phoebeisis

50 lbs 4 months-=.4lbs day=1400cal/d "deficit"
Pretty dramatic weight loss-if it was just fat.
Most folks would be absolutely STARVING with that sort of energy shortage.
Maybe the suggestion that the thyroid problem caused some fluid retention-makes sense-or maybe normal thyroid after abnormal -low-thyroid-her weight goes back to "her normal" quickly-50 lbs lotta weight loss from just "diet"


Probably mentioned my dad went on a low carb higher fat protein diet in the 1970's-it worked.
It was contrary to what current medical thought was-which was calories and energy counted-and high fat was "bad"
It was called the "steak and eggs diet" or the "drinking mans diet" (not sure the why of drinking man's diet.-maybe steak and hard liquor?)
ethanol is betwixt and between carbs and fats -guessing its metabolism is closer to fats than sugars

Probably works-seems safe
I do love carbs)bread oatmeal sugar ice cream cookies-so not for me

Wanderer

Yes, she has seen her doctor, and she has run a zillion tests.... It's not unusual to take quite some time to resolve those problems, both from her doctors statements, and my experience........ Hopefully, with a 30 day period, she will be back to semi normal, as my experience of never getting completely back, and the doctor's statements. For right now, they are managing the pain..... She's improving every day ------ it's just slow (much slower than the drug companies tell everyone).............

GeorgeBMac

That's good...

And, to make matters worse: the new AHA/ACC standards call for starting a person out on the highest dosages -- which have long been associated with increased adverse affects. (The FDA even has a warning out about Simvastatin 80mg -- which a LOT of people were taking).

Well, it sounds like she is getting good care...

My first experience was similar -- but not as strong as your wife's. I switched to another statin and that seemed to be OK. But, eventually the adverse affects sort of snuck up on me. Actually, I wouldn't have even have known something was wrong if I had not started exercising... Sitting in front of the TV, I do not feel any bad affects -- which is probably why they can get away with telling people that the side affects are "rare".

Best of luck.

Sixty Fiver

My wife has not been on any calorie restriction... she has just cut her carbs down to negligible levels and replaced those calories with calories from fat and she does not count a thing and has not changed her activity level.

Consider that before the weight loss really started she was not eating wheat or glutenous grains and you could not get her to eat anything with HFCS, she did not eat junk food, only had glucose syrup in her coffee, and was not over indulging in anything.

My wife's thyroid problem is that she does not have one, synthetic hormones have been covering that for 22 years and those levels have been exactly where they need to be to keep her between hyper and hypo thyroid.

My wife majored in biochemical and cellular biology and her aunt worked with Paul D. Boyer who won the Nobel prize for Chemistry in 1997... "for the elucidation of the enzymatic mechanism underlying the synthesis of adenosine triphosphate (ATP)" This expanded on Krebs' work on the citric acid cycle that he did in the 1950's for which he also received the Nobel.

My wife said that in her home it was un-acceptable to not know know and understand all of this work.

She just isn't drop dead gorgeous, she is also brilliant.

Sixty Fiver

This is a good read...

American Diabetes Association Embraces Low Carbohydrate Diet

phoebeisis

Like I said my dad-PhD chemist- successfully used that diet mid late 1970's-back then the explanations on "why it worked" was 1)small urine loss of calories-2)appetite suppression of ketogenic diet(survival value there maybe) and 3)loss of carb craving-
perhaps 4)the "boring aspect" of it is most important-in the 1970's that was a common explanation of "why it worked"

Doesn't make sense that any diet-especially one that you body would interpret as starvation- would INCREASE weight loss?? Maybe it only increases weight loss until a "certain point"-

Apes-nearest ancestors-mainly carb eaters? Wonder what the speculation is on what earliest "humans" ate? 2,000,000 years ago?
Of course no agriculture-so no grains to speak of-just simple sugars in fruits some starch in roots

The ADA did they actually "publish" the new guideline-low carb diet? The read sounding like it was in the future?

