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Old 01-18-14, 04:13 PM   #426
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The Swedish model is still quite a radical change and lower carb is as good as low carb for many people as it re-sets their system so that they enjoy a proper metabolic cycle.

From a physiological basis we do not need to eat sugar at all... our bodies can produce all the glycogen it needs and the carbs you get in vegetables tend to come with a lot of healthful micronutrients and essential vitamins.

As for mood swings, lethargy, crankiness... this is associated with higher carb diets while those who are on low carb diets don't experience those swings in blood sugar which are usually the cause for those things.

Although it is anecdotal, my wife says she feels much less anxious on a low carb diet and I have noticed how much calmer she is... she tends to stress out about things more than most.

Sugar is a nasty drug.

I will probably have to adjust my carb intake a little when the cycling season is in full swing... there are some upstarts who want to drag race me and the lower carb diet keeps me in pretty lean shape no matter what I am doing.

Likewise the actual need for fat is extremely small. But going completely without would be quite a challenge. The body can transform other nutrients to fat.
But it's convenient to eat fat because it has many benefcial properties (especially good oils like olive and **** seed)

It's convenient to eat carbs. Eaten carbs can be directly utilized by the body without impure transformation processes. Carbs are the purest form of energy. What one does with said energy of course is a more complicated issue but as I have said earlier, a sedentary person does not need much. The brain uses ~100 grams of glucose per day and the body uses some more for essential processes. Burning fat can give adequate fuel for the brain but in ketosis the brain does no use glucose as fuel. Whether this is a good or a bad thing is still a mystery to me since I can't find anything good from pubmed at this time. At the moment I would say it's irrelevant.
However I do know that getting to ketosis can be pretty harsh as the body needs time to adapt (weeks at times). The adaptation period may contain foggy brain, aggression, mood swings, headaches etc. Aka. not a very nice few weeks.

Now the body can of course survive with just fat and protein (with the required micronutrients) but for example sustained maximal power output at least according to current knowledge is impossible without large stores of glucose. The body may very well store glucose even in a state of ketosis but some needs to be ingested especially during long intense workouts or races. Many of us do not race, but it would be beneficial to almost all here to do hard sustained efforts once in a while.

In the end the possible adverse effects of a ketogenic diet are still unkown. I would not advocate it for longer durations without some pretty solid studies with human test subjects from various areas. It might be that in a 100 years the ketogenic diet is the norm and carbs are a thing of the past. Or it might be one of the mildly unhealthy fad diets. Thing is, you never know before some solid research comes out. The studies I can find are mostly of short term effects (which are encouraging) but there is a lot of BS in the mix. Also many studies are with rats. Human testing needs to be done for certainty.

Also the keto diet need to be very well tailored to reduce the possible risks (meat induced bowel cancer for example) with a good balance of foodstuffs and cooking methods (frying is worse than boiling)

So all in all, the keto diet seems to be a hassle. Carbs are extremely convenient as a pure form of energy (for many too much so it seems). And of course I can sadly never try it. I'm a type 1 diabetic you see and that kinda takes away the possibility.

