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  1. #326
    Wheelsuck Fat Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machka View Post
    Oh good! I was quite surprised when you posted that.

    But a tip ... drop the 300 calorie drink in the morning, and you'll have the potential of losing approx. 1 lb every 2 weeks. I wish I had an expendable drink like that in my daily consumption.
    You're missing the point, Machka. No one is saying that we need to starve or drop the 300 calorie drink. It's her breakfast. There's nothing wrong with eating!

    Let's do a thought experiment. 65'ers wife has 2 drink options, both are 300 calories. One of them is her coffee with coconut oil/pastured butter/whole cream/whatever and the other is a large glass of orange/apple juice (~22 oz). While we're calorically neutral, we are very much not neutral in terms of the response her body will produce. The coffee will provide medium chain fats for fueling whatever she's doing and encourage her body to maintain the fat-burning mode that has begun by her overnight fast. The glass of juice is ~65 grams of sugar. It's essentially an oral glucose tolerance test. The overnight fast will be broken and her body will kick into sugar burning/storing mode. There will be a big blood sugar spike, an insulin response and then the resulting blood sugar drop. In 1.5-2 hours she'll be hungry and ready to eat again at which point, the mid-morning snack adds calories we'd rather not have. Without the big hormonal response, though, she may very well not be truly hungry until lunch.

    You're throwing stones at this approach, but you've never tried it. Those of us who have completely recognize that there are positives (and negatives) to it. It's a tool. It can be a very effective tool. It's not a tool that every person will work well with, but it's one that I think anyone interested in diets and nutrition should take an open-minded look at.
    Austin doesn't have hippies. They have slightly rebellious Methodists. - Racer Ex

  2. #327
    Wheelsuck Fat Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
    ... Not by the evidence that I have seen...

    The low carb guru's have built a very fancy argument that diabetes is caused by carb intake, but their evidence has not, so far, been convincing to me.
    Would you agree that diabetes (we're talking type 2, here) is defined by a chronic elevation of blood sugars and a resistance to insulin?
    Austin doesn't have hippies. They have slightly rebellious Methodists. - Racer Ex

  3. #328
    Senior Member GeorgeBMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Boy View Post
    Would you agree that diabetes (we're talking type 2, here) is defined by a chronic elevation of blood sugars and a resistance to insulin?
    Yes, but the difference is the cause of those things...

    Again, carbs are normal, insulin is normal. The body needs both and is well equipped to handle both. It is when it gets out of control (like from a 44 oz Coke) that they become "bad".

    I think the argument that diabetes "is caused by carbs" is both overly simplistic and ignores other factors -- such as obesity.
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  4. #329
    Senior Member GeorgeBMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Boy View Post
    You're missing the point, Machka. No one is saying that we need to starve or drop the 300 calorie drink. It's her breakfast. There's nothing wrong with eating!

    Let's do a thought experiment. 65'ers wife has 2 drink options, both are 300 calories. One of them is her coffee with coconut oil/pastured butter/whole cream/whatever and the other is a large glass of orange/apple juice (~22 oz). While we're calorically neutral, we are very much not neutral in terms of the response her body will produce. The coffee will provide medium chain fats for fueling whatever she's doing and encourage her body to maintain the fat-burning mode that has begun by her overnight fast. The glass of juice is ~65 grams of sugar. It's essentially an oral glucose tolerance test. The overnight fast will be broken and her body will kick into sugar burning/storing mode. There will be a big blood sugar spike, an insulin response and then the resulting blood sugar drop. In 1.5-2 hours she'll be hungry and ready to eat again at which point, the mid-morning snack adds calories we'd rather not have. Without the big hormonal response, though, she may very well not be truly hungry until lunch.

    You're throwing stones at this approach, but you've never tried it. Those of us who have completely recognize that there are positives (and negatives) to it. It's a tool. It can be a very effective tool. It's not a tool that every person will work well with, but it's one that I think anyone interested in diets and nutrition should take an open-minded look at.
    I would suggest that she avoid BOTH of those breakfasts... They are both toxic.
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  5. #330
    Wheelsuck Fat Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Boy View Post
    Would you agree that diabetes (we're talking type 2, here) is defined by a chronic elevation of blood sugars and a resistance to insulin?
    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
    Yes, but the difference is the cause of those things...

    Again, carbs are normal, insulin is normal. The body needs both and is well equipped to handle both. It is when it gets out of control (like from a 44 oz Coke) that they become "bad".