My wife-diabetic because of prednisone-is strictly a "eat carb-glucose spikes" diabetic-if she avoids carbs-her glucose never spikes.Unfortunately she absolutely CRAVES carbs in direct proportion to her prednisone dose.( extremely serious autoimmune vasculitis since 2005)-we are hoping Rituximab(monoclonal antibody given 5 weeks ago) will allow a dramatic reduction in prednisone-

Sixty Fiver

You seem to be confusing a keto adapative diet with a calorie restricted diet... we do not restrict calories and just swapped carbs for fats.There are no insulin spikes, what little carb cravings we had vanished, and we eat a wide range of tasty foods that is far from boring.

You have to read the article to the end, the writer only wishes that the ADA would revise their recommendations to reflect current knowledge. It is a fact that a lower carb diet is very effective in managing diabetes and they continue to push a higher carb, low fat diet to diabetics who are also much more likely to be overweight which I believe is a symptom of the disease and not the cause.

Prednisone is a nasty endocrine disruptor, I hope your wife can find an alternative to this.

GeorgeBMac

There are many experts and much evidence that would disagree with that...
... Plus much evidence that would argue that a high fat diet has other nasty affects on the human body...

Clearly you and some experts are convinced of its benefits. But realize that not all agree -- and they also have "facts" to support their argument.

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="class: standardText"]https://intelligencesquaredus.org/deb...ng-with-a-face
Dr. Barnard’s closing statement:
Let's say your teenage son or daughter says to you, “Mom and Dad, I’ve decided I’m going to eat my fruits and vegetables, but I’m not going to eat anything with a face—and don’t worry, I know where to get my protein. This isn’t that hard." If you were to then look at the numbers and realize that your child's likelihood of becoming obese, having a heart attack, or developing cancer or diabetes just plummeted, you would be thrilled. That is what we are voting for now.
If you were part of an insurance group where your premiums depended on everyone’s state of health, and if everyone in the group decided to stop eating meat, you’d be thrilled.
The world’s strongest man is Patrik Baboumian, who recently lifted 1,210 pounds on an entirely plant-based diet.
The world’s greatest long-distance runner is Scott Jurek. He runs 100, 125, even 150 miles without stopping, and he does it faster than any other human being—powered by a plant-based diet.
On Monday, at the World Memory Championship in England, where contestants can memorize a deck of cards in 30 seconds and perform other mind-blowing feats, the world champion was 25-year-old Jonas Von Essen of Sweden, who was powered by an entirely plant-based diet.
Arguably the world’s greatest brain, Albert Einstein, wrote: “It is my view that the vegetarian manner of living, by its purely physical effect on the human temperament, would most beneficially influence the lot of mankind.”Einstein continued: "So I am living without fats, without meat, without fish, and am feeling quite well this way. It always seems to me that man was not born to be a carnivore."
A generation ago, we tackled tobacco. And while everyone is free to smoke, we just know we are not going to do it. Today, the issue is food. For yourself, and especially for your children, let me ask you to vote for this resolution: Don’t eat anything with a face
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

phoebeisis

Yes we are hoping the monoclonal antibody will knock her immune system attacks back -fingers crossed.

I was assuming that any diet that induces weight loss is a "calorie shortage diet"- using/losing more than taking in.
Now it is possible some calories are urinated out-I will have to check-see if I can find any studies that show actual grams of ketones lost per day.

Possible some of these diets induce "inefficiency"- meaning more heat production-fewer stored calories- the eskimos seem to think their ancestral diet made them warmer than their current higher carb diets. I would bet they are exactly right.

Do you feel "warmer" on your high fat diet than you did on your higher carb diet?
Perhaps need more AC in summer-but tolerate a lower thermostat setting in winter??
Might be worth studying that-no doubt someone already has...
Lotta folks on high fat low carb diets now-they must have a forum somewhere where they discuss just that

No picking a fight-just curious on the "why of the weight loss" and the "where did the chemical energy go- if folks are losing weight on a diet that provides exactly as many calories as they "require"
The old explanations for the weight loss was -some went out in urine- but most of the weight loss was due to decreased caloric intake
-just calories in calories out
I suspect it is more than that-maybe some increase in inefficiency-heat production-tiny amounts in urine

PS- Hunted up some numbers. Folks on these diets for weight loss-most folks on the diets-test ketones in their urine
They aim to reach 3 milli-moles per liter- so 4 liters of urine 12 milli-moles per day 1/100 mole-figure molecular weight about 100- so 1 gram/day= 9 calories(actually less) per day-so obviously it isn't the ketones lost in urine

Sixty Fiver

There are vegetarians who practice low carb diets, Jonas Von Essen is one of them... he finds that a keto diet improves his mental acuity.

