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  1. #101
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    feral- used to describe an animal that has escaped and become wild

  2. #102
    Senior Member GeorgeBMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
    Yeah my response could have been clearer. I found the doc too sensationalist and clutching at straws. So I did my own research on the matter.

    And the US dairy industry can push the fact that milk is the perfect food. No food is perfect but milk is pretty darn good by today's standards. But milk like everything is best in moderation.

    And just to be clear.
    The BCM-7 is not bad for you. No science supports it.
    The bovine insulin is really only potentially bad for infants. And even then it is still unclear whether even that is true. It might be that milk speeds up the onset of type 1 for those who would get it anyway. Or it could cause it to infants who are in the risk group. It does not seem to have an effect on those out of the risk groups.
    But you never really know about type 1 diabetes. Some people seem to "know" why some get type 1 and some don't but for science it's still a mystery. Could be vitamin D, genetics, viral infection causing a gene corruption. But you can never actually tell what caused someone to get type 1 (it's not always clear with other diseases either but if you get a smoker with COPD it should not be a mystery what caused it)
    Actually, it sounds like YOU are the one clutching at straws... First, you criticize the film for things it didn't say -- and then you claim that your own claims back scientific basis...
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  3. #103
    Senior Member elcruxio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
    Actually, it sounds like YOU are the one clutching at straws... First, you criticize the film for things it didn't say -- and then you claim that your own claims back scientific basis...
    Read my post. I didn't criticise the film for what it did not say. I did my own research about milk because the doc sucked.

    Secondly. Antibiotics, hormones and other nasty stuff in milk is primarily an American problem. It boggles my mind that your officials and laws let that happen but whatever. They are not as such cons for milk. They are cons for american milk. Purely produced milk is awesome and does not contain antibiotics or other exogenous harmful substances.

    And as third issue. I did back my claims with science. The EFSA (European Food Safety Authority) has concluded with a study citing over 500 other studies that the A1 milk containing BCM-7 is not a health hazard.

  4. #104
    Wheelsuck Fat Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robabeatle View Post
    I was flipping through a book at the book store this weekend that critiqued the Paleo movement. Vaguely, I remember two points:

    1. There is evidence that humans have been eating grains for tens of thousands of years.

    2. Evolution can work faster than most realize, this includes on the microflora that help us digest.
    This ramble kind of covers a couple bases.

    I don't eat 'Paleo' per say, but I find it pretty difficult to throw stones at the concept. I think people get a bit lost in the name. It isn't an attempt at a historical re-inactment. It's primarily a way to try to eat the most nutrient dense, easily digested foods available. Wheat causes problems with a lot of people, that's just reality. You don't have to have Celiac to have problems with gluten. Grains, in general, are primarily a source of carbs, which are not difficult to find. If I'm looking for a carb source, I'll go to something like a sweet potato that is plenty carb dense and has fewer negatives.

    'Healthy Whole Grain' bread and wonder bread produce the same basic insulin response, which is pretty pronounced. Get a blood glucose meter and check yourself sometime. A sandwich can produce a pronounced blood sugar spike, and that's probably not great for long term health in most situations. In addition, grains don't really give you much. In the US, the bread is fortified with a certain number of vitamins and minerals. Big deal, so are Pop-tarts, that doesn't make them particularly healthy. The phytates contained in the wheat will reduce the ability of the body to absorb the minerals anyway, so it doesn't really matter if they're there or not.

    The fiber component of whole wheat is something that everyone mentions, but if you want fiber, eat a salad. In terms of the amount of fiber from a given caloric intake, green-leafy vegetables have about 2-3X the amount of fiber for a given calorie content. I just don't get that argument.

    About the 10k years and evolution aspect. First 10,000 years is a mouse fart in the grand scheme of things. At times, we can get quick (relatively speaking) adaptations to things, but this is less a product of a change in genetics and more a product of the change in epigenetics (how our genetics are expressed). Another thing that I think is really important when we start taking about wheat (and many other grains), is that in the last 25-100 years, these plants have been bred to be significantly different than what they were prior. The wheat of your great-grandfather and the wheat of Caesar or Christ was very similar. The wheat of your great-grandfather and you is a completely different plant. It's been bread to have 10x the yield and be much more agriculture friendly. Agriculture friendly often does not mean consumer friendly. I'd say if you just can't leave bread out of your diet, then the best route is a sprouted wheat bread like the Ezekiel brand. At best, though, I think bread is a convenience food as opposed to a truly healthy one. If you're particularly adventurous, you could bake your own bread with a 'heritage' wheat flour, like Einkorn. That might be less of an issue, but 'better' doesn't mean 'good'.

