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  1. #51
    Don from Austin Texas
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    Quote Originally Posted by eja_ bottecchia View Post
    I do not wish to start a side argument here. I have come to trust and rely upon the advice of my health care providers. I have known my asthma doctor for nearly 20 years, I trust his advice and I don't ever feel the need to second guess him. He is also an avid bike and motorcycle rider. In spite of his generous income he does his own wrenching.

    My diabetes doctor is a renown expert on the subject of diabetes. She has written books on the subject. She has treated Olympic athletes as well as bike racers who are diabetic. She is also a bike rider. I trust her advice and, as with my asthma doc, I don't feel the need to second guess her.

    I learned a long time ago that one of the keys to a happy, healthy life is to surround yourself with people whose counsel you trust and follow, whether it is financial, spiritual or medical advice. I am the CEO of my own life and these individuals are my trusted advisors.

    You sound fortunate to have excellent doctors. Or perhaps I should say you deserve credit for having selected them.

    Don in Austin

  2. #52
    Has opinion, will express
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    Quote Originally Posted by robabeatle View Post
    Link to peer reviewed research?
    Yeah, this is rather interesting. When Australia was first settled (and I suppose this happened in America, too), the houses were built with doorways just like back in England -- at a height that a six-footer couldn't get through without stooping a lot.

    We get to watch a lot of shows done by British TV about homes in the country, and a lot of them have centuries of history behind them. Invariably, the ones built in the 15th, 16th and 17th centuries have low doorways. Look at how the ships of the day were designed -- they are almost impossible for anyone over 5'5" to get around inside.

    I'd say the average height appears to have increased substantially since that period.

    As to the less healthy, I think the longevity of the human also has increased substantially. This is quoted from a recent article about a Swedish researcher debunking modern urban myths:

    Life expectancy

    Average life expectancy in the world is currently 70 years. This is up from the average life expectancy of 60 years in the 1960s. But the current rate is much better news because it applies to the majority of the world's population. The 1960s figure was skewed because there was high life expectancy in wealthy nations and short life expectancy in poor nations.
    Dream. Dare. Do.

  3. #53
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    I'm glad you've had the good fortune to be able to find such medical professionals. Can't say I've had the same luck. It's hard to find anyone interested in discussing the patient's overall health and few seem willing to provide much depth of information on any concern. I'm not condemning the entire profession, but from what I've seen your average patient isn't getting the sort of comprehensive care that the literature would tell us should result in less illness and lower long term costs.

  4. #54
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoebeisis View Post
    When humans developed sophisticated agriculture-which allowed cities and empires-they became shorter-smaller-less healthy.

    I Notice-you said despite having a belly stuffed with grain "I'll be about to pass out-my stomach can't keep up with energy expenditure"-
    Some folks might take that as a hint that there diet wasn't quite "right"

    In respect to our friends on the far side of the Pacific-
    You have noticed- Vietnamese immigrants-their kids here in the USA- much much taller bigger than their grandparents-wonder why?? Animal protein and fat(and vitamins minerals that come with it)-less grain-
    Same story in Japan-current young adults are GIANTS next to their grandparents-Animal protein-fat-less rice.
    Our Pacific Friends-perfect example-thanks!
    Link for your first statement?

    Funny again. My diet works exceptionally well, and maltodextrin is made from corn, not wheat. Your palmares? Since you bring up the Vietnamese, I realize I should have said "They used to do quite well on rice and wheat:"
    http://www.thanhniennews.com/index/p...n-vietnam.aspx
    Le Bach Mai, deputy director of the institute, said the condition is worse in urban areas than rural, as people in cities usually dine out, consuming more fat and high-protein dishes than vegetables.
    Our industrial diet has gotten to them also. Now it not just Americans on statins, its 1/4 of Asia, too? Seems to me, and to medical professionals, that the idea that we should all eat a lot more meat and fat is completely backwards.

    My fat metabolism is exceptionally well-trained, however there is a maximum of about 300 calories/hour that can be metabolized using fat as an energy source. 200 is more usual. So if I'm working at even a moderate 500 calorie/hour rate, the rest of it has to come from somewhere. It's just simple math. The only thing that matters is how fast you can move the calories across the stomach wall. Fat is the slowest thing there is, being digested by the intestines rather than the stomach. When exercising, the higher the carbohydrate GI and the lower the osmolality of the carbohydrate, the better. This is well known and has been heavily studied. If you want to question it, please provide peer reviewed studies.

