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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by hambertloot View Post
    People just tend to train to hard too soon. Focus, like the first replier said, on riding ~6 days a week(i tend to enjoy one full day off per week of no riding, just helps mentally and physically to not ride). Do your rides at an easy intensity. One ride per week should be a long slow effort of 3+ hours. Keep the rest around 1-1.5 hours, and GRADUALLY increase the normal rides until you can do about 1.5-2 hours on 5 days a week and 4+ hours one day a week

    It isn't until you have a strong aerobic base to be able to benefit from this anaerobic, high intensity training. And just remember, pro riders hit MHR at most once per month. No need to push extremely hard, but enough resistence to improve

    I say, do the least amount of training as possible to reap the most fitness

    This may sound boring to you to just ride and not do high intensity, but it is so worth it. One day a week I hit it hard with hills. One day a week I do a long, easy ride (16-17mph) of 100k+. One day is completely off the bike. One day is recovery of 30-60minutes. The rest are easy 1-2hr rides

    Hope the best for you!!
    Yeah, the the 3+ hr ride pretty much wipes out the bulk of my available time for the week -- maybe once or twice a month, but nothing consistent. I'd end up doing no exercise at all for 3 days a week and missing the fun rides. And yes, that sounds painfully boring. But I get the idea about the longer rides. May have to revisit the idea of sitting on the trainer and attempting to create some tangible work product while training.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by caloso View Post
    Really? Are you sure? Read the descriptions. Unless you are going out for a steady diet of 3x3's and standing start sprints, those are not intervals that a rider would typically just find himself doing on a solo ride.
    Yes, that's my idea of a fun solo ride. Either riding through my subdivision as fast as possible and then recovering for a 1-2 minutes when I blow, or sprint sessions followed by hill repeats on a big gear for about an hour total.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericm979 View Post
    You should read a book on training and physiology rather than asking a forum, where the answers will vary widely in quality and even the best will be too brief.

    I suggest Thomas Chapple's Base Building book as it has the best explanation of the physiology.
    Thanks for the suggestion. The reviews for Base Building sound like it's short on training plans and long on explanation, which is exactly what I want, may get this one. The forum gives me different perspectives, I'd have to buy a lot of books to get that.

  4. #29
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    I guess walking or running can exactly give you what you get from aerobics,And also stretching ball is a good option.
    Basically what i feel is running is even better if it doesn't suit you go for a walk that easy and very useful.


    rehab documentation software
    Last edited by Bentonjoe; 06-22-13 at 06:20 AM.

  5. #30
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    My experience is that a good way to get some aerobic base is to go for a 4-5 hour ride at whatever intensity it takes to have you staggering a little at the end. Then the next day do 3-4 hours at an intensity that has your legs comfortable the whole way, no effort, gear way down on hills. Then during the week, do whatever rides and intervals your recovery allows you. That's maybe more riding than your available time allows. If your time is short, it's best to do about like you've been doing, concentrate on the upper end. The upper end brings the lower end along better than vice versa. That's why the Time Crunched Cyclist has changed today's thinking away from doing easy rides when time is short. The pros and other dedicated racers do a lot of easy rides because they have almost unlimited time to put into it.

    Perhaps the basic answer is that anaerobic training is not pure anaerobic. There's always an aerobic component. You may not have enough time for "pure aerobic training" to produce the results you're looking for. You might want to read Carmichael's Time Crunched Cyclist.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    Perhaps the basic answer is that anaerobic training is not pure anaerobic. There's always an aerobic component. You may not have enough time for "pure aerobic training" to produce the results you're looking for. You might want to read Carmichael's Time Crunched Cyclist.
    That's part of what I'm trying to flush out. The Coggan chart seems to indicate there is a definite cutoff at the top two zones where there would be very little or no aerobic benefit. That point also seems to be an area where you run into many differing opinions. From my own anecdotal experience I'd have to say I'm not getting much aerobic benefit from staying at the anaerobic side of the zones and I can't judge anaerobic cycling benefits because it's something that tends to come naturally to me anyway with a minimum of work. The other question that I've never found a decent explanation for is the difference between, for example, 3 hours of steady work with no break, and 3 hours with several short breaks to eat and rest. In other words is there something magical about a slow and steady, no break ride that you can't get from covering the same distance in the same amount of time with breaks?

