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  1. #51
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    We have a well stocked bar... we like our whiskey (neat) and will go through spells where we might have a little each night or go without for longer periods.

    It is not a thing that I crave but really do enjoy a nicely aged Scotch or Rye whiskey.

    The only time we ever drink soda is when we make Cuba Libras in the summertime and over Christmas I usually make traditional eggnog but we are passing on that this year as it is just too much sugar.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Boy View Post
    I wasn't really looking for validation, vindication, consensus or anything else in particular. I was just making small talk. Some of you are wound a little tight.
    All care and no responsibility?

    You started the thread. You must have known it might have gone in certain directions. You asked for opinions. People are giving them.
    Dream. Dare. Do.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    It's called denial.
    You guys continue to make my point. Anyone who drinks on a regular basis has a drinking problem. Anyone who takes offense at this suggestion proves that they have a problem. Modern day temperance movement.

    Machka, I mentioned in my last post that I've run your abstinence experiment many times since I've reached legal drinking age (although never deliberately.) In moderation I notice absolutely no difference in the way I feel with or without alcohol. I burn 5-6k calories on the bike per week which affords some additional calories on the consumption side of the ledger.

    Now please excuse me while I go have a drink.
    Last edited by Dunbar; 12-13-13 at 11:02 PM.

  4. #54
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunbar View Post
    You guys continue to make my point. Anyone who drinks on a regular basis has a drinking problem. Anyone who takes offense at this suggestion proves that they have a problem. Accusing someone of being an alcoholic is not a joking matter.

    Machka, I mentioned in my last post that I've run your abstinence experiment many times since I've reached legal drinking age (although never deliberately.) In moderation I notice absolutely no difference in the way I feel with or without alcohol.
    You're the one who has mentioned the word "alcoholic" ... not me. Since you brought it up ... is it something you're concerned about? Or others?

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machka View Post
    You're the one who has mentioned the word "alcoholic" ... not me. Since you brought it up ... is it something you're concerned about? Or others?
    Recommending people stop drinking for a period of time is to insinuate that they might have a problem. This is what you posted earlier in this thread. You seem to be pretty judgmental of regular drinkers. Why do you feel so strongly about it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Machka View Post
    I wonder ... why drink? Really ... what's the point? And have those of you who drink regularly ever tried going several months without in order to compare the difference?
    Here's a little thought experiment. Let's say I accused you of being homophobic. You deny that accusation but get defensive. I say "see you're getting defensive which proves you are homophobic. If you aren't homophobic than you wouldn't be getting defensive." That's what you and carbonfiberboy keep doing.
    Last edited by Dunbar; 12-13-13 at 11:23 PM.

  6. #56
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    If you reread my posts, you'll find that I'm not being judgemental at all. You're reading judgement into what I'm writing for some reason.

    I'm genuinely curious ... what is the point of drinking? From what I can see, it costs more money than many other beverage choices, it tastes bad, it causes weight gain, it changes people's personality ...

    What's so attractive about it that people are willing to overlook the negatives and drink anyway.

  7. #57
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Estimated Caloric Content of Alcoholic Beverages


  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machka View Post
    If you reread my posts, you'll find that I'm not being judgemental at all.
    Your questions seemed to come from a pretty judgmental place. You don't personally drink but you can't understand why 2/3 of the adult population does? The very first thing you suggest to regular drinkers is that they stop for a period of time. That seems seems to come from a judgmental place as well.

    For something that is scientifically proven to be good for your health in moderation the anti-alcohol sentiment in this thread is bewildering.
    Last edited by Dunbar; 12-14-13 at 01:37 AM.

  9. #59
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunbar View Post
    Your questions seemed to come from a pretty judgmental place. You don't personally drink but you can't understand why 2/3 of the adult population does? The very first thing you suggest to regular drinkers is that they stop for a period of time. That seems seems to come from a judgmental place as well.

    For something that is scientifically proven to be good for your health in moderation the anti-alcohol sentiment in this thread is bewildering.
    You're assuming I'm coming from a judgemental place for some reason.

    You've mentioned that you think drinking in moderation is scientifically proven a couple times now. Please provide links for this assumption.

    Also, in your first post you seemed to think that 3-4 drinks was still within healthy limits. You said, "I'll have 3-4 drinks but, as I understand it, that's still within the "healthy drinking" guidelines." Please provide links for that claim too.

    It would be informative.

    Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunbar View Post
    Your questions seemed to come from a pretty judgmental place. You don't personally drink but you can't understand why 2/3 of the adult population does? The very first thing you suggest to regular drinkers is that they stop for a period of time. That seems seems to come from a judgmental place as well.