    BTW, my BP, BMI, and cholesterol levels are all quite good.

  5. #55
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Boy View Post
    I'm really not sure what you're getting at with most of your comments as they seem more P&R related, but I can't think that you want to hold Mexico up as a beacon of health. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57592714/
    Anyone can view my comment history. As anyone can see, I do not make P&R comments nor do I even visit that forum.

    Is that really the link you want? Because it says that the industrial food machine is now taking over Mexico, with its high fat, high protein diet. McDonalds, anyone? I haven't been down there in almost 40 years, but I remember a country of healthy, thin people, who ate mostly beans and corn, with maybe a tiny bit of ground beef. Statins? I was making an epidemiological argument, not a political one. I would have thought that was obvious.

  6. #56
    Senior Member eja_ bottecchia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    I hope you are getting the salary commensurate with your position!!
    Indeed I am, especially since I am also the CFO.
    My current stable:

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  7. #57
    Senior Member eja_ bottecchia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don in Austin View Post
    You sound fortunate to have excellent doctors. Or perhaps I should say you deserve credit for having selected them.

    Don in Austin
    Don, it was a combination of both good fortune and research. Also, living in a part of the country with major university hospitals does not hurt.

    I am certain that there parts of the country where getting good medical professionals may not be as easy.
    My current stable:

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  8. #58
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    Anyone can view my comment history. As anyone can see, I do not make P&R comments nor do I even visit that forum.

    Is that really the link you want? Because it says that the industrial food machine is now taking over Mexico, with its high fat, high protein diet. McDonalds, anyone? I haven't been down there in almost 40 years, but I remember a country of healthy, thin people, who ate mostly beans and corn, with maybe a tiny bit of ground beef. Statins? I was making an epidemiological argument, not a political one. I would have thought that was obvious.
    It is a high fat, lower protein, and really high carbohydrate diet with a lot of heavily refined ingredients that causes issues.

    A higher fat, higher protein diet that is lower in carbs and refined foods is a very healthy one.

  9. #59
    Senior Member eja_ bottecchia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jon c. View Post
    I'm glad you've had the good fortune to be able to find such medical professionals. Can't say I've had the same luck. It's hard to find anyone interested in discussing the patient's overall health and few seem willing to provide much depth of information on any concern. I'm not condemning the entire profession, but from what I've seen your average patient isn't getting the sort of comprehensive care that the literature would tell us should result in less illness and lower long term costs.
    I am fortunate to live in a part of the country where excellent medical care is available. I agree that there has been a change, not for the better, in how healthcare is delivered. Dr. Marcus Welby where are you?
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  10. #60
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    The average life expectancy has increased because of better pre-natal care, better post natal care, and vaccinations.... and because we now put more value on our children.

    Go back hundreds of years and you will find that people who lived into young adulthood and were not killed by epidemics got to live nearly as long as modern humans.

    Look at any ancient burial ground and you will find a disproportionately high number of infant and child corpses.

  11. #61
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoebeisis View Post
    Bowl of ice cream pales in comparison to smoking( very hard to quit smoking-gum patches nose spray electronic cigs all much better than actual smoking)-
    to hell with quitting ice cream-attack the smoking-exercise more-
    "consider" once a week lipitor-
    Luck
    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Boy View Post
    I'm thinking Machka gets plenty of exercise. Smoking? I wasn't aware of that.
    As Sixty-Fiver pointed out ... and as I pointed out earlier in this thread (Post 22) ...

    I don't smoke. I have never smoked. I have never even tried smoking.

    I also don't drink. I didn't have my first drink till I was in my late 20s and since then I could probably count on one hand the number of alcoholic drinks I consume a year. Some years, I'd have several fingers left over after I finished the count.

    As for exercise ... I aim for the recommended 90 minutes a day (or 10.5 hours per week) . Some weeks I don't quite do it ... but many weeks I do quite a bit more. For many years over the past decade, I have logged 10,000 km/year ... plus walking ... plus cross-country skiing ... plus snow-shoeing ... plus weightlifting ....