And that brings me to my last point. My headaches and other problems were not due to blood sugar swings caused by carbs. I am a type 1 but I DO NOT get blood glucose swings. I am very good at this. I had perfect BG levels and still felt like dying. So it was the carb deficiency, not BG which caused the condition. Not enough fuel for the brain I would suspect (it takes time to adapt as I mentioned above). I need mah carbs brah!
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Old 01-18-14, 04:21 PM   #427
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Bonus question. You eat a vegetable that has a lot of fiber (say broccoli). Fiber is a carb, but how does your body process it?
Let me guess..Plant fibre is not digestable to humans. Any fibre you eat will just pass through your body and you'll just **** it out. Humans don't have enzymes in their gut to digest fibre and get any nutrition from it.
Animals are different. A diet of a gorilla is more then 50% fibre, such as twigs, leaves grasses, sedges. The digestive system of a gorilla ferments the fibre and converts it to nutrients and fatty acids for energy...Still fiber from veggies is healthy as it keeps your guts healthy and helps to get rid of the waste..Am I right or wrong ??
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Old 01-18-14, 04:40 PM   #428
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Likewise the actual need for fat is extremely small.
I think the need for fat is much greater then the need for carbs or protein. Fat has always been the most highly prized nutrient amongst hunters/gatherers. Fat is calorie dense and the best source of long lasting energy...My own experience: if I eat a bowl of gruel made from grains, I start feeling hungry and bonk very fast, but when I eat food that has a lot of fat , it will give me energy and keep me going for many hours without bonking...Even predatory animals such as wolves or wild cats will eat the most fatty parts and organs of an animal and leave the lean meat to scavengers...I think looking back in history and looking to nature can teach us more about nutrition then all modern food sciencists, nutritionists and doctors.
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Old 01-18-14, 04:58 PM   #429
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I think the need for fat is much greater then the need for carbs or protein. Fat has always been the most highly prized nutrient amongst hunters/gatherers. Fat is calorie dense and the best source of long lasting energy...My own experience: if I eat a bowl of gruel made from grains, I start feeling hungry and bonk very fast, but when I eat food that has a lot of fat , it will give me energy and keep me going for many hours without bonking...Even predatory animals such as wolves or wild cats will eat the most fatty parts and organs of an animal and leave the lean meat to scavengers...I think looking back in history and looking to nature can teach us more about nutrition then all modern food sciencists, nutritionists and doctors.
Well you got a few things wrong there.
1) comparing carnivores and humans (opportunistic omnivore) is just silly since the metabolic differences are simply too great.
2) protein is as important or more important than fat. You don't get the protein, you gon die brah.
3) your last comment about the nature etc. Is just... I don't even... *sigh* Yeah! You're right! Let's just leave all the scientists behind with them fancy biopsy molecule exposure stuff and evolutionary theories and large scale population nutritional studies and peer reviewed articles and just see what the wolves do eat and do not eat. But just be on the safe side I think we should also see what llamas eat. Pretty sure llamas are critical for human nutrition.
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Old 01-18-14, 05:05 PM   #430
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Likewise the actual need for fat is extremely small. But going completely without would be quite a challenge. The body can transform other nutrients to fat.
But it's convenient to eat fat because it has many benefcial properties (especially good oils like olive and **** seed)

It's convenient to eat carbs. Eaten carbs can be directly utilized by the body without impure transformation processes. Carbs are the purest form of energy. What one does with said energy of course is a more complicated issue but as I have said earlier, a sedentary person does not need much. The brain uses ~100 grams of glucose per day and the body uses some more for essential processes. Burning fat can give adequate fuel for the brain but in ketosis the brain does no use glucose as fuel. Whether this is a good or a bad thing is still a mystery to me since I can't find anything good from pubmed at this time. At the moment I would say it's irrelevant.
However I do know that getting to ketosis can be pretty harsh as the body needs time to adapt (weeks at times). The adaptation period may contain foggy brain, aggression, mood swings, headaches etc. Aka. not a very nice few weeks.

Now the body can of course survive with just fat and protein (with the required micronutrients) but for example sustained maximal power output at least according to current knowledge is impossible without large stores of glucose. The body may very well store glucose even in a state of ketosis but some needs to be ingested especially during long intense workouts or races. Many of us do not race, but it would be beneficial to almost all here to do hard sustained efforts once in a while.

In the end the possible adverse effects of a ketogenic diet are still unkown. I would not advocate it for longer durations without some pretty solid studies with human test subjects from various areas. It might be that in a 100 years the ketogenic diet is the norm and carbs are a thing of the past. Or it might be one of the mildly unhealthy fad diets. Thing is, you never know before some solid research comes out. The studies I can find are mostly of short term effects (which are encouraging) but there is a lot of BS in the mix. Also many studies are with rats. Human testing needs to be done for certainty.

Also the keto diet need to be very well tailored to reduce the possible risks (meat induced bowel cancer for example) with a good balance of foodstuffs and cooking methods (frying is worse than boiling)

So all in all, the keto diet seems to be a hassle. Carbs are extremely convenient as a pure form of energy (for many too much so it seems). And of course I can sadly never try it. I'm a type 1 diabetic you see and that kinda takes away the possibility.

And that brings me to my last point. My headaches and other problems were not due to blood sugar swings caused by carbs. I am a type 1 but I DO NOT get blood glucose swings. I am very good at this. I had perfect BG levels and still felt like dying. So it was the carb deficiency, not BG which caused the condition. Not enough fuel for the brain I would suspect (it takes time to adapt as I mentioned above). I need mah carbs brah!
There are people who have been thriving on a keto diet for decades... it is a known treatment for seizure disorders.

