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  1. #1
    Senior Member FujiKid's Avatar
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    Quick question on being on the trainer, in a fasted state

    ^^^ Above title


    Basically, during the 5 days of the week. Mon - Friday. I wake up. Pop a caffeine tablet and hop on the trainer for an hour, my main goal is to get faster/stronger. I ride for an hour after my mid-day class usually, then head off to work.

    My average heart rate is around, 149-153 bpm in my morning workouts and I've gotten up to 165 bpm. (Age 18 , Max HR: 202 bpm, 141 lbs, 5'8)

    I had a couple of questions.

    1) Is this detrimental in any way? I've heard that working out in a fasted state has it's benefits.
    2) What should I consume before/after the workouts? Usually I train fasted, head off to class for 2 hours then head back and have some oatmeal.
    3) I NEVER drink water on the bike, is this bad? Since I'm only training for an hour, I usually drink afterwards.
    4) Is there a specific heart rate zone I should aim for?

    I'm sure there are more questions.

    Thanks

  2. #2
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    I've done that, but drank a cuppa rather than taking a tab, which helps with the early morning rehydration a bit, I think. Either zone 1 or zone 2, depending on how you feel. I wouldn't do anything harder. If you're not thirsty, no need. I would sure have something to eat afterwards, but if you're doing fine like this, why change? It's a good routine, but you'll want to do something more later in the day, a real ride outside, preferably with some hills, but not necessarily every day. I did the morning ride whether I would go out later or not. If you live in snowland, maybe you could hit the gym. I never rode outside during the week when it was raining, either, as the bike maintenance took too much time. One long rain ride a week is enough for me, but I'm not a racer. I used the morning ride just for base, kept it down, saved the glycogen for later.

    Fun to be riding when you're 18, isn't it? It's still fun at 66.

  3. #3
    Senior Member ljsense's Avatar
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    1. No. Can have some benefits for weight loss.
    2. You should eat that oatmeal before class if you want to recover better
    3. For a moderate hour, there's no reason to avoid drinking water. But you can make it without it.
    4. Yeah, aim for 202 once in a while.

  4. #4
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    I'd add a protein supplement immediately after the workout. Also, +1 on moving oatmeal to before class.
    Last edited by eugenek; 03-06-12 at 01:55 PM.

  5. #5
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    Unless you are trying to lose weight you should eat more. While you are in your fasted state your body will burn whatever it can to keep going, this will often be atleast 60% muscle. Now where it gets tricky is if you eat before workout your stomach will probably object so you can get up a little earlier and eat something light, say bannana, and then imediately after you should get some protein and carbs, like yogurt or oatmeal and cottage cheese or eggs. I am not a fan of protein powders as they are expensive and overly marketed to young people as a magic elixer. You should drink some water while you train it will help your body metabolize fat more efficientlly. Your workout also seems to be geared towards weight loss and endurance. For power you should get something heavy and do squats or lunges, or do some box jumps. As far as on the bike training use HIIT. Simulate (or do) hill sprints. To get faster you have to go faster so ride as fast as you can for as long as you can than rest and repeat (HIIT) and you should definitely get your heart rate to atleast 90- 95% a couple times during your hard workouts but dont leave out your steady workouts either mix it up

  6. #6
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    It just dawned on me ( as I was chewing some)..Take some trail mix on your way to class. Nuts are a great source of protein and good fat and the raisins and m&ms will get you the carbs you need not to mention...YUM

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by digger531 View Post
    Unless you are trying to lose weight you should eat more. While you are in your fasted state your body will burn whatever it can to keep going, this will often be atleast 60% muscle.
    Wrong. Being in the fasted state doesn't mean your muscles don't have stored glycogen available.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
    Wrong. Being in the fasted state doesn't mean your muscles don't have stored glycogen available.
    If your in a "fasted state" your muscles will have used their glycogen stores.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by digger531 View Post
    If your in a "fasted state" your muscles will have used their glycogen stores.
    Only if you didn't eat at all since the last major workout. If you had a good dinner the previous evening, there should be plenty of glycogen in the muscle in the morning.