    As I said back in Post 22 ... I've got those 3 things covered.

    It's the diet I need to tweak.


    (And no ... I won't "consider" once a week Lipitor. My Dr warned me off medications, and I'm on the same page she is.)

  12. #62
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Boy View Post
    I fought aortic valve insufficiency since birth. 2 valves replaced and in a much better place.
    Mine are ... aortic insufficiency, and mitral and tricuspid regurgitation.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    Yeah, this is rather interesting. When Australia was first settled (and I suppose this happened in America, too), the houses were built with doorways just like back in England -- at a height that a six-footer couldn't get through without stooping a lot.

    We get to watch a lot of shows done by British TV about homes in the country, and a lot of them have centuries of history behind them. Invariably, the ones built in the 15th, 16th and 17th centuries have low doorways. Look at how the ships of the day were designed -- they are almost impossible for anyone over 5'5" to get around inside.

    I'd say the average height appears to have increased substantially since that period.

    As to the less healthy, I think the longevity of the human also has increased substantially. This is quoted from a recent article about a Swedish researcher debunking modern urban myths:

    Life expectancy

    Average life expectancy in the world is currently 70 years. This is up from the average life expectancy of 60 years in the 1960s. But the current rate is much better news because it applies to the majority of the world's population. The 1960s figure was skewed because there was high life expectancy in wealthy nations and short life expectancy in poor nations.
    Height is respect to genetic potential is a pretty good marker for nutritional status-once agriculture became prevalent-populations EXPLODED- but people became shorter.
    Of course the folks on the lower end got mainly grain-and mainly one grain-by mainly I mean most of their calories.
    Animal products-it isn't just the protein-it is vitamins minerals other trace nutrients.

    Most of the average increase in life expectancy increase in the USA last 200 years or so,right?

  14. #64
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    Sorry Machka-I mis-read-scanned your post too quickly


    She told me I have two choices: 1) Statins, or 2) Lifestyle Change. She highly recommended I avoid the Statins, and go with the Lifestyle Change.

    The Lifestyle Change choice includes four main parts: 1) Stop Smoking, 2) Stop Drinking Alcohol, 3) Get more exercise, 4) Eat a healthy diet.

    In my case, I've got the first 3 parts covered already ... I just need to make a few adjustments to my diet.

    Reading quickly I took "I got the 1st three parts covered already" to mean you had done them-meaning "Stop smoking"

    Sorry for the mix up.
    Last edited by phoebeisis; 11-15-13 at 05:19 AM.

  15. #65
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoebeisis View Post
    But quitting ice cream vs starting statins was the choice she gave you?
    To clarify ...

    The choice she gave me was: 1) Statins, or 2) Lifestyle Change. She highly recommended I avoid the Statins, and go with the Lifestyle Change.

    As I mentioned "Lifestyle Change" includes: Smoking, Drinking, Exercise, and Diet.

    She and I discussed those 4 choices ... I don't smoke and never have. I rarely drink. I exercise a lot. So therefore, the only element of "lifestyle change" that I could really address would be my diet. She told me to carefully consider my diet and think about where I could make some improvements.

    And dropping the ice cream is the main improvement I could make ... my choice.


    Quote Originally Posted by phoebeisis View Post
    Reasonable serving of ice cream-say 200-250 calories worth in a 2500 calorie diet-isn't going to make much difference-especially if you eat a good diet otherwise.
    I have also done some reading about high triglycerides, and one of the things that has been mentioned a few times is that if people with high triglycerides simply dropped 10% of their body weight, their triglycerides could drop to normal. Well, if I am to drop 10% of my body weight, dropping the ice cream is certainly a step in the right direction.

    Assuming a bowl of ice cream were 200-250 calories, and assuming 1 lb is 3500 calories, in theory, I could lose 1 lb every 2 weeks by not eating ice cream ... before too long, I could drop that 10% of my body weight.

    And 2500 calories per day is a lot of calories! I hope I'm not eating that much! When I have used Fit Day and Daily Plate etc. to track my calories, it is usually under 2000/day.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    Link for your first statement?