If my children decided to become vegetarians that would be fine, I also have lots of friends who are vegan and vegetarian who have gone lower carb.

Machka 

Keeping in mind, of course, that vegetables are carbs.

Rowan

This thread in Road sums up the situation nicely if you read the posts by BF's resident bariatric surgeon who deals with the issues of obesity every single working day:

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...yclists-so-fat

GeorgeBMac

I suspect that many of these low-carb diet discussions get side-tracked because of the good-carb / bad-carb thingy...
... I'm a vegan -- but you won't see me eating Wonder Bread or Coca-Cola or candy (at least not very often).

Sixty Fiver

Vegetables do contain carbs in varying amounts and think I pointed out that on a low carb "diet" that has less than 100 grams of carbs / day I can eat as many as 16 servings of vegetables although I do have balance that with other carbs I consume.

Low carb starts when you carbohydrate consumption drops below 100 grams / day as this is where you can test for trace ketosis, which also seems to be the best place to be if you need to lose weight.

Fats can be sourced from plants with the healthiest being olive oil and coconut oil... these provide 100 calories per tbsp.

The things that vegetarians and vegans cannot get from plant based foods are B12 vitamins which are found naturally in animal products and more specifically, in organ meats so supplementation is required.

The effects of B12 deficiencies take a long time to appear but it is a crucial nutrient... one of the first things my neurologist checked (back issues) was my B12 level as deficiency can cause neurological impairments and also increases the risk of heart attacks as the deficiency affects folate levels.

Machka 

It's almost like some think vegetables are in some distinct category. As though food is made up of protein, fat, carbs, vitamins and minerals ... and vegetables.

Sixty Fiver

If it was not for the birds I keep my house would be kept a lot cooler than it is now, in Portland (no birds) we kept the house at 50-55 degrees and don't use AC.

On that note my wife's body temperature and ability to stay warm has improved greatly.

There is a ton of information out there on low carb / high fat diets... prednisone really messed my wife up and she had to use this when she had surgery to her ear and after a hysterectomy and it really throws off your blood sugar and insulin response.

It should be noted that she started the low carb diet after she stopped taking prednisone and when her numbers were all normal save for slightly elevated blood pressure which is a side effect of another medication she needs to take to keep her ear clear and those numbers have dropped despite her increasing her salt intake on this low carb diet.

On ketones... once fats are converted into ketones those cannot be returned to the body so those pass through the urine.

Your wife might be a good candidate for a LCHF diet if she is having issues with carbs in her diet because of a chemically altered metabolism... she may be eating the right number of calories and quality foods but prednisone messes with endocrine functions and insulin response so the carbs she is eating are not being metabolized properly.

My wife knows a good number of people who have experienced thyroid cancer where the treatment was to remove the thyroid and then you spend the rest of your life on synthetic or animal sourced thyroid hormones... they do not replace a natural thyroid and endocrine problems are common where the insulin response is not what it should be and again, the carbs are the issue here.

Sixty Fiver

Those Swedes decided that, after reviewing 16,000 research papers, that a lower carb diet was preferential to a higher carb diet as there is no correlation between saturated fat intake and cholesterol levels with heart disease and that a lower carb diet can prevent metabolic syndrome, diabetes, and obesity.

A low carb diet was the prescribed treatment for type 2 diabetes before insulin was developed.

What nasty effects am I supposed to be experiencing ?

GeorgeBMac

Yes, and the AHA/ACC under the auspices of the NIH reviewed the research and announced that pretty much everybody over the age of 63 should be taking a statin. But not everybody agrees with their conclusions...

The Swedes might be right. The AHA might be right.
... Or they may both be wrong ...

Unfortunately, when the medical and research communities cannot agree with each other, we each have to look at the evidence and make our own decisions...

I've made mine. I wish you the best with yours.

