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    Pain being induced during recovery phase, suggestions?



    So I seem to be experiencing pain that comes from the Hip Flexors (F)/ Recovery Phase. Can anyone relate with this or possibly suggest a certain adjustment that might eliminate this?

    Here is a video of me on a trainer if that helps:


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    soon to be gsteinc... rkwaki's Avatar
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    Seat back - try middle of rails - you look like you are pushing up/down rather than out/down. Your spin will change but seated power climbs etc will be much better.
    I would also hazard a guess that your flexibility is not great - try stretching/yoga.
    "if you ride it the way it's meant to be ridden there's no way any wife is less of a ***** than a bicycle." - gstein

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    Senior Member nkfrench's Avatar
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    Curious if the cranks too long?

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    I have been curious about this aswell although they are 172.5 so I can't imagine they are too long (I am 5'11"). But perhaps? One thing alot of people have commented on is that my seat "looks" very low. But I have been finding that if I raise my seat a bit the pain seems to be induced more. Perhaps sliding my seat back and raising it a significant amount would be the answer? Perhaps there is a "Sweet Spot" where I can induce this pain on my hip and either above or below would negate it?

    @rkwaki: I have just tried the suggestion of sliding the seat back, it doesnt really help the situation. I should note that the pain is ONLY on my right side and I have been actually stretching in order to try and help this. Thing is that I can certainly tell that during the upstroke I am tweaking something in the hip but I can't exactly figure out what it is.
    Last edited by dnuzzomueller; 02-02-12 at 02:33 PM. Reason: Added response to the threadjacker

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    soon to be gsteinc... rkwaki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnuzzomueller View Post
    I have been curious about this aswell although they are 172.5 so I can't imagine they are too long (I am 5'11"). But perhaps? One thing alot of people have commented on is that my seat "looks" very low. But I have been finding that if I raise my seat a bit the pain seems to be induced more. Perhaps sliding my seat back and raising it a significant amount would be the answer? Perhaps there is a "Sweet Spot" where I can induce this pain on my hip and either above or below would negate it?

    @rkwaki: I have just tried the suggestion of sliding the seat back, it doesnt really help the situation. I should note that the pain is ONLY on my right side and I have been actually stretching in order to try and help this. Thing is that I can certainly tell that during the upstroke I am tweaking something in the hip but I can't exactly figure out what it is.
    Nice reason for the edit

    I have struggled with the same issue, right hip, Try slowly moving the seat up and back a little further. It has nothing to do with the crank length.
    Contrary to popular belief you should not be pulling that much on the upstroke which may be tweaking your hip flexor - try pushing out then down. The best way to see this is do one legged pedaling drills on the trainer.
    "if you ride it the way it's meant to be ridden there's no way any wife is less of a ***** than a bicycle." - gstein

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    Haha yea I meant no offense by it just a little humor, I hope it wasn't taken in a bad light. (Almost said PITA instead of threadjacker)

    I also sort of came to the realization that the upstroke was the problem and as my cycling has progressed I have noticed that as my power increased (or maybe as I tried to increase my power) I started pulling up aswell. I wasn't certain if there was a seat position that helped "neutralize" the habit of pulling up. I will continue with these experiments (And probably video them for analyzation's sake).

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    soon to be gsteinc... rkwaki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnuzzomueller View Post
    Haha yea I meant no offense by it just a little humor, I hope it wasn't taken in a bad light. (Almost said PITA instead of threadjacker)

    I also sort of came to the realization that the upstroke was the problem and as my cycling has progressed I have noticed that as my power increased (or maybe as I tried to increase my power) I started pulling up aswell. I wasn't certain if there was a seat position that helped "neutralize" the habit of pulling up. I will continue with these experiments (And probably video them for analyzation's sake).
    First off you cannot offend me, that's my job.
    Secondly a cyclist's natural tendency is to pull up with the non dominant/power leg. Do me this favor, ride the trainer with one leg clipped in. Rather than mash the pedals up and down drop your heel a little and push out, due to being mechanically attached the the pedal that direction will change and your heel will slightly rise. Ride like this for 4-5 minutes then switch legs, do the same then clip both feet in at the same time and you will 'feel what I mean.
    "if you ride it the way it's meant to be ridden there's no way any wife is less of a ***** than a bicycle." - gstein

  8. #8
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Your pedaling form looks fine to me. I notice that your bars are so far down that you ride locked elbows. An aggressive position is great if you can stand it - maybe you can't, at least not yet. Low bars close your hip angle and make the hip flexor operate always in the contracted state. See how curved your lower back is? Your hips should rotate more forward, putting you more on your ichial tuberosities. Straighten your back. Find a bar position in which you are comfortable with bent elbows. You should be able to pedal fine with hands on hoods, forearms horizontal, elbows clear knees by a couple of inches or so. Be all that as it may, agree with rkwaki: OLP is good for what ails you. Ride the OLP with hands on bar tops, hip angle more open, back straight, head up. Effort low, cadence around 80, no more. The whole idea is to keep a taut chain. When you start getting slop in the chain, switch legs. Quit before you are completely pooped.