    Funny again. My diet works exceptionally well, and maltodextrin is made from corn, not wheat. Your palmares? Since you bring up the Vietnamese, I realize I should have said "They used to do quite well on rice and wheat:"
    http://www.thanhniennews.com/index/p...n-vietnam.aspx

    Our industrial diet has gotten to them also. Now it not just Americans on statins, its 1/4 of Asia, too? Seems to me, and to medical professionals, that the idea that we should all eat a lot more meat and fat is completely backwards.

    My fat metabolism is exceptionally well-trained, however there is a maximum of about 300 calories/hour that can be metabolized using fat as an energy source. 200 is more usual. So if I'm working at even a moderate 500 calorie/hour rate, the rest of it has to come from somewhere. It's just simple math. The only thing that matters is how fast you can move the calories across the stomach wall. Fat is the slowest thing there is, being digested by the intestines rather than the stomach. When exercising, the higher the carbohydrate GI and the lower the osmolality of the carbohydrate, the better. This is well known and has been heavily studied. If you want to question it, please provide peer reviewed studies.

    BTW, my BP, BMI, and cholesterol levels are all quite good.
    But our glycogen stores- 100 grams liver 200-400 grams various muscles- if it was just 300 grams-that is 1200 calories-
    Add that to the 300 calories per hour of fat metabolism available(your numbers-)
    4 HOURS at 600 calories per hour- assuming zero calorie absorption.
    And we can and do convert amino acids-protein- to use as glucose-to drive our nerve cells which run strictly on "glucose" (simplified)

    I did not say our current diet is good-
    I did strongly imply that the diet Japanese and Vietnamese ate previously was inadequate-just use your eyes-their grandkids are inches taller-a diet extremely low in animal products-most calories from one grain- BAD DIET-

    These pacific folks-they sure as heck weren't eating lots of fruits and vegetables- FRUITS VEGETABLES MEAT EGGS MILK CHEESE were EXPENSIVE
    If their diet was SOOO GOOD- as you say-why didn't they reach their genetic height potential-like their grandkids?

    Same story in respect Europeans-door heights etc.

  17. #67
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    I will have to add that on a low carb diet my wife has lost over 25 pounds of post surgical weight that just wasn't going anywhere and I can't keep up with her.

    On a reduced carb diet I have lost almost 15 pounds of flubber and have replaced that and gained an extra 3-4 pounds of solid muscle lifting weights and by maintaining a moderate level of exercise... I have chronic pain issues that make intense activities difficult.

    We do not eat wheat or much grains, avoid refined foods, and enjoy lean meats, fish, bacon (it is a food grouP) and mix that with a lot of vegetables and a lesser amount of fruit.

    No sodas, no fruit juices (you need to eat your food and not drink it),and we are both doing great... my doctor wishes every 48 year old had my numbers although we both agree that the cholesterol numbers are pretty much meaningless.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machka View Post
    To clarify ...

    The choice she gave me was: 1) Statins, or 2) Lifestyle Change. She highly recommended I avoid the Statins, and go with the Lifestyle Change.

    As I mentioned "Lifestyle Change" includes: Smoking, Drinking, Exercise, and Diet.

    She and I discussed those 4 choices ... I don't smoke and never have. I rarely drink. I exercise a lot. So therefore, the only element of "lifestyle change" that I could really address would be my diet. She told me to carefully consider my diet and think about where I could make some improvements.

    And dropping the ice cream is the main improvement I could make ... my choice.




    I have also done some reading about high triglycerides, and one of the things that has been mentioned a few times is that if people with high triglycerides simply dropped 10% of their body weight, their triglycerides could drop to normal. Well, if I am to drop 10% of my body weight, dropping the ice cream is certainly a step in the right direction.

    Assuming a bowl of ice cream were 200-250 calories, and assuming 1 lb is 3500 calories, in theory, I could lose 1 lb every 2 weeks by not eating ice cream ... before too long, I could drop that 10% of my body weight.