If you eat a good amount of carbs you don't need to eat much fat but from a position of nutrient density, fats are the best.

A normal human being can produce all the glucose they need through glycogenesis (protein converts to glucose) and fat can supply the primary source of energy but those foods that contain carbs contain fibre and nutrients the body also needs.

Glucose converts to energy very quickly... fructose takes a different pathway and if the energy needs are being met the excess metabolizes into fat and this appears to be the source of all our health issues as fructose consumption has increased greatly over the past 40 years.

Eating a low carb diet for us isn't a hassle... as we had given up wheat and most grains and already limited our sugars to a few natural sources adaptation was not that hard.

There are a good number of people who are vegetarian and vegan who eat a high fat / low carb diet... it does not require meat but does require B12 supplements as this is only found in animal products which makes a pretty strong case for our evolutionary path as being opportunistic carnivores. They believe that neanderthal were primarily carnivorous and most of us share some of that DNA.
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Old 01-18-14, 05:10 PM   #431
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Well you got a few things wrong there.
1) comparing carnivores and humans (opportunistic omnivore) is just silly since the metabolic differences are simply too great.
2) protein is as important or more important than fat. You don't get the protein, you gon die brah.
3) your last comment about the nature etc. Is just... I don't even... *sigh* Yeah! You're right! Let's just leave all the scientists behind with them fancy biopsy molecule exposure stuff and evolutionary theories and large scale population nutritional studies and peer reviewed articles and just see what the wolves do eat and do not eat. But just be on the safe side I think we should also see what llamas eat. Pretty sure llamas are critical for human nutrition.
Too much protein causes a wealth of health issues.

In the absence of steady supplies of carbohydrates we can convert this to glycogen but long term high protein diets cause gout and kidney issues.

We do not need that much daily protein compared to carbs or fats.

The science is pretty simple... we can run on fats or carbs and thrive but do not do well when we try to run on high amounts of both and the addition of processed foods and extra bad sugars messes up the whole system.
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Old 01-18-14, 05:16 PM   #432
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Too much protein causes a wealth of health issues.

In the absence of steady supplies of carbohydrates we can convert this to glycogen but long term high protein diets cause gout and kidney issues.

We do not need that much daily protein compared to carbs or fats.

The science is pretty simple... we can run on fats or carbs and thrive but do not do well when we try to run on high amounts of both and the addition of processed foods and extra bad sugars messes up the whole system.
True. Too much protein is bad. But it is also absolutely essential and cannot be disregarded. The body can function with carbs and protein or fat and protein but not with fat and carbs (as both are energy and not building blocks)
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Old 01-18-14, 05:57 PM   #433
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The body can function with carbs and protein
How long can a body function on high protein diet with no fat ??..Not very long. Eventually the person will end up with protein poisoning. ( ever heard of rabbit starvation ). Protein gets to become toxic at about 240 grams that's 960 calories of protein. Fat is different, you can eat 1500 calories in fat and there will be no toxic side-effects.. Carbs also become unhealthy when eaten in excessive amounts, unless the person is extremely active. Fat is the only macronutrient that can safely fill the void and satisfy the daily caloric intake. Fat produces more satiety then carbs and protein alone.
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Old 01-18-14, 06:01 PM   #434
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How long can a body function on high protein diet with no fat ??..Not very long. Eventually the person will end up with protein poisoning. ( ever heard of rabbit starvation ). Protein gets to become toxic at about 240 grams that's 960 calories of protein. Fat is different, you can eat 1500 calories in fat and there will be no toxic side-effects.. Carbs also become unhealthy when eaten in excessive amounts, unless the person is extremely active. Fat is the only macronutrient that can safely fill the void and satisfy the daily caloric intake. Fat produces more satiety then carbs and protein alone.
irrelevant. Protein is essential. Without it you die no matter what else you eat. Fat and carbs are energy. Protein is a building block (and occasional energy)
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Old 01-18-14, 06:27 PM   #435
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irrelevant. Protein is essential. Without it you die no matter what else you eat. Fat and carbs are energy. Protein is a building block (and occasional energy)
Protein is essential... at my height, weight, and level of physical activity I aim for 60 grams a day.