    You also need a big fan in front of you. I see the window fan, but not nearly enough. And why do 2 X 20 in early February? Base time now. Perfect everything at a lower effort.

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    Why am I doing 2*20s? Because I find the trainer boring without some motivation, I am young and foolish, I am trying to loose weight, all of the above. And yes before anyone says it I do realize that weight loss is made in the kitchen not the gym. Although I have to give credit to both rkwaki and Carbon boy, hip rotation is definitely helping it seems. My trainer session was significantly less painful tonight, mainly due to hip rotation and saddle adjustments. I am still getting a bike of pain though in certain positions so this new video (taken tonight) has sections where I indicate the area of pain. Both of these are relatively sudden onsets and I notice that the pain seems to come shooting up due to something I have done.

    So I have re-done the video and taken a few shots of the stem set-up I have. It is actually at it's max height spacer wise with a 90mm stem:




    Video:


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    soon to be gsteinc... rkwaki's Avatar
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    Take a look at the new video versus the first video, and compare the two. Before I say anything tell me if you notice anything?
    "if you ride it the way it's meant to be ridden there's no way any wife is less of a ***** than a bicycle." - gstein

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    Sadly I don't notice much of a change in my position. It seems like in the new video I am back a bit farther (As per the suggestion) but I don't notice anything radically different. I didn't move the seat too much in either direction (Incremental movements I would assume are best)

    One thing I noticed since it was mentioned was that I certainly feel like I might be stretching out too far for the bars. I can actually drop myself pretty low without any discomfort (I can place my head on the garmin unit with almost no stress on my back, finding a good spot for my hands is the challenge). I have always had a short torso for my legs so perhaps a 56 frame actually has too long of a TT with a regular stem for me?

    I can say that I didn't pull up on the pedals as much when I was focusing on "down and out" as you suggested. Problem I seemed to find while doing that was that it was hard to move my hips further back while keeping a comfortable grip on the bars.

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    soon to be gsteinc... rkwaki's Avatar
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    How tall are you?
    "if you ride it the way it's meant to be ridden there's no way any wife is less of a ***** than a bicycle." - gstein

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    Quote Originally Posted by dnuzzomueller View Post
    I have been curious about this aswell although they are 172.5 so I can't imagine they are too long (I am 5'11").
    Dun Dun Dun

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    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Rotate your bars, counterclockwise from the video viewpoint, so that the bar tops are level. You then might want to move your brifters a little further down the bend so that the base of the hood is also about level and a smooth transition from the level bar top. Your setup is the old way of doing it. Most folks have made this change. I think the new shapes of the brifter hoods have changed how we position our hands and wrists.

    Otherwise, you're looking good IMO. Nice out of saddle motion. Bend your elbows! Get used to that. You always want your elbows bent a good bit, and your elbows right behind your hands, close to your sides. The changed bar/brifter setup will make it easier to bend your elbows. You should be able to rest your wrists on the bar tops. Always be thinking aero. The trainer is a good place to think about these things.

    You're definitely not reaching too far for the bars. If anything, your stem is too short. Seated, hands on hoods, forearms horizontal, your elbows should clear your knees by 2" or so. Riding in the drops is about getting low. Hold the ergo part of the bend, hands way deep in the drops, back fairly flat. Riding the drops with straight arms is actually slower because your arm cylinders are very high resistance forms.

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    soon to be gsteinc... rkwaki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnuzzomueller View Post
    Dun Dun Dun
    Ouch, ballkick.

    Though not an expert I am wondering if your stem may be too short as well as your seat being too far forward. I am 5'11" and have the same crank length, longer torso and shorter legs (inseam is 32"). My stem is a 130mm, yours is a 90mm. Something doesn't add up. When going onto the drops your back should be extended and flat, yours is still quite arched. I am struggling a little on this one a little. Let me think...
    "if you ride it the way it's meant to be ridden there's no way any wife is less of a ***** than a bicycle." - gstein

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    Senior Member ericm979's Avatar
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    As pointed out already the way the levers are positioned on the bars makes the reach to the hood shorter than it would normally be. Your reach to the bars looks short, but that's a personal preference thing that should not affect your legs hurting.

    I recently realized that I do not pull up enough when I am pedalling. I've been trying to get myself to do it but it's difficult to keep it up. Not only do those muscles get tired quickly but I don't have the motion wired into my brain yet. Until last friday when somehow it 'clicked' and I couldn't stop doing it. By sunday my legs really hurt. The same muscle group that you are complaining about, but its on both sides and only when I ride.