    And 2500 calories per day is a lot of calories! I hope I'm not eating that much! When I have used Fit Day and Daily Plate etc. to track my calories, it is usually under 2000/day.
    Thanks- I get it-
    I do miss ice cream-gained 30 lbs eating 1 quart of Blue bell per day for 3 years.Still haven't lost the weight-
    I do miss it-eat it maybe once every 2 months now-I put it in milk-with hershey's cocoa powder-sugar and fake sweetener-boy vanilla ice cream and chocolate-sure is/was good!
    Maybe there is something to the glucose spike drop making you crave more sweets because I literally craved it(but it was soooo good!)
    Yeah loved it. 30 lbs worth- 150>180 over 3 years-

  19. #69
    Wheelsuck Fat Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    Tell that to our friends on the other side of the Pacific. They're doing quite well on rice and wheat, thank you. You don't even have to look that far - look just beyond the southern border of the USA. A very large number of people owe their lives to carbohydrate agricultural productivity. You are welcome to argue that you'd rather they were all dead, but they don't seem to appreciate that argument adequately.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    Anyone can view my comment history. As anyone can see, I do not make P&R comments nor do I even visit that forum.

    Is that really the link you want? Because it says that the industrial food machine is now taking over Mexico, with its high fat, high protein diet. McDonalds, anyone? I haven't been down there in almost 40 years, but I remember a country of healthy, thin people, who ate mostly beans and corn, with maybe a tiny bit of ground beef. Statins? I was making an epidemiological argument, not a political one. I would have thought that was obvious.
    First, my confusion was based on your "...you'd rather they were all dead..." comment. It seemed bizarre and fairly inappropriate. I guess it was a joke? Perhaps it should have been obvious, but I missed it.

    Second, yes, I chose the correct link. The same diet that kills Americans kills the rest of the planet. It's not high in naturally sourced fats, that's for sure. Like you said, it's the industrial fast food production.

    Traditional Mexican fair is generally meat, rice, beans and some veggies. Fresh salsas are used often. The rice will have tomatoes, peppers, onions, etc. in it. The beans will often be refried and loaded up with goodies like lard. Corn tortillas are very common. Deep frying in beef tallow is very common. In general, there is not much wheat. You might find some wheat in some pan dulce treats, but it's largely not present. When they stick to their traditional foods, they are quite health. When they start using Bimbo bread, industrial oils for cooking and emulating 'American' food it has obviously not worked out. In my opinion, they are probably consuming less fat than before, but for sure, they're consuming the wrong types of fat and it's tragic.

    CFB, largely we agree on foods. We both rely on whole foods for the bulk of our diets. We both get our protein largely concentrated by cows (you in the form of whey and me in the form of flesh). You tend to fuel with carbohydrates and I tend to fuel with fats. I have no doubt that what you say about your BP, BMI, and cholesterol all being healthy. Have you had triglycerides looked at? Maybe you are more fortunate than I am in terms of carbohydrate processing. If I take in a bunch of carbs, I'll see high triglycerides. As it is, they stay around 50. I limit grains because they are the biggest hitter in terms of a high G.I. carb load in the standard American diet. If you replace them with more colored vegetables, you end up with a much more nutritive diet and one that me personally feel better.

    We agree about much more than we disagree upon. There's really no need to get upset.
    Austin doesn't have hippies. They have slightly rebellious Methodists. - Racer Ex

  20. #70
    Wheelsuck Fat Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoebeisis View Post
    Thanks- I get it-
    I do miss ice cream-gained 30 lbs eating 1 quart of Blue bell per day for 3 years.Still haven't lost the weight-
    I do miss it-eat it maybe once every 2 months now-I put it in milk-with hershey's cocoa powder-sugar and fake sweetener-boy vanilla ice cream and chocolate-sure is/was good!
    Maybe there is something to the glucose spike drop making you crave more sweets because I literally craved it(but it was soooo good!)
    Yeah loved it. 30 lbs worth- 150>180 over 3 years-
    Absolutely there is.
    Austin doesn't have hippies. They have slightly rebellious Methodists. - Racer Ex

  21. #71
    Senior Member wolfchild's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post

    As to the less healthy, I think the longevity of the human also has increased substantially. This is quoted from a recent article about a Swedish researcher debunking modern urban myths:

    Life expectancy

    Average life expectancy in the world is currently 70 years. This is up from the average life expectancy of 60 years in the 1960s. But the current rate is much better news because it applies to the majority of the world's population. The 1960s figure was skewed because there was high life expectancy in wealthy nations and short life expectancy in poor nations.
    The reason why people today live longer is because of medical science and prescription drugs. It's not because people today are stronger or healthier. Our rates of obesity and diabetes are at an all time high and still climbing higher and I blame our modern diet which is way too high in carbs and too high in industrial vegetable oils. Take away all those modern drugs and half of the population would die...Heck, people can't even function properly unless they get their daily " sugar fix ". Human body has not evolved to live on large amounts of high glycemic food day after day.