    Regardless, cycling for an hour at 150 bpm will cause some muscle damage. If you don't eat anything before or after the workout, and your first meal (oatmeal) only comes 2 hours later and it has almost no protein, that damage will not be repaired for a long time. If you are on a high-carbohydrate diet and you exercise 5 days a week, it may even accumulate.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
    Wrong. Being in the fasted state doesn't mean your muscles don't have stored glycogen available.
    Normally I wouldnt let this get to me but for some reason it is really eating at me. First an most importantly, How does this help the OP? You might just as well correct my spelling and punctuation. I am not a doctor or scientist, although I have done a ridiculous amount of research on this topic as a weight lifter. I am also not writing a thesis or, an article for the boston medical journal. I am simply giving the OP advice, from memory, on how to get faster and stronger ( which is what he asked). If your opinion is different, than please state it but if all you are going to do is point out what you believe to be errors in my facts than #$%$#^%$& you!

  11. #11
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digger531 View Post
    Normally I wouldnt let this get to me but for some reason it is really eating at me. First an most importantly, How does this help the OP? You might just as well correct my spelling and punctuation. I am not a doctor or scientist, although I have done a ridiculous amount of research on this topic as a weight lifter. I am also not writing a thesis or, an article for the boston medical journal. I am simply giving the OP advice, from memory, on how to get faster and stronger ( which is what he asked). If your opinion is different, than please state it but if all you are going to do is point out what you believe to be errors in my facts than #$%$#^%$& you!
    If you want to post on this forum, my advice is: get used to getting called on it when your facts are wrong. Most people are here to learn, not to get in ****ing matches. Learning is usually associated with absorbing facts rather than opinion. It's a wonderful thing to learn something, which frequently means finding out that one was wrong or had a vague memory of some fact, which was actually not a fact at all. So congratulations, you might learn something!

    Greg has helped the OP by pointing out that when you wake up in the morning, your muscles have just as much glycogen in them (if not more!) as they did when you went to sleep. That's a fact. You can look it up.

    Your brain runs on pure glucose, and it uses a good bit of it. It's only about 2% of body weight, but uses about 20% of non-athletic energy since it's always working, even when you're asleep. At night it gets glucose by breaking down liver glycogen. The average liver stores somewhere around 400 calories of glycogen. So if you burn 2000 calories at base, about 400 of those will be burned by the brain during a day. 8 hours of sleep = 1/3 of the day, so about 130 calories out of the 400 stored by the liver get burned while asleep. And the 1500-2000 calories of muscle glycogen are of course untouched, since most folks don't exercise aerobically while asleep.

    So it's a fallacy that one has low blood sugar in the morning because one doesn't have any glycogen. In truth, one's blood sugar is most stable in the morning because one hasn't yet started the sugar/insulin cycle that goes on after we have begun to eat. I have a Type 1 diabetic friend who always shows up for the Sunday group ride fasted and doesn't eat until we are about 10 miles into it. He says his blood sugar stays the most stable with that tactic, because by the time he starts to eat, his metabolism has shifted over to energy production, which tends to stabilize blood sugar levels.

    OTOH, unless someone has personal experience to the contrary, I would suggest not doing a lot of intervals or other hard efforts before breakfast. One's fat metabolism will be able to supply energy for moderate aerobic work, but before one starts dipping deeply into the muscle glycogen, I think it would be a better idea to have some blood sugar also being supplied by digestion. You may have picked this up from weight lifting, since that is frequently entirely anaerobic and thus can be glycogen intensive.