    I see milk in a similar light. I think it has applications, but limitations as well. I'm hard pressed to call anything 'The perfect food'. In my mind, a good diet is fairly varied. I do eat plenty of grass-fed butter, some greek yogurt here and there and also some cheese. I don't end up with G.I. issues out of them, so I don't really worry about it. If I felt is was causing problems (dairy causes a lot of people acne and G.I. problems) for me, I wouldn't eat it. Seems like a pretty simple philosophy.
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  5. #105
    Senior Member robabeatle's Avatar
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    Hey Fatboy, have you ever checked your insulin response to say a piece of wheat bread and then separately to a piece of wheat with other macrs included like a serving of fat? I am curious if the fat and/or protein would attenuate the insulin spike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robabeatle View Post
    Hey Fatboy, have you ever checked your insulin response to say a piece of wheat bread and then separately to a piece of wheat with other macrs included like a serving of fat? I am curious if the fat and/or protein would attenuate the insulin spike.
    Well, I don't have a way to measure insulin directly, so all I can measure is blood glucose. If you have a carb with some fat (say bread and butter), it slows the digestion of the carb. This will make for a lower blood sugar spike, but a longer duration elevation of blood sugar. Ultimately, I believe you end up with the same basic total insulin release.

    To answer your question more clearly, No, I've never done that test.
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  7. #107
    Senior Member eriku16's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Boy View Post
    I don't eat 'Paleo' per say, but I find it pretty difficult to throw stones at the concept..
    Sounds like a well versed Paleo follower from the looks of it. I use to work with some individuals that sound exactly the same. Using the same talking points full of fear mongering, pseudo-science and misinformation. I Could not talk any sense to any of them. Paleo is getting more like a religion/cult than some diet.

  8. #108
    I STILL miss East Hill :) Rollfast's Avatar
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    If there is a Paleo predator, what is their mortality rate like?
    Quote Originally Posted by 10 Wheels
    They can't fix expansion joints, because they expand.
    Smile at Miles with a ROLLFAST!

  9. #109
    Wheelsuck Fat Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eriku16 View Post
    Sounds like a well versed Paleo follower from the looks of it. I use to work with some individuals that sound exactly the same. Using the same talking points full of fear mongering, pseudo-science and misinformation. I Could not talk any sense to any of them. Paleo is getting more like a religion/cult than some diet.
    (This goes fairly far off topic and not really related to the present milk debate.)

    This is supposed to be an insult? I guess I just don't care. I did a hard workout today, so I'm having a hard time getting too worked up. At least I'm 'well versed'! That's gotta be better than 'poorly versed', doesn't it?

    I'm all ears for reasons why what I wrote was so bad. Honestly. I really am interested in learning more about nutrition. I guess I'd prefer some sort of dialogue to a monologue.

    For what it's worth, off the top of my head I can give you a run-down of what I eat that for sure isn't Paleo. Dairy, corn, rice and buckwheat are all things I eat that are definitely not Paleo approved. The only thing that I really actively avoid is wheat/gluten. I just haven't seen any advantage to eating it and there seem to be lots of problems around it. I have yet to hear of anyone hurting themselves by 'chronic wheat deficiency'. I'll eat beans at times, but the gas I get from them can get a little out of hand. I do kind of avoid those, but, unlike the wheat thing, it's just something I don't personally react well to, it's not a philosophical objection but a physical one.

    If I were going to label my eating any certain way, I would probably go with 'moderate carb', but others would possibly call me 'low carb'. 'Low carb' to me is like what Sixty-Fiver eats, which is ketogenic or damned close. If I'm going to be riding hard, I definitely need carbs. To that end, I try to eat an appropriate amount of carbs for the output I have planned. If I'm going on a hard Saturday morning ride, which is a little over 4 hours/75 miles total, I'll have a chunk of maybe 100 grams of carbs for breakfast and fruit in my pockets for the ride. If I'm feeling particularly adventurous, I'll have made some 'Allen Lim Rice Bars' and eat 1 or 2 of those. It's a bunch of carbs either way, but it's carbs that are being used as soon as they are hit the blood stream, which generally isn't too big of an issue in terms of overall, long-term health. By the end of the ride, I'll have maybe a total of 800-1000 calories eaten for the day and 2,100+ expended.