  22. #72
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver View Post
    I will have to add that on a low carb diet my wife has lost over 25 pounds of post surgical weight that just wasn't going anywhere and I can't keep up with her.

    On a reduced carb diet I have lost almost 15 pounds of flubber and have replaced that and gained an extra 3-4 pounds of solid muscle lifting weights and by maintaining a moderate level of exercise... I have chronic pain issues that make intense activities difficult.

    We do not eat wheat or much grains, avoid refined foods, and enjoy lean meats, fish, bacon (it is a food grouP) and mix that with a lot of vegetables and a lesser amount of fruit.

    No sodas, no fruit juices (you need to eat your food and not drink it),and we are both doing great... my doctor wishes every 48 year old had my numbers although we both agree that the cholesterol numbers are pretty much meaningless.
    I've done about the same thing: held the protein constant and varied the carbs according to activity and the scale. Weight has dropped at a little over 1 lb./month. We eat grains, vegetables, fruit, dairy, and all the usual stuff, including the usual high-carb sports drinks.

    We do go through the whey protein, not being mammal or dinosaur eaters. I do get tired of it, having been using it every day for at least 15 years. I'd much rather be eating salmon - but the cost for the two of us to replace the whey with ocean caught salmon would be about $400/month even buying at Costco. The whey, in contrast, costs us about $70/month.

    Our tandem power numbers keep going up on Strava even as our weight has gone down and our Strava profile revised. I guess I shouldn't complain!

  23. #73
    Wheelsuck Fat Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
    Heck, people can't even function properly unless they get their daily " sugar fix ".
    Let's be honest, I'm not worth much prior to my black tea in the morning, either!
    Austin doesn't have hippies. They have slightly rebellious Methodists. - Racer Ex

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Boy View Post
    Absolutely there is.
    It certainly seemed that way-carbs seemed to make me hungry again in an hour or so
    or maybe it was just SOOOO GOOD!

  25. #75
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoebeisis View Post
    But our glycogen stores- 100 grams liver 200-400 grams various muscles- if it was just 300 grams-that is 1200 calories-
    Add that to the 300 calories per hour of fat metabolism available(your numbers-)
    4 HOURS at 600 calories per hour- assuming zero calorie absorption.
    And we can and do convert amino acids-protein- to use as glucose-to drive our nerve cells which run strictly on "glucose" (simplified)

    I did not say our current diet is good-
    I did strongly imply that the diet Japanese and Vietnamese ate previously was inadequate-just use your eyes-their grandkids are inches taller-a diet extremely low in animal products-most calories from one grain- BAD DIET-

    These pacific folks-they sure as heck weren't eating lots of fruits and vegetables- FRUITS VEGETABLES MEAT EGGS MILK CHEESE were EXPENSIVE
    If their diet was SOOO GOOD- as you say-why didn't they reach their genetic height potential-like their grandkids?

    Same story in respect Europeans-door heights etc.
    As I said in post #41 :
    my stomach won't be able to keep up with my energy expenditure, glycogen being long gone since I'm also working on losing weight.
    I run my carbs below energy consumption Monday-Thursday, so I'm frequently glycogen depleted when I exercise, on purpose.
    Low muscle glycogen amplifies the activation of signalling proteins (in particular AMPK and MAPK for those who are interested). Both of these proteins help control gene transcription, which ultimately result in adaptations like increased mitochondria.
    http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2009...aining-in.html

    I don't think conflating size with health is necessarily the thing to do. Okinawans are a tiny people, yet they used to routinely live to 100.
    Their overall traditional diet would be considered a very-high-carbohydrate diet by modern standards, with carbohydrates, protein, and fat providing 85%, 9% and 6% of total calories respectively.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawa_diet
    http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandst...et-live-to-100

    The high fat and protein diets I see recommended in this thread by low carb advocates look exactly like the caloric distribution of a Big Mac. So eat 3-4 Big Macs/day and your cholesterol will drop? I don't think so.

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