    For something that is scientifically proven to be good for your health in moderation the anti-alcohol sentiment in this thread is bewildering.
    Machka is obviously judgmental, but just can't deal with being called out for it.
    Chaad--'95 DeKerf Team SL, '02 Lemond Buenos Aires, '05 Novara Buzz, '73 Schwinn Collegiate, '06 Mountain Cycle Rumble, '09 Dahon Mariner D7, '12 Mercier Nano, '12 Breezer Venturi

  11. #61
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
    Machka is obviously judgmental, but just can't deal with being called out for it.


    Totally hammered again?

    It's all OK ... I'm sure it's all "in moderation".

  12. #62
    In the Pain Cave thechemist's Avatar
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    I homebrew and drink on a regular basis. Affects my sleep but I can drink and ride the next day. I cut back quite a bit race season.

  13. #63
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    My first A Cat podium was after a raging keg party till 2am the night before (or that morning if you want to get technical.

    I'm sticking with that premise.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machka View Post
    You've mentioned that you think drinking in moderation is scientifically proven a couple times now. Please provide links for this assumption.
    I already provided this Harvard EDU link:

    http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritio...ol-full-story/

    Also, in your first post you seemed to think that 3-4 drinks was still within healthy limits. You said, "I'll have 3-4 drinks but, as I understand it, that's still within the "healthy drinking" guidelines." Please provide links for that claim too.
    It's funny how you misquote me and leave out the "on occasion" part...I won't read too much into that...The guidelines say that men can have up to 4 drinks on occasion without it being considered a problem. An occasion means a special occasion, as in a party or night out with friends. The rest of the time you shouldn't exceed 1/day;7/week for women and 2/day;14/week for men. These guidelines are out there for anyone to see for themselves if they're willing to a spend a few minutes on a search engine...

    Last edited by Dunbar; 12-14-13 at 11:39 AM.

  15. #65
    Senior Member wolfchild's Avatar
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    Can we all conclude that it's the dose that makes the poison ??. It has been scientifically proven that moderate consumption of alcohol does have health benefits...but then it has also been proven that exercise has health benefits, so which one are you going to choose ?.. One drink per day is ok for people who are sedentary and don't care about athletic performance....The main reason why I don't drink very often is because it affects my performance, energy levels and recovery too much.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machka View Post


    Totally hammered again?

    It's all OK ... I'm sure it's all "in moderation".
    Ooof...hammered? No, I can't handle that again so soon! In fact, I'm not even tipsy, but I am judgmental, which I freely admit and own up to. As I'm sure you can imagine, I've judged you based on your comments, and found you wanting. That's not to say your a bad person, though you may be, just that I'm not at all fond of your goody-two-shoes attitude. Others may be though, and you certainly supply some good content when you're not on your high horse, so don't go changing on account of what I think.
    Chaad--'95 DeKerf Team SL, '02 Lemond Buenos Aires, '05 Novara Buzz, '73 Schwinn Collegiate, '06 Mountain Cycle Rumble, '09 Dahon Mariner D7, '12 Mercier Nano, '12 Breezer Venturi

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
    It has been scientifically proven that moderate consumption of alcohol does have health benefits...but then it has also been proven that exercise has health benefits, so which one are you going to choose ?
    It's possible to get health benefits from doing both. It's not like you have to choose one or the other. What you're suggesting is called a false dichotomy.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunbar View Post
    You mean stories about peer reviewed scientific studies that show moderate alcohol consumption is associated with longer life-span and a reduced risk of developing heart disease and type 2 diabetes?

    There are apparently a lot of people like you who would love nothing else than to be able to say, with authority, that alcohol is bad for you. I call it the modern day temperance movement. Unfortunately for these people the scientific research is very clear that moderate alcohol consumption is beneficial to one's health.

    IME, if you have a drink or two more frequently your body would get used to it and you don't notice it the next day on a ride.
    Plenty of evidence that call amounts of alcohol-are "good" for you.
    The problem is "small" not the USA way-hell not the anywhere way.
    People like to get high!

  19. #69
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    Again, science shows that moderate alcohol consumption is not detrimental and an ounce a whiskey a few times a week is good medicine.


  20. #70
    Lover of Old Chrome Moly Myosmith's Avatar
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    I drink very moderately. A 4 oz glass of red wine in the evening 2-3 times a week and maybe a beer a week over the summer (I rarely drink beer in the winter). It is highly unusual for me to have more than one or two drinks in a sitting and I frequently go for weeks without consuming any alcohol. There are some proven benefits to light consumption of alcohol with red wine leading the way in health benefits. Here are some links:

    http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/alcohol/SC00024
    http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/alcohol/
    http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encycl...ContentID=1429
    http://www.med.umich.edu/umim/food-pyramid/alcohol.htm
    Lead, follow or get out of the way

  21. #71
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myosmith View Post
    There are some proven benefits to light consumption of alcohol with red wine leading the way in health benefits. Here are some links:

    http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/alcohol/SC00024
    This is an interesting article.

    I quote ...



