR of 177) and my "aerobic capacity" HR zone is 168-172. In today's race, however, I sustained 166 ("supra-threshold") for 20 minutes and 168 ("aerobic capacity") for 10 minutes. Should sustaining those zones for that long be possible (given the name of the zones), or do I need to tweak them?

Is there a rule of thumb for how long you can sustain supra-threshold/aerobic capacity zones?

FYI I also train with power; I just like the see how they correlate.
When you say you have a max of 177, was that determined by testing or are you just taking that from the 220 minus age calculation?
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Old 05-03-10, 04:56 PM   #12
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When you say you have a max of 177, was that determined by testing or are you just taking that from the 220 minus age calculation?
Testing and from data from other races/training.
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Old 05-03-10, 05:01 PM   #13
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I reckon I could easily hold my own even in a pro peleton from what I see on TV.
I could easily win the Master's after watching Tiger Woods on TV. Looks like a piece of cake.

Oh, and when Kobe shoots hoops, it looks so effortless...like he's not even trying! I bet if I tried, I could compete in the NBA.
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Old 05-03-10, 05:24 PM   #14
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I could easily win the Master's after watching Tiger Woods on TV. Looks like a piece of cake.

Oh, and when Kobe shoots hoops, it looks so effortless...like he's not even trying! I bet if I tried, I could compete in the NBA.
There are technical, mechanical & most importantly, genetically gifted difference's between the sports. Its apples & oranges comparing, golf-basketball-cycling.

I watched literally hundreds of races. When cyclists can talk to each other in the peleton, 50 miles down the road, I could do that too ala A little more training specifically dedicated towards cycling.
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Old 05-03-10, 05:40 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by *****3nin.vend3t View Post
As a complete one-off for me as I use cycling only to supplement, it was with a mixed bunch containing ex Cat 2 racers, keen sportive riders and TT riders in the UK. Because I'm so use to training alone & fast (99.9%) of the time, riding in a considerably large peleton that day & being shielded/drafted felt relatively easy, similar to a recovery ride. I wasn't going for the win, nor am I going to sprint, I had a game a few days later, so I finished in the bunch. I don't train specifically for cycling but if I did, I reckon I could easily hold my own even in a pro peleton from what I see on TV.

If your racing is tougher than your training, then you need to train race pace (or go above it) in training. Your body is only going to adapt to the strain that gets placed upon it.
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Old 05-03-10, 05:43 PM   #16
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I know some will disagree but rarely come out with a reason.
I guess I was right. I knew I would be.
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Old 05-03-10, 05:47 PM   #17
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I watched literally hundreds of races. When cyclists can talk to each other in the peleton, 50 miles down the road, I could do that too ala A little more training specifically dedicated towards cycling.
They look like that because their threshold power is literally double yours.
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Old 05-03-10, 05:47 PM   #18
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You have too state your reasons, so I can object, or it shows lack of knowledge.
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Old 05-03-10, 05:50 PM   #19
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There are technical, mechanical & most importantly, genetically gifted difference's between the sports. Its apples & oranges comparing, golf-basketball-cycling.

I watched literally hundreds of races. When cyclists can talk to each other in the peleton, 50 miles down the road, I could do that too ala A little more training specifically dedicated towards cycling.
Sigh...while they're having a nice chat, they're also sustaining wattages that would leave most of us in another zip code, draft or no draft.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/...pinotti_112848

Go rent a powermeter, take a nice 4 hour and 40 minute ride one of these weekends, try to average 245 watts during said ride, and report back.
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Old 05-03-10, 05:55 PM   #20
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They look like that because their threshold power is literally double yours.
Thats strange, When I train alone I can average the same speeds what there doing in the peleton (pro) well before the racing starts (usually after 50-70 miles). (Thats alone). That is why I find drafting in a group not too be all that difficult at all. There are some stages when the peleton isn't even averaging 20MPH (drafting) for significant amounts of the stage.
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Old 05-03-10, 05:58 PM   #21
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You have too state your reasons, so I can object, or it shows lack of knowledge.
actually, you are the person showing a lack of knowledge here.
Since you train with power, let's see some power profiles data from you.
My HR data is flat-out amazing, but I don't have the massive wattage to back it up... so even though my heart can take large loads, I am showing up to a gun fight with a paring knife.
So far, several of the people who have posted in this thread are known around here for their race results and their wattage capabilities. As a matter of fact, you could look them up yourself if you'd like a base of reference.
Riding without a number pinned on and without a finish-line-camera means nothing, even if it was with strong cyclists... in all likelihood, a group ride probably has about a 30% in common with a race and 70% NOT in common with a race.

also regarding your "lack of knowledge" comment, several VERY strong cyclists have already posted in this thread, including forum members who do actually get contracts in the mail....

so -
wattage is the language of the land -
put up or shut up.
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Old 05-03-10, 06:00 PM   #22
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I'm just here for the popcorn...
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Old 05-03-10, 06:00 PM   #23
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to be clear - you very well may be a stunningly strong cyclist.
but if you haven't pinned on a number and entered a few actual-honest-to-god-races you and your assumptions are laughable.
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Old 05-03-10, 06:01 PM   #24
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I still think I could hold my own, regardless. I've seen the speeds what they average in peletons from 0-70 Miles on some stages & sometimes, its nothing to shout about.

I train faster than them speeds.

Being drafted at them speeds. Thats a completely different scenario.

I'm at 25%.
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Old 05-03-10, 06:05 PM   #25
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This all started by gregf83 saying... A race is significantly more intense than training.

Then I said...

If racing is significantly more intense than your training, you need to look at your training more closely. Make training hard, race easy.
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