    In general, though, on a day that I don't have a hard ride or workout planned, I'll get my carbs from vegetables and maybe an orange, pear or apple thrown in for a snack. My total carb intake might come in somewhere around 100 grams. That seems to work fairly well for me, so until I can find something that works better, that's kind of where I find myself.
    Austin doesn't have hippies. They have slightly rebellious Methodists. - Racer Ex

  10. #110
    I STILL miss East Hill :) Rollfast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robabeatle View Post
    Hey Fatboy, have you ever checked your insulin response to say a piece of wheat bread and then separately to a piece of wheat with other macrs included like a serving of fat? I am curious if the fat and/or protein would attenuate the insulin spike.
    No, I just take more insulin when it rises at the next dosage time. It IS embarassing that I have full Medicare/state Medicaid and full LIS ('extra help') and my 67 year old mother has less coverage though.
    Quote Originally Posted by 10 Wheels
    They can't fix expansion joints, because they expand.
    Smile at Miles with a ROLLFAST!

  11. #111
    I STILL miss East Hill :) Rollfast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lenA View Post
    feral- used to describe an animal that has escaped and become wild
    Does that apply to guerrilla cows as well?

    Quote Originally Posted by 10 Wheels
    They can't fix expansion joints, because they expand.
    Smile at Miles with a ROLLFAST!

  12. #112
    I STILL miss East Hill :) Rollfast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
    Yeah my response could have been clearer. I found the doc too sensationalist and clutching at straws. So I did my own research on the matter.

    And the US dairy industry can push the fact that milk is the perfect food. No food is perfect but milk is pretty darn good by today's standards. But milk like everything is best in moderation.

    And just to be clear.
    The BCM-7 is not bad for you. No science supports it.
    The bovine insulin is really only potentially bad for infants. And even then it is still unclear whether even that is true. It might be that milk speeds up the onset of type 1 for those who would get it anyway. Or it could cause it to infants who are in the risk group. It does not seem to have an effect on those out of the risk groups.
    But you never really know about type 1 diabetes. Some people seem to "know" why some get type 1 and some don't but for science it's still a mystery. Could be vitamin D, genetics, viral infection causing a gene corruption. But you can never actually tell what caused someone to get type 1 (it's not always clear with other diseases either but if you get a smoker with COPD it should not be a mystery what caused it)
    Bovine insulin in milk would be broken down by the digestive system. That's why it's injected...it needs to go into the blood stream, to be utilzed in the manner it would have normally been administered by the pancreas.

    Type I Diabetes has known causes. Obesity is a large factor. When the pancreas is damaged and cannot produce either enough insulin or the quality of insulin required to manage the transfer of glucose/fats from one state to another, 'pre-diabetes' can escalate to the diabetic state.

    Diabetes can be largely prevented. Genetic predispositions or not, it is fairly simple to avoid. I did not do the things to avoid it.

    Making a distinction between types I and II is disingenuous as it ignores the fact that diabetes mellitus is a series of related diseases, some non-dependent on insulin yet any can change and become insulin treated...not only that but when I ws placed on insulin and stopped taking pills for it my weight became more stable and easier to gradually reduce.

    I consider insulin a BLESSING after nearly 20 years, 18 on pills.

    However, the problem of very low vitamin D2 levels really bugged me. Sure, 50,000 units of D2 in a capsule once a week might help but between dairy products and eating more foods with D2 I felt this was not only easy to do with changes to my diet and adjustment of my food spending. I will see if that was helpful in addition to all the running around on my bike I've had to do anyway (still to the detriment of housework I set forth to accomplish to clear my home of the clutter I had been so great at getting together over ten years with litle money, something I vowed to do after the hospitalization in July 2012 and complete changover of my prescriptions that had been the reason for the illness--as in I took lithium far too long).

    Whole milk is going to decrease in price this year while beef will become much more expensive supposedly as the beef farmers thinned their herds dramaitcally while dairy producers really could not...the cost of rebuilding a herd would be prohibative. Congress also separated SNAP (formerly called food stamps) from a dairy bill and then they passed a dairy bill actually!

    So we've meandered all over the map asnd actually talked about ALMONDS (why not cranberries as well)?
    Quote Originally Posted by 10 Wheels
    They can't fix expansion joints, because they expand.
    Smile at Miles with a ROLLFAST!

  13. #113
    I STILL miss East Hill :) Rollfast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wesley36 View Post
    lol wow drama much. If you don't agree with me - you're a terrorist!
    Not hardly. I use all my blankets on my bed, not as statements.
    Quote Originally Posted by 10 Wheels
    They can't fix expansion joints, because they expand.
    Smile at Miles with a ROLLFAST!