  12. #12
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    To the OP. Eat. The only way to get stronger is to eat. 20 yrs ago eggs were bad for us 10yrs ago cpr was using a 5-1 count and as early as 5 yrs ago coffe was bad. Today we KNOW that all that was BS eggs are good, cpr doesnt use breaths at all (just this year, who knew) and coffe helps prevent prostate cancer (there's a long list of coffee's benefits). The point here is that all the science being spouted around here really isn't science as much as theory (which is what science is) it was certainlly different 10 yrs ago and will certainly be different 10 yrs from now. I do stand by my original post (second one could have been worded better) if you dont eat you will burn alot of muscle in an hour long workout at 150bpm. Even on a weight loss specific plan this would not be recomended.
    Last edited by digger531; 03-10-12 at 08:34 AM.
    I do not claim to be a doctor, scientist, genie, bike magician, good looking, or qualified in any way. The contents of my post are opinions and should be taken as such.

  13. #13
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digger531 View Post
    To the OP. Eat. The only way to get stronger is to eat. 20 yrs ago eggs were bad for us 10yrs ago cpr was using a 5-1 count and as early as 5 yrs ago coffe was bad. Today we KNOW that all that was BS eggs are good, cpr doesnt use breaths at all (just this year, who knew) and coffe helps prevent prostate cancer (there's a long list of coffee's benefits). The point here is that all the science being spouted around here really isn't science as much as theory (which is what science is) it was certainlly different 10 yrs ago and will certainly be different 10 yrs from now. I do stand by my original post (second one could have been worded better) if you dont eat you will burn alot of muscle in an hour long workout at 150bpm. Even on a weight loss specific plan this would not be recomended.
    150 for the OP is 74% of max, which places him right at the top of zone 2, 124 for me. I don't usually go quite that hard fasted, getting a better result averaging about 118, which would be 142 for the OP. I always have a bottle of sports drink with me. If I start to feel light-headed, I take a drink.

    About the protein, there is no reason to think that consuming protein just before or during a bike ride will have any effect on performance. See:
    http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/1...e-performance/

    However it is well established that consuming protein after exercise is beneficial. On very long bike rides, say over 200k, it is also well established that consuming protein during the ride is beneficial, just like it is during the course of any day.

  14. #14
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    well now that we are getting closer to the same page, The OP says his main goal is to get stronger and faster. Would you not agree he needs to eat?
    I do not claim to be a doctor, scientist, genie, bike magician, good looking, or qualified in any way. The contents of my post are opinions and should be taken as such.

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger531 View Post
    I do stand by my original post (second one could have been worded better) if you dont eat you will burn alot of muscle in an hour long workout at 150bpm.
    You're still wrong.

    Edit: I'd elaborate but I think Carbonfiberboy provided a good summary of the basics. And any info I provide would be basic on scientific research which you don't believe in so carry on.

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    This seems relevant: http://jap.physiology.org/content/48/4/624.short

    Glycogen-depleted cyclists pedaling for one hour at 61% VO2max experience protein breakdown equivalent to 10% of total caloric cost of the exercise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eugenek View Post
    This seems relevant: http://jap.physiology.org/content/48/4/624.short

    Glycogen-depleted cyclists pedaling for one hour at 61% VO2max experience protein breakdown equivalent to 10% of total caloric cost of the exercise.
    This study applies when you have depleted your muscle glycogen. As Carbonfiberboy mentioned, if you eat normally your muscles won't be depleted in the morning after a fast. For the study mentioned they exercised the previous afternoon for an hour and then ate zero carbs for dinner. In that case I agree you would utilize protein.

  18. #18
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eugenek View Post
    This seems relevant: http://jap.physiology.org/content/48/4/624.short

    Glycogen-depleted cyclists pedaling for one hour at 61% VO2max experience protein breakdown equivalent to 10% of total caloric cost of the exercise.
    However, this is the reason that very long distance riders, like those who do 1200k rides, RAAM and RAAM qualifiers usually consume between 15% and 25% of their calories in protein. Which is totally irrelevant to the OP's question, though it is interesting and something to keep in mind should one be interested in long distance riding. It is also the reason that it is important to use a recovery drink and then a high-carb recovery meal after a depleting ride if one plans on riding again that day or early the next day.