Carbs stay under 100 grams per day and those come from green vegetable and nuts.

The main caloric energy comes from fats which include meats, fish, coconut oil, butter, nuts, full fat dairy, cheese, and some saturated animal fats like lard (better for you than butter) and even bacon drippings.

As far as macronutrients go, the liver has a massive capacity to store glycogen (from glucose) and we know how much body fat a person can carry. If the glycogen needs are being met fructose will metabolize into fat.
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Old 01-18-14, 06:44 PM   #436
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irrelevant. Protein is essential. Without it you die no matter what else you eat. Fat and carbs are energy. Protein is a building block (and occasional energy)
Yes I know that protein is essential, yes I know that it's a building block. But fat is also essential, without fat the human body will get sick and die, no matter how much protein you eat. Fat is more then just a fuel for energy, it's also a building block of every cell in the body.
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Old 01-18-14, 08:18 PM   #437
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There are a good number of people who are vegetarian and vegan who eat a high fat / low carb diet... it does not require meat but does require B12 supplements as this is only found in animal products which makes a pretty strong case for our evolutionary path as being opportunistic carnivores. They believe that neanderthal were primarily carnivorous and most of us share some of that DNA.
B12 is needed in tiny quantities and an omnivore would get more than enough. No need to be a carnivore.
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Old 01-18-14, 09:00 PM   #438
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B12 is needed in tiny quantities and an omnivore would get more than enough. No need to be a carnivore.
The point is that a plant based diet will not provide this essential nutrient.
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Old 01-18-14, 10:46 PM   #439
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The point is that a plant based diet will not provide this essential nutrient.
Yes, it used to be in the water-- till we purified it out..

But the solution for vegans is cheap and easy. Take a supplement or multi-vitamin. And, while you're at it, take some vitamin D3 and calcium too.
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Old 01-18-14, 11:32 PM   #440
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Yes, it used to be in the water-- till we purified it out..

But the solution for vegans is cheap and easy. Take a supplement or multi-vitamin. And, while you're at it, take some vitamin D3 and calcium too.
You missed the point and no... vitamin B12 does not come in water.

B12 was only identified 50 years ago and in the years before this doctors and researchers had discovered that pernicious anemia, which is caused by a B12 deficiency, could be treated by having the patients consume liver, which we now know is very high in B12.

I am not suggesting that you eat liver and you should be thankful for the supplements that make a vegan lifestyle possible.

I had fresh liver for dinner... for the omnivores it is a food that has disappeared from many diets when it once was a staple and it is to their detriment that many do not understand how healthful it is.
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Old 01-19-14, 01:08 AM   #441
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You missed the point and no... vitamin B12 does not come in water.

B12 was only identified 50 years ago and in the years before this doctors and researchers had discovered that pernicious anemia, which is caused by a B12 deficiency, could be treated by having the patients consume liver, which we now know is very high in B12.

I am not suggesting that you eat liver and you should be thankful for the supplements that make a vegan lifestyle possible.

I had fresh liver for dinner... for the omnivores it is a food that has disappeared from many diets when it once was a staple and it is to their detriment that many do not understand how healthful it is.
I didn't say it does, I said it doesn't -- because we chlorinate it and purify it out of natural spring water...
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Old 01-19-14, 10:57 AM   #442
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You missed the point and no... vitamin B12 does not come in water.

B12 was only identified 50 years ago and in the years before this doctors and researchers had discovered that pernicious anemia, which is caused by a B12 deficiency, could be treated by having the patients consume liver, which we now know is very high in B12.

I am not suggesting that you eat liver and you should be thankful for the supplements that make a vegan lifestyle possible.

I had fresh liver for dinner... for the omnivores it is a food that has disappeared from many diets when it once was a staple and it is to their detriment that many do not understand how healthful it is.
... And, just to clarify: B12 is present in many animals -- but it is not produced by those animals. B12 is produced by bacteria that can exist in many places -- such as in the soil and water as well as in animals... The animal is essentially just passing it along.