  14. #114
    Senior Member elcruxio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rollfast View Post
    Bovine insulin in milk would be broken down by the digestive system. That's why it's injected...it needs to go into the blood stream, to be utilzed in the manner it would have normally been administered by the pancreas.

    Type I Diabetes has known causes. Obesity is a large factor. When the pancreas is damaged and cannot produce either enough insulin or the quality of insulin required to manage the transfer of glucose/fats from one state to another, 'pre-diabetes' can escalate to the diabetic state.

    Diabetes can be largely prevented. Genetic predispositions or not, it is fairly simple to avoid. I did not do the things to avoid it.

    Making a distinction between types I and II is disingenuous as it ignores the fact that diabetes mellitus is a series of related diseases, some non-dependent on insulin yet any can change and become insulin treated...not only that but when I ws placed on insulin and stopped taking pills for it my weight became more stable and easier to gradually reduce.

    I consider insulin a BLESSING after nearly 20 years, 18 on pills.

    However, the problem of very low vitamin D2 levels really bugged me. Sure, 50,000 units of D2 in a capsule once a week might help but between dairy products and eating more foods with D2 I felt this was not only easy to do with changes to my diet and adjustment of my food spending. I will see if that was helpful in addition to all the running around on my bike I've had to do anyway (still to the detriment of housework I set forth to accomplish to clear my home of the clutter I had been so great at getting together over ten years with litle money, something I vowed to do after the hospitalization in July 2012 and complete changover of my prescriptions that had been the reason for the illness--as in I took lithium far too long).

    Whole milk is going to decrease in price this year while beef will become much more expensive supposedly as the beef farmers thinned their herds dramaitcally while dairy producers really could not...the cost of rebuilding a herd would be prohibative. Congress also separated SNAP (formerly called food stamps) from a dairy bill and then they passed a dairy bill actually!

    So we've meandered all over the map asnd actually talked about ALMONDS (why not cranberries as well)?
    You are talking about type 2.
    I know that diabetes is a line and you can fall to any point on the line but the ends are type 1 and type 2

    Type 2 is even more geneticly influenced but for many is highly preventable. There also many types of type 2. Some have a super pancreas but even that is not enough. Some have a damaged pancreas etc.

    Type 1 is different. Once your body gets the idea to start an autoimmune reaction againt the islet cells you're gone. There is no going back and no way to prevent it. The only coclusion is insulin treatment or death. It's not even like lose your legs and sight in the long term if left untreated. A type 1 will generally die in 3-5 days from the last injection.

    The type 2 which is on a similiar position (no insulin production at all) is quite rare I find.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by eriku16 View Post
    Sounds like a well versed Paleo follower from the looks of it. I use to work with some individuals that sound exactly the same. Using the same talking points full of fear mongering, pseudo-science and misinformation. I Could not talk any sense to any of them. Paleo is getting more like a religion/cult than some diet.
    Maybe they just feel better

  16. #116
    Senior Member GeorgeBMac's Avatar
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    ... And, here is yet another reason to avoid milk and other dairy products: the link between choline and TMAO...

    http://health.clevelandclinic.org/20...the-gut-video/
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    Choline is a water-soluble essential nutrient.

  18. #118
    Senior Member bmontgomery87's Avatar
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    can this thread die already?

    i seriously doubt anyone is going to start/stop consuming milk based on any of the nonsense we've said

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    Wheelsuck Fat Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmontgomery87 View Post
    can this thread die already?

    i seriously doubt anyone is going to start/stop consuming milk based on any of the nonsense we've said
    I don't think that's really what most stuff in this sub-forum is for. I think it's mostly just to kick back and forth to see what others think. Everyone is going to do what they're going to do. I don't think any of us are necessarily going to change their habits based on an internet thread, but we can all gain a little information here and there.

    The problems arise when people start getting all chapped because someone says something they don't like. You have to realize that opinions will vary and just not be so personally invested in your particular position. If someone says 'Eating X is bad' and you eat X, then that doesn't mean you're a bad person and taking it that way is silly. Most things have good and bad attributes. We should be able to debate the merits of these attributes and acknowledge the compromises without getting butt-hurt.
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    Senior Member bmontgomery87's Avatar
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    I agree Fat Boy.
    I'm definitely not butt hurt. I'm just blown away that this thread made it to 5 pages of back-and-forth about milk haha


    I have rather thick skin so I don't get upset if people don't agree with my eating habits.