    I think the argument that diabetes "is caused by carbs" is both overly simplistic and ignores other factors -- such as obesity.
    The question was fairly straight forward. Would you be so kind as to answer it?
    Austin doesn't have hippies. They have slightly rebellious Methodists. - Racer Ex

  6. #331
    Wheelsuck Fat Boy's Avatar
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  7. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
    I would suggest that she avoid BOTH of those breakfasts... They are both toxic.
    Would you agree that some amount of fasting can produce positive adaptations?
    Austin doesn't have hippies. They have slightly rebellious Methodists. - Racer Ex

  8. #333
    Senior Member GeorgeBMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Boy View Post
    The question was fairly straight forward. Would you be so kind as to answer it?
    I did. I just didn't agree with where it was leading.
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  9. #334
    Senior Member GeorgeBMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Boy View Post
    Would you agree that some amount of fasting can produce positive adaptations?
    I have never thought about it. It would be reasonable to assume it would promote weight loss and one guy a couple thousand years ago said it produced some spiritual insight, but other than that ????
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  10. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
    I did. I just didn't agree with where it was leading.
    No, you didn't answer the question. It was a 'yes or no' question and your response was neither. You played the politician's game of answering a question that was never asked. There's a difference.

    Reluctance to answer a simple, logical question speaks volumes on it's own.

    Question withdrawn.
    Austin doesn't have hippies. They have slightly rebellious Methodists. - Racer Ex

  11. #336
    Senior Member GeorgeBMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Boy View Post
    No, you didn't answer the question. It was a 'yes or no' question and your response was neither. You played the politician's game of answering a question that was never asked. There's a difference.

    Reluctance to answer a simple, logical question speaks volumes on it's own.

    Question withdrawn.
    I think you need to re-read my answer ...
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  12. #337
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Boy View Post
    Would you agree that some amount of fasting can produce positive adaptations?
    I have a riding buddy who got into fasting one day/week while he was in India. He found it as detrimental to his riding when he got back here. Cycling his metabolism that way was a problem. I never heard of a serious rider who thought that was a good idea.

  13. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Boy View Post
    Would you agree that diabetes (we're talking type 2, here) is defined by a chronic elevation of blood sugars and a resistance to insulin?
    I don't think any MDs claim Type 1 or 2 diabetes is caused by carb intake.
    Type 2 -cause is usually being fat.

    If you JUST looked at glycemic index-which was developed to guide diabetics-you would assume a baked potato was "bad"
    same story with oatmeal.
    They are both "good food"-much better than the average crap people eat.
    Probably best to eat them in moderation-or eat cheese meat butter with the potato to slow absorption-or plan to exercise after-
    but glycemic index isn't everything.
    Potatoes-probably "BETTER FOOD" than whole wheat-depending on how you measure such things(vitamins minerals protein)
    Carbs are GOOD for you-if you are careful-especially eating them before exercise.

  14. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    I have a riding buddy who got into fasting one day/week while he was in India. He found it as detrimental to his riding when he got back here. Cycling his metabolism that way was a problem. I never heard of a serious rider who thought that was a good idea.
    First, you're taking this back to cycling performance, I was speaking about general health.
    Second, fasted training is not such an unusual idea. I read a thing were Jonathan Vaughters (serious enough, I'd say) mentioned it in some cycling rag. A study can be found here and there are more if you're interested. Essentially, it nudges your body towards fat burning and glucose sensitivity.

    In my experience, you have to be careful with it. I can either do long endurance level work or shorter intense (up to 1' intervals) work. If I try to do longer threshold+ work, I tend to fade early and not produce enough power to make it count. Done correctly, I think it can provide a nice addition to your work. Done incorrectly, I think it probably releases a bunch of cortisol and creates undo stress.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    I think I'm pushing this thread too confrontational. Let me leave it at this. There are varying approaches to diet. A diet higher in naturally occurring fats that what is generally recommended can be quite healthy. If anyone is interested, we can talk.

    Arguing my points with people who A. Don't want to hear it and B. Aren't liable to change their minds regardless of what I write is really not an advantage for any of us.
    Austin doesn't have hippies. They have slightly rebellious Methodists. - Racer Ex

  15. #340
    Senior Member GeorgeBMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Boy View Post
    First, you're taking this back to cycling performance, I was speaking about general health.
    Second, fasted training is not such an unusual idea. I read a thing were Jonathan Vaughters (serious enough, I'd say) mentioned it in some cycling rag. A study can be found here and there are more if you're interested. Essentially, it nudges your body towards fat burning and glucose sensitivity.

    In my experience, you have to be careful with it. I can either do long endurance level work or shorter intense (up to 1' intervals) work. If I try to do longer threshold+ work, I tend to fade early and not produce enough power to make it count. Done correctly, I think it can provide a nice addition to your work. Done incorrectly, I think it probably releases a bunch of cortisol and creates undo stress.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    I think I'm pushing this thread too confrontational. Let me leave it at this. There are varying approaches to diet. A diet higher in naturally occurring fats that what is generally recommended can be quite healthy. If anyone is interested, we can talk.