    If your bike on the trainer has its front wheel blocked up to be level with the rear then the saddle position in the last video probably has the nose pointed down too much for long term comfort.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Garfield Cat's Avatar
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    I get that same pain and its always after the ride. Sometimes when I am standing, I feel that pain that does not want to go away no matter which way I try to alleviate it.

    The chiropractor told me to lay on the ground on my left side and find the hip flexors muscle and press it with my right thumb. So I massage it and it hurts but after a while the initial pain goes away. I think that helped. As far as the pull up stroke, I still do it intermittently. In a group ride, when I'm trying to close a gap, that sudden acceleration, I really deploy the pull up stroke. If I'm going less than 18 mph, not so much.

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    soon to be gsteinc... rkwaki's Avatar
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    As we are about the same size (height, proportions) here is my set up for comparison.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    "if you ride it the way it's meant to be ridden there's no way any wife is less of a ***** than a bicycle." - gstein

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    About the Bars: Yea I do realize that the position of the brifters and the bars are weird. Thing is I have been craving a Compact Bar style but I was offered a great deal on those S-works bars with the ergo bend. Long and short of it is that Ergo bars just aren't for me and I am sort of hunting for a good set of Shallow drop bars so that I can replace them (I am actually alright with a trade aswell if you know anyone looking for some S-works 42cm Bars! ). I will take that into consideration and I intend to re-do those soonish so we will see how that goes.

    About the Elbows: This is something that I will put more thought into. Interestingly I just came back from a ride and I seem to find it easier to bend my elbows when actually riding then when on the trainer (perhaps because I am normally trying to watch TV). Regardless this is probably more of a "Form" thing that I just need to work on, thank you everyone for pointing this out.

    About the reach: This is something that I have been experimenting with for some time. I have been swapping between a 90 and 110 stem for a while trying to figure out which one was going to help me sort out the hip issue. I actually run a 110 on my 56 Cyclocross bike. I may also swap out stems, I think first though I will experiment with sorting my bar rotation out and then see how I feel. For a while it seemed the less reach I had, the less pain I was experiencing, hence the short stem, low seat and lots of spacers. Thing is that I dont really experience back pain from either reach or drop being too large, my hip pain has been my limitng factor.

    About massaging the hip: I have done this aswell and it certainly helps but I have been a cyclist for many many years (Not always as driven as I am now though) and I have not experienced this pain before.

    About the Saddle Angle: I realize that the saddle angle is a little too low but this was more of an experiment in extremes this time around. During my ride today I certainly found myself slipping forward alot but I have come back from the ride with almost no hip problem whatsoever. For a while I was tilting my saddle backwards a bit, I am wondering if this is when I started to have issues (Issues arrived when I tried out a Specialized Romin instead of my Toupe, I am now back on the Toupe)

    Summary: Leaving my seat a bit higher, further back and now angled DOWNWARD has left me without pain for one ride so far, I will re-angle bars and shifters soon to be a bit more level. Pain really started when I tried out a Specialized Romin for a while (I am wondering if the angles associated with a curved saddle are bad for me?)

    In any case I want to say a special thanks to everyone here (Especially one specific PITA , rkwaki). One question I do want to Pose to you, rkwaki, is just this: Where on the saddle rails did you place the seatpost clamp and is that a set-back post? Or atleast is that post in it's set-back position? (If it is one of those reversible Aero posts).

    I will also post back upon further experimentation, may take a while though.

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    soon to be gsteinc... rkwaki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dnuzzomueller View Post
    About the Bars: Yea I do realize that the position of the brifters and the bars are weird. Thing is I have been craving a Compact Bar style but I was offered a great deal on those S-works bars with the ergo bend. Long and short of it is that Ergo bars just aren't for me and I am sort of hunting for a good set of Shallow drop bars so that I can replace them (I am actually alright with a trade aswell if you know anyone looking for some S-works 42cm Bars! ). I will take that into consideration and I intend to re-do those soonish so we will see how that goes.

    About the Elbows: This is something that I will put more thought into. Interestingly I just came back from a ride and I seem to find it easier to bend my elbows when actually riding then when on the trainer (perhaps because I am normally trying to watch TV). Regardless this is probably more of a "Form" thing that I just need to work on, thank you everyone for pointing this out.

    About the reach: This is something that I have been experimenting with for some time. I have been swapping between a 90 and 110 stem for a while trying to figure out which one was going to help me sort out the hip issue. I actually run a 110 on my 56 Cyclocross bike. I may also swap out stems, I think first though I will experiment with sorting my bar rotation out and then see how I feel. For a while it seemed the less reach I had, the less pain I was experiencing, hence the short stem, low seat and lots of spacers. Thing is that I dont really experience back pain from either reach or drop being too large, my hip pain has been my limitng factor.