    I don't consistently have the time required for one 4-5 hour ride, plus other rides the remainder of the week. Also as much as I like to ride, 4-5 hours reaches a point where I just don't care to sit on a bike that long, unless I'm actually going somewhere. For the next three months it's getting too hot to ride fast anyway, so I'm going to test out doing a slow and steady 2-3 hour ride once a week every week for a few months and see what happens. Which may only prove what I know already without answering either question, that working on the weakest link is low hanging fruit when looking for improvement.

  7. #32
    Travelling hopefully chasm54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprince View Post

    I don't consistently have the time required for one 4-5 hour ride, plus other rides the remainder of the week. Also as much as I like to ride, 4-5 hours reaches a point where I just don't care to sit on a bike that long, unless I'm actually going somewhere. For the next three months it's getting too hot to ride fast anyway, so I'm going to test out doing a slow and steady 2-3 hour ride once a week every week for a few months and see what happens. Which may only prove what I know already without answering either question, that working on the weakest link is low hanging fruit when looking for improvement.
    A 2-3 hours ride is a good thing, but if you do it only once a week, progress is going to be slow. That simply isn't enough time on the bike.
    There have been many days when I haven't felt like riding, but there has never been a day when I was sorry I rode.

  8. #33
    Senior Member ericm979's Avatar
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    It depends on the rider's goals- that little training volume would work for criterium or track racing.
    If the goals are centuries or long road races, then it's not enough.

    Did the OP state his goals and I missed them? Any specific training advice made without knowing the rider's goals are no better than picking random workouts from the internet.
    Making a training plan should start with deciding on the goals.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericm979 View Post
    Did the OP state his goals and I missed them?
    No centuries, road races, or criteriums. Track would be sweet, but there are no velodromes and unfortunately no plans to ever build one in this area So if I have to pick a goal, it would be doing a couple 50 mile group rides a month without feeling abused afterwards.

  10. #35
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprince View Post
    No centuries, road races, or criteriums. Track would be sweet, but there are no velodromes and unfortunately no plans to ever build one in this area So if I have to pick a goal, it would be doing a couple 50 mile group rides a month without feeling abused afterwards.
    Well then, that's easy ... go ride 35 miles at a slower pace on your own this coming weekend. The following weekend, ride 50 miles at a slower pace on your own. The following weekend, ride 65 miles at a slower pace on your own. Then try the group ride again.

    Keep the pace manageable. Not too slow, you don't want to crawl along pointlessly ... keep it at a pace where you feel you've got a little bit in reserve.

    And of course, keep doing the faster stuff during the week.

  11. #36
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprince View Post
    That's part of what I'm trying to flush out. The Coggan chart seems to indicate there is a definite cutoff at the top two zones where there would be very little or no aerobic benefit. That point also seems to be an area where you run into many differing opinions. From my own anecdotal experience I'd have to say I'm not getting much aerobic benefit from staying at the anaerobic side of the zones and I can't judge anaerobic cycling benefits because it's something that tends to come naturally to me anyway with a minimum of work. The other question that I've never found a decent explanation for is the difference between, for example, 3 hours of steady work with no break, and 3 hours with several short breaks to eat and rest. In other words is there something magical about a slow and steady, no break ride that you can't get from covering the same distance in the same amount of time with breaks?

    I don't consistently have the time required for one 4-5 hour ride, plus other rides the remainder of the week. Also as much as I like to ride, 4-5 hours reaches a point where I just don't care to sit on a bike that long, unless I'm actually going somewhere. For the next three months it's getting too hot to ride fast anyway, so I'm going to test out doing a slow and steady 2-3 hour ride once a week every week for a few months and see what happens. Which may only prove what I know already without answering either question, that working on the weakest link is low hanging fruit when looking for improvement.
    Google "HIIT aerobic benefits" HIIT=high intensity interval training. I think the scholarly and other articles you will find there will answer your basic questions.

  12. #37
    Travelling hopefully chasm54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericm979 View Post
    It depends on the rider's goals- that little training volume would work for criterium or track racing.
    If the goals are centuries or long road races, then it's not enough.