    Arguing my points with people who A. Don't want to hear it and B. Aren't liable to change their minds regardless of what I write is really not an advantage for any of us.
    I think just sharing what you believe -- and why -- is helpful and informational and succeeds in opening some minds (maybe just a little).

    I can honestly say that I have learned some valuable insights and information from you and others posting on this thread. I can't say that it has changed my mind (very much!) -- but I can honestly say that it has helped to open my mind to possibilities that I was not previously aware of...

    So, I hope you keep posting...
    --------------------------------------
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  16. #341
    Senior Member wolfchild's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    I have a riding buddy who got into fasting one day/week while he was in India. He found it as detrimental to his riding when he got back here. Cycling his metabolism that way was a problem. I never heard of a serious rider who thought that was a good idea.
    I practice undereating/intermittent fasting everyday (16-18 hours, this includes time spend sleeping at night ). My energy levels are sky high. I am not a competitive racer but I am extremely active physically including commuting on my bike everyday all year round. I have a daily feeding window which starts at around 2:30 and runs till 9:00. I can easily consume 2500 calories within those last 6-7 hours of the day. My only snacks during the undereating phase are either fresh fruit or a small amount of cottage cheese with few tablespoons of olive oil.

  17. #342
    Senior Member wolfchild's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machka View Post

    But a tip ... drop the 300 calorie drink in the morning, and you'll have the potential of losing approx. 1 lb every 2 weeks. I wish I had an expendable drink like that in my daily consumption.
    Sorry but you got this one wrong... Those 300 calories that 65'er is getting from his bulletproof coffee are either from butter or coconut oil.
    Those are healthy fats which can actually make a person loose weight by activating ketones and using fat as fuel. Those fats are an excellent long lasting source of energy.

  18. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
    Sorry but you got this one wrong... Those 300 calories that 65'er is getting from his bulletproof coffee are either from butter or coconut oil.
    Those are healthy fats which can actually make a person loose weight by activating ketones and using fat as fuel. Those fats are an excellent long lasting source of energy.
    I love my morning coffee-but I take it with 2% (or whole milk)milk and sugar and artificial sweetener.Protein and calcium Vit D Vit A probably some potassium etc.

    The butter-OK- anything is better with butter.
    Does coconut oil taste like coconut??

  19. #344
    Wheelsuck Fat Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoebeisis View Post
    Does coconut oil taste like coconut??
    Is this a rhetorical question? Largely, yes, but it's not a very strong flavor.
    Austin doesn't have hippies. They have slightly rebellious Methodists. - Racer Ex

  20. #345
    Wheelsuck Fat Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
    So, I hope you keep posting...
    I'm not stopping posting, just keeping some of what I write in check.
    Austin doesn't have hippies. They have slightly rebellious Methodists. - Racer Ex

  21. #346
    Wheelsuck Fat Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoebeisis View Post
    I love my morning coffee-but I take it with 2% (or whole milk)milk and sugar and artificial sweetener.Protein and calcium Vit D Vit A probably some potassium etc.
    Straight cream, no sugar, no sweetener would be a better choice, IMO.
    Austin doesn't have hippies. They have slightly rebellious Methodists. - Racer Ex

  22. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Boy View Post
    Straight cream, no sugar, no sweetener would be a better choice, IMO.
    Yes it might be "somewhat" healthier-but it wouldn't taste as good!!
    No protein-less calcium-so close call.
    Life is short!
    Last edited by phoebeisis; 12-13-13 at 05:30 PM.

  23. #348
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver View Post
    If a person is diabetic they should avoid carbs of every kind.
    You know that's not true. Diabetic can still eat veggies.

  24. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Boy View Post
    No, you didn't answer the question. It was a 'yes or no' question and your response was neither. You played the politician's game of answering a question that was never asked. There's a difference.

    Reluctance to answer a simple, logical question speaks volumes on it's own.

    Question withdrawn.
    He did answer the question.

    Your definition of diabetes is based on the symptoms. The cause of diabetes is a shut-down of the cells in the pancreas that create the insulin. This shutdown, evidently, is caused by the fat cells in the pancreas increasing. It has been shown (both recently and in the early 20th century) that putting patients on a "starvation" diet (ie, 500 calories a day) for a period of time will in fact cause the fat cells in the pancreas to recede and the insulin-producing cells to reactivate.

    But that starvation diet thing is the one to get past. People just can't bear that thought, so insulin injections are the easiest option. Just like statins are for cholesterol. And blood pressure meds for too much salt intake.

    I go back to my post about gluttony being the root of dietary evil...
    Dream. Dare. Do.

  25. #350
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Boy View Post
    You're missing the point, Machka. No one is saying that we need to starve
    Can you point to where I said that we all need to be on a starvation diet? You're the second person to assume that something I said means that.

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