    Moderate alcohol consumption may provide some health benefits. It may:

    [reduce the risk of various things]

    Even so, the evidence about the possible health benefits of alcohol isn't certain, and alcohol may not benefit everyone who drinks.

    Moderate alcohol use may be of most benefit only if you're an older adult or if you have existing risk factors for heart disease, such as high cholesterol. If you're a middle-aged or younger adult, some evidence shows that even moderate alcohol use may cause more harm than good. In fact, if you're a woman and drink alcohol, talk to your doctor about taking supplemental folate to help reduce the risk of breast cancer associated with alcohol use. You can take other steps to benefit your cardiovascular health besides drinking ó eating a healthy diet and exercising, for example.

    And there's more. Read the whole article.

    The benefits sound "proven" to me.

  22. #72
    Lover of Old Chrome Moly Myosmith's Avatar
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    I did read each article in its entirety and posted a good range of representative articles from recognized medical authorities (not just snippets that support my views). The majority of competent studies by recognized universities and medical institutions have concluded that there is evidence (aka. proof) that moderate (one or two drinks per day for an adult male) consumption of alcohol raises HDL and decreases the chance of intravascular blood clots. Less conclusive indications were found that the same level of alcohol consumption may have benefits for blood pressure, metabolism and digestion. The antioxidants in red wine (particularly resveratrol) decrease homocystene levels and inflammation and are being investigated for lowering the risk of some cancers.

    So yes, there is proof of some benefits of moderate alcohol consumption with additional benefits from red wine. There are also indications of some possible additional benefits that require more investigation. Like any other dietary or medication recommendation, there is an up side and a down side. No one recommendation is right for everyone and excessive alcohol consumption greatly swings the benefit/risk pendulum to the negative side. Moderation, as in so many things, is the key. You also made the point about the calories in alcohol and those do have to be included and considered in your overall nutrition plan.

    Nobody (at least among competent medical authorities) is recommending that non-drinkers start drinking for the health benefits. Nor is anyone saying that alcohol consumption is any substitute for good nutrition and appropriate exercise or that there aren't other interventions which may achieve the same or even greater benefits. What is being said is that for those who choose to consume alcohol, moderate consumption has relatively low health risk for the majority of adults with some recognized health benefits and a few other possible health benefits under investigation. It is up to the individual to look at the available pool of evidence and decide what is right for them. Certainly the risks are higher for some people and heavy use/abuse of alcohol is a very bad thing with negative impact on the individual and society.

    I personally like red wine and enjoy a cold beer with my friends on a hot summer afternoon. I have looked at the evidence and decided that there was adequate proof that the health benefits outweigh or at least balance out the risks of having 2-3 drinks a week on average. When I don't have a drink for a few weeks at a time I certainly don't feel that I am missing out on anything. I never drive with alcohol in my system and never consume an alcoholic beverage within 12-hours of going on duty.

    Machka, I very much respect your opinions and am a fan of your posts and website. If you choose not to drink alcohol, I certainly am not going to try to convince you otherwise.
    Lead, follow or get out of the way

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machka View Post
    This is an interesting article.

    I quote ...

    Moderate alcohol consumption may provide some health benefits. It may:

    [reduce the risk of various things]

    Even so, the evidence about the possible health benefits of alcohol isn't certain, and alcohol may not benefit everyone who drinks.

    Moderate alcohol use may be of most benefit only if you're an older adult or if you have existing risk factors for heart disease, such as high cholesterol. If you're a middle-aged or younger adult, some evidence shows that even moderate alcohol use may cause more harm than good. In fact, if you're a woman and drink alcohol, talk to your doctor about taking supplemental folate to help reduce the risk of breast cancer associated with alcohol use. You can take other steps to benefit your cardiovascular health besides drinking — eating a healthy diet and exercising, for example.

    And there's more. Read the whole article.

    The benefits sound "proven" to me.
    Which is interesting since the Harvard article I linked says the opposite and cites studies to back it up:
    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ ________
    "The connection between moderate drinking and lower risk of cardiovascular disease has been observed in men and women. It applies to people who do not apparently have heart disease, and also to those at high risk for having a heart attack or stroke or dying of cardiovascular disease, including those with type 2 diabetes, (5, 6) high blood pressure, (7, 8) and existing cardiovascular disease. (7, 8) The benefits also extend to older individuals. (9)"
    ________________________________________________________________________________________________

    If you read further down in the Harvard article they also address the same point the Mayo Clinic is making (risk vs. benefit):
    ________________________________________________________________________________________________

    "The benefits and risks of moderate drinking change over a lifetime. In general, risks exceed benefits until middle age, when cardiovascular disease begins to account for an increasingly large share of the burden of disease and death.