  19. #19
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    It occurs to me that I should make another point here. Frequent commenters on these T&N threads may post corrections to other comments, not to diss or argue with another commenter, but rather to attempt to leave a correct record for future readers. Many people use these comment threads for reference purposes. For instance I see that right now there are 58 people viewing this forum.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
    This study applies when you have depleted your muscle glycogen. As Carbonfiberboy mentioned, if you eat normally your muscles won't be depleted in the morning after a fast. For the study mentioned they exercised the previous afternoon for an hour and then ate zero carbs for dinner. In that case I agree you would utilize protein.
    Now this study is wrong too? Hmmm? Funny how everyone with an internet connection is an expert these days. Yes, myself included. The point still remains excersizing in a fasted state is not a good idea. A half hour ride in the morning would be one thing, still not recomended by anyone, but an hour ride at 75% MHR should not be done in a fasted state. The OP specifically states his MAIN goal is to get STRONGER and FASTER. So if everyone could please agree that he should EAT.
    I do not claim to be a doctor, scientist, genie, bike magician, good looking, or qualified in any way. The contents of my post are opinions and should be taken as such.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by digger531 View Post
    Now this study is wrong too? Hmmm? Funny how everyone with an internet connection is an expert these days. Yes, myself included. The point still remains excersizing in a fasted state is not a good idea. A half hour ride in the morning would be one thing, still not recomended by anyone, but an hour ride at 75% MHR should not be done in a fasted state. The OP specifically states his MAIN goal is to get STRONGER and FASTER. So if everyone could please agree that he should EAT.
    No the study is not wrong just not applicable to the OPs question.

    There are some who recommend training in a fasted state: Beneficial metabolic adaptations due to endurance exercise training in the fasted state. but I agree it won't make you faster.

  22. #22
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
    No the study is not wrong just not applicable to the OPs question.

    There are some who recommend training in a fasted state: Beneficial metabolic adaptations due to endurance exercise training in the fasted state. but I agree it won't make you faster.
    Though the abstract says it will - just not any faster than training while fed. However, if I'm reading Chapple correctly, he thinks that increasing "the exercise intensity corresponding to the maximal rate of fat oxidation" will make you faster, because "F is more effective than CHO to increase muscular oxidative capacity". Though Chapple isn't recommending training while fasting, just training at the lower training threshold specifically to increase the rate of fat oxidation, the 70% of VO2max being about the right spot for that.

    Your thoughts?

    Also, "In addition, F but not CHO prevented drop of blood glucose concentration during fasting exercise" which is the experience of my diabetic friend, as I related.

  23. #23
    Senior Member FujiKid's Avatar
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    Thanks for the input guys. I think I got my answer.

  24. #24
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    I just recently read something similar to this recently that said, more plainly, you should ocasional train in a fasted state so that if you got into a hard match (racquetball) you would have an advantage over your opponent because your body would have adapted to this situation. I would think this is also like some special forces deprivation training but I dont think its pertinent to this discusion considering that FujiKid wants to get stronger. It does make an interesting point for endurance riding however. I use to train in a fasted state all the time, hence why I know its bad, and I can do centuries quite easily with out eating or drinking anything other than water. Comparitively, others I ride with and talk to, eat constantly while on long rides. Now I am curious (that cant be good).

    FujiKid- what did you decide to do?
    I do not claim to be a doctor, scientist, genie, bike magician, good looking, or qualified in any way. The contents of my post are opinions and should be taken as such.

  25. #25
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    It does strike me somewhat odd that endurance runners dont use this type of training. For that matter, I also have never heard of any training for the Tour in this fasion. Plenty of stories about them drinking vegetable oil but never fasting.
    I do not claim to be a doctor, scientist, genie, bike magician, good looking, or qualified in any way. The contents of my post are opinions and should be taken as such.

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