    About massaging the hip: I have done this aswell and it certainly helps but I have been a cyclist for many many years (Not always as driven as I am now though) and I have not experienced this pain before.

    About the Saddle Angle: I realize that the saddle angle is a little too low but this was more of an experiment in extremes this time around. During my ride today I certainly found myself slipping forward alot but I have come back from the ride with almost no hip problem whatsoever. For a while I was tilting my saddle backwards a bit, I am wondering if this is when I started to have issues (Issues arrived when I tried out a Specialized Romin instead of my Toupe, I am now back on the Toupe)

    Summary: Leaving my seat a bit higher, further back and now angled DOWNWARD has left me without pain for one ride so far, I will re-angle bars and shifters soon to be a bit more level. Pain really started when I tried out a Specialized Romin for a while (I am wondering if the angles associated with a curved saddle are bad for me?)

    In any case I want to say a special thanks to everyone here (Especially one specific PITA , rkwaki). One question I do want to Pose to you, rkwaki, is just this: Where on the saddle rails did you place the seatpost clamp and is that a set-back post? Or atleast is that post in it's set-back position? (If it is one of those reversible Aero posts).

    I will also post back upon further experimentation, may take a while though.
    1. Try a 120mm
    2. My seatpost is not setback and is set right around the middle of the rails if not slightly back.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    "if you ride it the way it's meant to be ridden there's no way any wife is less of a ***** than a bicycle." - gstein

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    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Do you do any off the bike training (gym, yoga, stretching, weightlifting)?

    "Captain's Chair" knee raises and leg raises (slightly tougher) will strengthen the hip flexor muscles as well as your abs.



    I have had a coach prescribe these as part of every gym session. 3 sets of 20. Knees raises for the first few weeks then progressing to full extension of the legs. If you find them hard to do, then maybe that's where the strength imbalance is located.

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    Elitist carleton's Avatar
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    Oh, and I think your stem is too short. But, it's difficult to determine your arm and back angles due to the ultra wide-angle camera lens.

    I know we are all proportioned slightly differently, but I'm 6'1". I ride a 58cm tarmac with a -17 degree 120mm stem point downward (this offers maximum forward reach). I use Zipp Service Course SL short/shallow bars.

    This positions my hands horizontally slightly forward of the front axle when on the hoods and right over the axle when in the drops.
    Last edited by carleton; 02-03-12 at 07:42 PM.

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    I do these from a pull-up bar quite frequently, Abdominal strength is actually pretty good but good suggestion.

    I re-positioned my bars when I got home tonight. Moved the shifters down the bar and rotated the bar "counter-clockwise" as seen from the video. That has definitely increased my reach, I will experiment with that and then possibly move back to the 110mm stem from the 90mm stem that is currently on the bike.

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    Update!

    Okay so with alot of rkwaki's suggestions I have certainly made headway against this pain. After today's ride, a few cleat adjustments and checks, and a few seat angle adjustments I am feeling ALOT better. One thing that I notice is that hi pain seems to come up more often on the trainer then outside (Could mean many things but right now I will take it as another reason why trainers suck).

    On top of a few other things I ended finding a great deal for a professional fit which will be done Friday. But as a precursor to that I created one more simple video since I started to wonder if perhaps rkwaki was onto something with the cleat especially after the fitter told me that he thought that perhaps I had leg length discrepancies (Something that had been running through my mind for a while). Since I have gotten the issue more or less fixed this could be redundant but I am curious if anyone else thinks I am bowing my knee too much one direction or another.



    For anyone else experiencing my problem: Try to modify seat position so that you don't pull up too much during the recovery part of your stroke. For me that was raising the seat and sliding it back even though I was initially finding relief in lowering my seat.

    THANKS: To everyone who helped and made suggestions, can't believe that BF actually fixed something for once . I want to say a special thanks to rkwaki (but I refuse to provide sexual favors), he was particularly helpful through this issue that has been bugging me for months, thanks Captain Nonsense for all the help, it really is appreciated.

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    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    During OLP it looks like your knee does go out a bit at the top of the stroke. However I ride with guys who do fast 1200s who have worse knee motion than that. However, you have a lot of other motion. Get rid of all of it. The bike should be almost totally still. Your upper body shouldn't rock back and forth. Mess with your pedal stroke until you figure out how to do that. Practice by starting real slow, like 50 cadence and eliminate it there. At that cadence, gradually increase the resistance until it is hard and you still don't move. Then over time, gradually increase the cadence until you are quiet at 120.

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