    Did the OP state his goals and I missed them? Any specific training advice made without knowing the rider's goals are no better than picking random workouts from the internet.
    Making a training plan should start with deciding on the goals.
    Yes, I agree, eric, but he was pretty clear at the outset that his problem was lack of aerobic endurance. Most of the comments since then have been directed at that statement.
    There have been many days when I haven't felt like riding, but there has never been a day when I was sorry I rode.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    Google "HIIT aerobic benefits" HIIT=high intensity interval training. I think the scholarly and other articles you will find there will answer your basic questions.
    I had likely already gained everything I could from the intervals by doing basically the same rides and work patterns repeatedly for a long time. This past Sunday I did 50 steady state miles, concentrating on not going too fast. It felt like maybe 14 mph at the time but tuned out to be 16-17. Figure worst case, 3 hours only once a week is not enough to do any harm. So I'll stick with finding a brand new 3 hour ride every week for a month or two and see what happens.

  14. #39
    Junior Member Tomas Metcalfe's Avatar
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    You have never experienced lactic acid build up in your legs?? This doesn't sound right. Here's what I think is happening:

    What's happening is that you are training in at threshold (anaerobic threshold) when you're doing those 20 mph + rides... So it takes you about an hour or so and your fine.

    When you ease of and go longer, your not actually easing of by that, Your still burning a lot of carbohydrates at this intensity... enough maybe that in 1:40 h or so you'll bonk. I'd also hazard a guess that you're dieting? Training this is called lactic tolerance. It's actually a good way to improve aerobic fitness. More of this and you'll improve :-) Maybe divide the session into two intervals of 5 miles where you go 18-20mph, with the rest of the time slower (16-17).

    Going fast doesn't make you loose 'aerobic fitness'... quite the opposite.

    Train this at least 3x per week taking no more than 3 days away from the bike. Complete rest days are good. It comes down to selecting the right training zones. The 3h once a week is good... but do it longer than a month.

    The burning 'lactic acid' occurs above threshold.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomas Metcalfe View Post
    You have never experienced lactic acid build up in your legs?? This doesn't sound right. Here's what I think is happening:

    What's happening is that you are training in at threshold (anaerobic threshold) when you're doing those 20 mph + rides... So it takes you about an hour or so and your fine.

    When you ease of and go longer, your not actually easing of by that, Your still burning a lot of carbohydrates at this intensity... enough maybe that in 1:40 h or so you'll bonk. I'd also hazard a guess that you're dieting? Training this is called lactic tolerance. It's actually a good way to improve aerobic fitness. More of this and you'll improve :-) Maybe divide the session into two intervals of 5 miles where you go 18-20mph, with the rest of the time slower (16-17).

    Going fast doesn't make you loose 'aerobic fitness'... quite the opposite.

    Train this at least 3x per week taking no more than 3 days away from the bike. Complete rest days are good. It comes down to selecting the right training zones. The 3h once a week is good... but do it longer than a month.

    The burning 'lactic acid' occurs above threshold.
    No lactic acid build up from cycling. I'll run out of oxygen long before that happens. If I had 2 hearts and 4 lungs I'd be invincible The legs can go all day and most of the next.

    I typically ride 6 days a week.

    I'm not dieting. I have always eaten a lot (minimum 4k calories per day lately). I do have problems trying to eat solid food on rides, party due to the oxygen deprivation and the fact that in warmer weather, solid food just kind of sits on my stomach until after the ride.

    Are you saying that I may be going too hard on the longer rides and not hard enough on the short rides, and possibly should eat more just before a long ride?

  16. #41
    Junior Member Tomas Metcalfe's Avatar
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    It's 'running out of oxygen' (due to pushing harder than is sustainable) that causes lactic acid build up...

    It sound like you're going too hard in both long and short rides. Reduce the hard efforts to specific intervals >12' at the pace you normally ride the 20m rides and intervals <12' as fast you can without the pace dropping of.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machka View Post
    I'm a lot older than you think ... and I've been cycling for 40 years.


    What I'm saying is that if you want to take "training" seriously, get the tools to do so. Yeah sure, you can guestimate distances, speeds, etc. but if you really want to train, why not work with more concrete numbers?

    If you just want to ride, then don't worry about it.

    And incidentally, riding the same route all the time isn't a particularly effective training method. Mix it up!
    +1. i use to have a cateye cadance computer and that's it. when it finally crapped out after 8yrs.. i decided to get the garmin 810 with HRM/ cadance. now learning to train in zones to get healthier and stronger.

    good time Machka about not riding the same route. i've been using this climb by my work place daily, since from what i read... the suggestion to getting better at a climb is to keep riding it. so now, there's another route at work that i use with climb.. but only 230-240ft of gradual climb vs. the 519ft of steep climb ride i use. so now i just use the gradual climb for recovery and the steep climb for training.

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