  21. #121
    Senior Member GeorgeBMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Boy View Post
    I don't think that's really what most stuff in this sub-forum is for. I think it's mostly just to kick back and forth to see what others think. Everyone is going to do what they're going to do. I don't think any of us are necessarily going to change their habits based on an internet thread, but we can all gain a little information here and there.

    The problems arise when people start getting all chapped because someone says something they don't like. You have to realize that opinions will vary and just not be so personally invested in your particular position. If someone says 'Eating X is bad' and you eat X, then that doesn't mean you're a bad person and taking it that way is silly. Most things have good and bad attributes. We should be able to debate the merits of these attributes and acknowledge the compromises without getting butt-hurt.
    +1
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    Senior Member elcruxio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Boy View Post
    I don't think that's really what most stuff in this sub-forum is for. I think it's mostly just to kick back and forth to see what others think. Everyone is going to do what they're going to do. I don't think any of us are necessarily going to change their habits based on an internet thread, but we can all gain a little information here and there.

    The problems arise when people start getting all chapped because someone says something they don't like. You have to realize that opinions will vary and just not be so personally invested in your particular position. If someone says 'Eating X is bad' and you eat X, then that doesn't mean you're a bad person and taking it that way is silly. Most things have good and bad attributes. We should be able to debate the merits of these attributes and acknowledge the compromises without getting butt-hurt.
    Some of the chapping up is of course about not agreeing with something. I get feel I need to comment on stuff which is either blatantly wrong or not proven by science.
    That's kinda my beef with the whole paleo thing. The people who sell it use fear tactics and pseudo science to sell books. That is BS. There might not even be anything wrong with the whole paleo idea (if only it wasn't an convenient excuse to gorge on meat for so many). But the whole "dairy and grains are bad", or "gluten is bad for the majority" is just fear mongering babble which has no basis on science. Gluten is bad for celiacs or those who have sensitivity for it. aka a very small percentage of people (0.5-6% depending. Still very little). Also there are other grains than wheat (rye, barley, oats etc) not that wheat in itself is bad (or has _any_ harmful substances which would cause a problem with the concentrations found)

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    Maybe avoiding gluten is a knee-jerk approach at eating by me. I honestly have not noticed any big difference since I stopped eating gluten. I don't know that I have any rock-solid reasons for thinking it could be bad for me. I do have some circumstantial things that have lead me to this thought process, though. My mother and my 2 sisters all have autoimmune conditions. One of them has had pancreas issues and 2 have rheumatoid arthritis. Gluten does create an autoimmune response in many people, although you're completely right when you say the science is not settled. Is it related to their conditions? I don't know. I can say that autoimmunity is something that is prevalent in my family, though, so it doesn't seem a large stretch to avoid things that tend to create an autoimmune response. That's my logic, shoot if full of holes if you want.

    My basic dietary approach is to eat food that have as little processing as possible and is as close to 'natural' as possible. I don't go out of my way to eat a raw diet. I cook. This does mean that I tend to avoid pre-packaged foods, though. I also get grass-fed meat/butter and eggs from the farmer's market. I eat a lot of produce vegetables, but I get my fair share of meat as well. I try to eat more protein than most people do. If this means more meat, I'm OK with that as long as the meat is good quality. I eat a lot of fish.

    Corn tortillas are something I don't want me or my tacos to be without, so I eat them. I make bread with a combination of almond and buckwheat flour and I eat that. I have various types of dairy. All of these are processed foods to one extent or another. They don't seem to cause me an issue, so I don't really worry about it. If they did, I'd reconsider.
    Austin doesn't have hippies. They have slightly rebellious Methodists. - Racer Ex

  24. #124
    Senior Member Looigi's Avatar
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    Indeed. We continue to exploit plant and animals by manipulating their genetics either through breeding, crossbreeding, hybridization and even direct molecular intervention. Do they as a species benefit from this? I guess it depends on how you define evolutionary success.
    Ride more. Fret less.

  25. #125
    Senior Member Wesley36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fat Boy View Post
    I don't eat 'Paleo' per say, but I find it pretty difficult to throw stones at the concept. I think people get a bit lost in the name. It isn't an attempt at a historical re-inactment. It's primarily a way to try to eat the most nutrient dense, easily digested foods available.
    In all seriousness, I think the biggest weakness of Paleo is that it is used as an excuse to justify eating lots of steak, rather than Fat Boy's emphasis on eating whole, unprocessed foods. It is not just an emphasis on historical re-enactment to point out that less steak and more insects is probably appropriate. It might be culturally unpalatable, but seriously, insects have been eaten by humans extensively, and many of them are nutrient dense and easily digested.

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