A similar story is true of the omega-3's that are the current rage. We are told that they come from fatty fish. Actually, they don't. Again the 'fatty fish' are just passing them along from the algae they have eaten.
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Old 01-19-14, 11:39 AM   #443
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... And, just to clarify: B12 is present in many animals -- but it is not produced by those animals. B12 is produced by bacteria that can exist in many places -- such as in the soil and water as well as in animals... The animal is essentially just passing it along.

A similar story is true of the omega-3's that are the current rage. We are told that they come from fatty fish. Actually, they don't. Again the 'fatty fish' are just passing them along from the algae they have eaten.
The point is, that the only way to get vitamin B12 is from animal products... For people who are vegetarian , vitamin B12 deficiency can take many years to develop, but it still happens. It's impossible for humans to live in this world without eating another "life" and yes bacteria is" life" plants are also " living things" and are trying to survive, protect themselves and reproduce just like any other living thing. Vegeterians are no more ethical then meat eaters.
I have nothing against vegeterians, I just believe that vegetarian lifestyle would be impossible without modern supplements and food production technology..and even with supplements many vegeterians still end up with nutritional defeciencies.

As for omega 3's, it's the same thing. Meat and fish are the best sources...There are few plants which have small amounts of omega 3's but all those omega 3's in plants are different and can not be utilized by human body like the ones from fish and meat.

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Old 01-19-14, 12:24 PM   #444
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The point is, that the only way to get vitamin B12 is from animal products... For people who are vegetarian , vitamin B12 deficiency can take many years to develop, but it still happens. It's impossible for humans to live in this world without eating another "life" and yes bacteria is" life" plants are also " living things" and are trying to survive, protect themselves and reproduce just like any other living thing. Vegeterians are no more ethical then meat eaters.
I have nothing against vegeterians, I just believe that vegetarian lifestyle would be impossible without modern supplements and food production technology..and even with supplements many vegeterians still end up with nutritional defeciencies.

As for omega 3's, it's the same thing. Meat and fish are the best sources...There are few plants which have small amounts of omega 3's but all those omega 3's in plants are different and can not be utilized by human body like the ones from fish and meat.
"Vegeterians are no more ethical then meat eaters."
... that would be a hard claim to defend. Animals, like us, have nervous systems and brains that signal pain and suffering while we are mistreating them and killing them. Also, it requires vast amounts of plant food to raise an animal -- only to then turn around and kill it. That plant food and the land used to grow it could have been better used to raise food for humans. Also, animal raising contributes more to global warming that even cars...

"the only way to get vitamin B12 is from animal products"
Not true. The B12 that I take is produced by the same kind of bacteria that yours is...

"As for omega 3's, it's the same thing. Meat and fish are the best sources"
That' highly debatable as well. The omega-3's are not produced by those fish. They are produced by the plants that those fish eat. Why use a middle-man? Why go through all the trouble of hunting and killing fish -- as well as adding toxins like mercury into the mix. Why not just go right to the same source -- the pure source -- where the fish got them from: plants?
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Old 01-19-14, 12:56 PM   #445
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"Vegeterians are no more ethical then meat eaters."
... that would be a hard claim to defend. Animals, like us, have nervous systems and brains that signal pain and suffering while we are mistreating them and killing them. Also, it requires vast amounts of plant food to raise an animal -- only to then turn around and kill it. That plant food and the land used to grow it could have been better used to raise food for humans. Also, animal raising contributes more to global warming that even cars...

"the only way to get vitamin B12 is from animal products"
Not true. The B12 that I take is produced by the same kind of bacteria that yours is...

"As for omega 3's, it's the same thing. Meat and fish are the best sources"
That' highly debatable as well. The omega-3's are not produced by those fish. They are produced by the plants that those fish eat. Why use a middle-man? Why go through all the trouble of hunting and killing fish -- as well as adding toxins like mercury into the mix. Why not just go right to the same source -- the pure source -- where the fish got them from: plants?
You can get B12 from modern supplements or animal products... you aren't going to get it from drinking pure spring water. (Some vegan must have gotten high and came up with that idea).

There are many good plant sources of Omega 3's; flaxseed and it's oil are among the very best of all sources although absorption levels vary between men and women.
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Old 01-19-14, 02:04 PM   #446
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You can get B12 from modern supplements or animal products... you aren't going to get it from drinking pure spring water. (Some vegan must have gotten high and came up with that idea).