Fat Boy

Of course, but there's a significant difference between the carb density of broccoli or asparagus and, say, potatoes or rice. Anyway, in a high fat diet things like cruciferous vegetable are often used as a butter delivery mechanism.

Bonus question. You eat a vegetable that has a lot of fiber (say broccoli). Fiber is a carb, but how does your body process it?

Ultimately, I think you can largely boil it down to food processing. The more a food is processed, the worse it is for you.

Sixty Fiver

My coffee is a butter delivery mechanism although it also helps emulsify the coconut oil.

phoebeisis

sixtyfiver-thanks- wife is stuck with large doses of prednisone-if and until rituximab works.

Sixty Fiver

Did I mention that my wife and I are eating 2000 - 2300 calories a day ?

elcruxio

Maybe lower carb not I doubt it's actually a "low carb" diet. Probably more of a "don't be stupid with carbs" diet.
The new Nordic Nutrition Recommendations recommends
a 45-60% of energy intake in carbs
a 25-40% of energy intake in fats
a 10-20% of energy intake in protein.
So you know, not so low carb. More of a sensible carb as is for the many the most sensible option, especially in the nordic countries.
A low carb diet might have been a treatment for type 2 diabetes back in the day (as it should be today for some) But it really depends on the diabetes on how functional the treatment is going to be. Some type 2's are different from others etc. But yeah, you abuse your carb priviledge and it should be taken away from you.


Potato doesn't have that much carbs. Only about 15grams per 100grams. That's pretty moderate. Sweet potato has 16 grams per 100 grams.
Rice does have a lot of carbs. But rice is also awesome so that's cool.

as a personal anecdote. I've been on a lose weight diet. I lose 2 pounds per week pretty easily. without feeling that hungry (just eat less, what's so hard about that?)
Problem is that I kinda forget to eat enough carbs so I feel like sh*t. Headaches, annoyance and crankiness, mood swings and lethargy. I guess the low carb isn't for everyone.
But yeah, many people should just cut some carbs. You only should eat as much as you need (athletes more, active training people more, sometimes a lot more).

Also as a side note. I kinda feel you guys on the whole statin thing. Where i'm at it's done right and I heard from my SO that in many places in the US it's done pretty badly.
Finland => Start with a minimum dose of statins and increase gradually until you get effects or side effects occur. Side effects are handled by cutting back the dose or taking another med.
US => Full dose, stay course, patient hates side effects and stops. Not how it should be done.
Now of course there are variations to this but she just was on a lecture which outlined the differences in statin use between the US and Winland. Surprisingly the doctor holding the presentation thought the US system was superior. Weird.

GeorgeBMac

That was an interesting and well thought out response. Thank you...

As for your side note... I am not accustomed to defending the American health care system -- for which I do not have a great deal of respect. However, in this case the treatment regimen you describe in the US has not, historically been common practice. Rather, that was the guidelines issued by the AHA/ACC committees -- which typically comprise 'the bible of care'. But, unfortunately, they failed at least part of accepted medical research which is to let findings pass through a "peer review process" before setting them in stone. They sort skipped that step and went directly from meta-data research to the guidelines you mentioned... At this point, their guidelines have not been well accepted into common clinical practice and, in fact, have received a fair amount of criticism...

But, while disagreeing with the specifics of your side note, I do very much agree with its overall point that we should use statins with caution and prudence in mind and not assume that they are a completely safe wonder drug with minimal side affects.

Sixty Fiver

The Swedish model is still quite a radical change and lower carb is as good as low carb for many people as it re-sets their system so that they enjoy a proper metabolic cycle.

From a physiological basis we do not need to eat sugar at all... our bodies can produce all the glycogen it needs and the carbs you get in vegetables tend to come with a lot of healthful micronutrients and essential vitamins.

As for mood swings, lethargy, crankiness... this is associated with higher carb diets while those who are on low carb diets don't experience those swings in blood sugar which are usually the cause for those things.

Although it is anecdotal, my wife says she feels much less anxious on a low carb diet and I have noticed how much calmer she is... she tends to stress out about things more than most.

Sugar is a nasty drug.

I will probably have to adjust my carb intake a little when the cycling season is in full swing... there are some upstarts who want to drag race me and the lower carb diet keeps me in pretty lean shape no matter what I am doing.