    • For a pregnant woman and her unborn child, a recovering alcoholic, a person with liver disease, and people taking one or more medications that interact with alcohol, moderate drinking offers little benefit and substantial risks.
    • For a 30-year-old man, the increased risk of alcohol-related accidents outweighs the possible heart-related benefits of moderate alcohol consumption.
    • For a 60-year-old man, a drink a day may offer protection against heart disease that is likely to outweigh potential harm (assuming he isn’t prone to alcoholism).
    • For a 60-year-old woman, the benefit/risk calculations are trickier. Ten times more women die each year from heart disease (460,000) than from breast cancer (41,000). However, studies show that women are far more afraid of developing breast cancer than heart disease, something that must be factored into the equation."

    _______________________________________________________________________________________________

    So yes, if you can't be responsible when you're drinking than the health benefits don't outweigh the risks until you get older. But let's be honest, that comes down to personal responsibility and it's not the alcohol's fault if you can't control yourself when drinking. What they're saying is that since young men are already at low risk for developing heart disease at that age there isn't much benefit yet to reducing their risk [further] through moderate alcohol consumption. That's not the same thing as saying alcohol does not provide any health benefits to men prior to reaching middle age.

    I don't know any doctor who would advise a 30 year old man to forgo exercise because their risk of having a heart attack or stroke is so low at that age. Or tell their patients to wait until they reach middle age before they bother taking up exercise. After all, people who exercise are at higher risk of injuring themselves compared to sedentary people. I don't see the Mayo Clinic claiming that the same sort of risk vs. benefit analysis needs to be considered when it comes to exercise.
    Last edited by Dunbar; 12-15-13 at 10:57 PM.

  24. #74
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunbar View Post
    Which is interesting since the Harvard article I linked says the opposite and cites studies to back it up. I don't see where the Mayo Clinic is citing any research to support their opinion.

    "The connection between moderate drinking and lower risk of cardiovascular disease has been observed in men and women. It applies to people who do not apparently have heart disease, and also to those at high risk for having a heart attack or stroke or dying of cardiovascular disease, including those with type 2 diabetes, (5, 6) high blood pressure, (7, 8) and existing cardiovascular disease. (7, 8) The benefits also extend to older individuals. (9)"


    If you read further down in the Harvard article they say thing following:

    "The benefits and risks of moderate drinking change over a lifetime. In general, risks exceed benefits until middle age, when cardiovascular disease begins to account for an increasingly large share of the burden of disease and death.


    • For a pregnant woman and her unborn child, a recovering alcoholic, a person with liver disease, and people taking one or more medications that interact with alcohol, moderate drinking offers little benefit and substantial risks.
    • For a 30-year-old man, the increased risk of alcohol-related accidents outweighs the possible heart-related benefits of moderate alcohol consumption.
    • For a 60-year-old man, a drink a day may offer protection against heart disease that is likely to outweigh potential harm (assuming he isnít prone to alcoholism).
    • For a 60-year-old woman, the benefit/risk calculations are trickier. Ten times more women die each year from heart disease (460,000) than from breast cancer (41,000). However, studies show that women are far more afraid of developing breast cancer than heart disease, something that must be factored into the equation."


    So yes, if you can't be responsible when you're drinking than the health benefits don't outweigh the risks until you get older (and presumably more responsible.) But let's be honest, that comes down to personal responsibility and it's not the alcohol's fault if you can't control yourself when drinking. What they're saying is that since young men already at low risk for developing heart disease at that age there isn't much benefit yet to reducing their risk [further] through moderate alcohol consumption. That's not the same thing as saying alcohol does not provide any health benefits to men prior to reaching middle age. I don't know any doctor who would advise a 30 year old man to forgo exercise because their risk of having a heart attack or stroke is so low at that age. After all, people who exercise are at much higher risk of injuring themselves than sedentary people. I don't see the Mayo Clinic claiming the same sort of risk vs. benefit analysis needs to be considered when it comes to exercise.
    I quoted the conclusion of the article you keep referring to back in post #36 :
    http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...1#post16324747

    The operative phrase would be the first sentence of that conclusion:
    Given the complexity of alcoholís effects on the body and the complexity of the people who drink it, blanket recommendations about alcohol are out of the question.
    However, that is exactly what you keep doing, regardless of what your favorite link says.

    Doesn't sound like the opposite to me.

    I also drink a little wine most weeks, maybe 2 glasses, maybe nothing, and have one beer after the Sunday group ride. But I wouldn't recommend that to anyone. Some of my fellow riders have coffee or a Diet Coke, both probably superior to beer for recovery. Caffeine has been shown to have positive value for recovery. Alcohol has not, but I drink it anyway.

  25. #75
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    I'm pointing out that the health benefits of moderate alcohol consumption are scientifically proven. I am taking issue with anyone who claims otherwise. I am not making, nor have I made, any recommendations.
    Last edited by Dunbar; 12-15-13 at 11:36 PM.

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