There are many good plant sources of Omega 3's; flaxseed and it's oil are among the very best of all sources although absorption levels vary between men and women.
I would have to agree with that statement. But I was not referring to 'pure' spring water. Rather the stuff you scoop up with your hands from the stream while out in the woods.

I agree that that is a very debatable claim. But there is logic to it. The B12 is produced by bacteria that live in the soil. And, if it's in the soil (which apparently, in natural environments, it is), then it will also be in the water...
... But, no, I would not stake my nervous system on that. I take a supplement.
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Old 01-19-14, 02:17 PM   #447
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Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver View Post
Protein is essential... at my height, weight, and level of physical activity I aim for 60 grams a day.

Carbs stay under 100 grams per day and those come from green vegetable and nuts.

The main caloric energy comes from fats which include meats, fish, coconut oil, butter, nuts, full fat dairy, cheese, and some saturated animal fats like lard (better for you than butter) and even bacon drippings.

As far as macronutrients go, the liver has a massive capacity to store glycogen (from glucose) and we know how much body fat a person can carry. If the glycogen needs are being met fructose will metabolize into fat.
Sixty Fiver-from your diet-obvious you know butter fats have been rehabilitated-
I'm not so certain lard is demonstrably "better" than butter fats.
Fat vs Fat-Probably a wash-but butter fat usually comes with some calcium some protein usually VIT D and A- and various ions trace minerals
I wouldn't trade lard for butter(besides it tastes better)

Slight aside
The old kidney/liver disease diet-using HIGH biological value(but readily available) proteins-eggs I think were commonly used-
provided just 20-25 grams per day- 1/3 gram per KG lean body weight
Guessing if you were careful-and in good health-maybe you can stay healthy on just 20-30 grams/d

With readily available dialysis etc-dietary control,severely restricting protein-not as important


B-12 in drinking water?
There MIGHT be minuscule amounts of B12 in a typical "dirty" stream-or pond.Decaying organisms-animals.
Never seen any numbers on B-12 in "dirty ponds"?
Kinda doubt any would be in a deep well-?
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Old 01-19-14, 02:43 PM   #448
robabeatle 
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Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver View Post
Too much protein causes a wealth of health issues.

In the absence of steady supplies of carbohydrates we can convert this to glycogen but long term high protein diets cause gout and kidney issues.

We do not need that much daily protein compared to carbs or fats.

The science is pretty simple... we can run on fats or carbs and thrive but do not do well when we try to run on high amounts of both and the addition of processed foods and extra bad sugars messes up the whole system.

Link to peer reviewed article please? I understood that lots of protein has been shown to be bad if there are already kidney issues.
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Old 01-19-14, 06:36 PM   #449
Sixty Fiver
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I would have to agree with that statement. But I was not referring to 'pure' spring water. Rather the stuff you scoop up with your hands from the stream while out in the woods.

I agree that that is a very debatable claim. But there is logic to it. The B12 is produced by bacteria that live in the soil. And, if it's in the soil (which apparently, in natural environments, it is), then it will also be in the water...
... But, no, I would not stake my nervous system on that. I take a supplement.
You would never get enough B12 from drinking water or from eating dirt... you could never consume enough.

A grazing animal like a cow on the other hand... it spends it's life eating and accumulates and stores B12 in it's liver just as we do.

The only other way is to synthesize B12 and then add that to foods as a supplement or fortifier.

My wife was a midwife in her early 20's and much of her medical knowledge and education in biochemistry and cellular biology came from this... she saw a lot of women who had B12 deficiencies (pregnancy creates a higher demand) and observed that even without pregnancy, those with B12 deficiencies were much more unstable mentally and much more prone to depression.

Most often this was with women who were vegetarians and vegans who were not getting enough of this in their diet.
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Old 01-19-14, 07:24 PM   #450
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I don't eat animal products other than fish, but I get more than enough from seafood and nutritional yeast. There are many seafoods that provide more B12 than beef, and clams provide more than liver according to this source: http://www.healthaliciousness.com/ar...itamin-B12.php

In any case the whole B12 argument is beside the point, as long as you get it in some form or other. The unhealthful elements that exist in any given food are more a concern to me than necessary but replaceable elements that may be missing. No single food needs to provide everything, but I want to avoid toxins if possible. Fish (or anything else) is no exception...one needs to be discriminating. IMHO.
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