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Old 03-07-14, 08:07 AM   #226
MEversbergII
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For the most part, in terms of weight gain and weight loss, yes cals in/ cals out does work.
But people need to focus on body composition and fat loss, not just weight loss. Therefore you have to start accounting for individual macros and worry about what you're consuming.
Yep. A good way to go about it is to shift bodily caloric demands. This means more muscle. And you have to do proper exercises as well. Traditionally this is running but that's not exactly protein sparing.

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Old 03-07-14, 11:27 AM   #227
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Ok apologies for any equating HFLC = High protein in previous post

Here is another article that may be of interest.....not pro on thing or another, but one guy methodically tried a number of different diets (inlcluding a paleo) with close mecdical surpervison over a year. I think a key take away, is that every one is different, you have to find what works for you. In this case one diet caused such bad medical changes in cholesterol that he had to stop it.

It is an interesting read.

http://www.outsideonline.com/fitness...-vs--Food.html

The authors conclusions for himself : "what did I learn in the end? Lean protein, good fats, healthy carbs. More specifically: modestly sized meals consisting of lots of produce, a bit of lean meat now and then, and grains that haven't been bleached and pulverized into submission. Also, olive oil is good, and snack on nuts and dates.

In broad strokes, that approach works for almost anybody. But broad strokes don't cut it. I also discovered that wheat doesn't cause me problems, that dairy does, and that I should avoid tomatoes. You might be totally different. The Okinawa Program may save your life. The Paleo Diet for Athletes could make you faster. I can't say how you'll react to any single diet.

What I can provide, though, after 12 months alone in the diet-industry wilderness, is a strategy for finding what does work for you—my own take on what is commonly referred to as an elimination diet. You'll have to keep a diary of everything you eat and how it makes you feel, but it won't take a full year—more like two months.
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Old 03-07-14, 03:31 PM   #228
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Btw, can the low carb people do HIIT? How often do you go 95-99% of max HR? One would assume that requires carbs as carbs are the main fuel in high intensity training.
You can do it, you'll just suck. I'd estimate my on the bike power loss at somewhere around 15-20%. Interestingly enough, peak power was about the same, and at one point I actually pushed my 1 minute power up by a couple watts. I will say that before the 1 minute interval day I ate 1/2 a honeydew melon, so there's the sugar. Anything over the lower end of endurance pace pushed HR up significantly. At one point I decided to do a 20 minute test. After 10 minutes, I pulled the plug and at that point I was ~40 watts off of what I would have expected.

So, if you go ketogenic, you have to know that you'll be riding relatively slow (not necessarily a bad thing) and that really trying to push will probably cause a bunch of hormone stuff to happen that will not do you any favors.
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Old 03-15-14, 08:15 PM   #229
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I have been following a LCHF diet for about 3 weeks now. Works really good for now but I never went for a ride on the bike yet. I do however run 30 minute sessions 3 times a week. Never felt the lack of energy.
Fat Head - YouTube
I advice anyone who wants to learn about low carb to watch this documentary. Even if you're not a low-carber, take a look.
I watched the whole thing and I couldn't agree more.
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Old 03-17-14, 07:58 AM   #230
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OK, just for fun and to check in with the "Low Carb/Paleo Weirdos" ......

Today we (Mrs. PolarBear007 and I) are starting a semi-strict Paleo diet to shed weight and in general, clean up our blood stream and physiology. We're both in generally good health (with recent physicals) and no medical concerns that would prohibit our dietary changes.

Back in the day (from late teens to mid-30's), I lifted weights, ran, practiced martial arts, climbed and backpacked. I had a resting pulse that ranged anywhere from 26-34 and body fat in the 7-12% range. At 5' 11" a "normal" body weight was around 205-215lbs (with an honest-to-goodness large bone structure and good "birthing hips"!). Even then my carb intake was minimal though without all the highly specific terms/nomenclature of today. The mantra then was lots of *high-quality* protein and "crunchy" veggies (some fruit as well, but not too much).

Fast forward to today, I'm 48 at ~260lbs and don't know where my resting pulse is (probably in the 80bpm range). Since we have pre-teen children and want them to experience a more adventurous/active life in general, we're taking the initial steps to get our dietary health and fitness back on track. For me, this is forging ahead in a more 'diet-centric' focus whereas in my youth I was more activity-focused.

Since we're making a drastic change to our diet, I'm forgoing my biking for a week to let physiological/blood-chemistry changes start taking place without undue stress to complicate matters. Then, I'll re-start my riding which here in the 'Springs' is *very* hilly and provides for very aerobic rides. There is a river-trail that's pretty flat so maybe I'll do that instead of doing absolutely nothing.

So anyway, PolarBear007 neo-Low-Carb/Paleo weirdo checking in!
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Old 03-17-14, 08:20 AM   #231
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Good Luck Polarbear007. Its exciting that you are making positive life style changes while you are still young - I wish I had done that.

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Old 03-17-14, 09:30 AM   #232
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Good Luck Polarbear007. Its exciting that you are making positive life style changes while you are still young - I wish I had done that.

Charlie
Thanks Charlie -

I don't "feel" young, but feelings LIE!!!
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Old 03-17-14, 09:59 AM   #233
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I met a nutritionist and his partner yesterday at the shop, he and I eat very similarly while his better half is a vegan who also eats LCHF and admits it is much more challenging for her to do this as a vegan.

They also produce hemp oil and implement this into their respective diets along with coconut, olive oil, and avocado.

Nice folks, the conversation was most interesting.
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Old 03-17-14, 11:36 AM   #234
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A way LCHFMP helps you save money!! (if it's true)

"the enzymes used to metabolize alcohol are also needed for processing fatty acids. Because low-carbers are in ketosis, those enzymes are "busy" and not as readily available to metabolize the alcohol - hence, the blood-alcohol level builds up quicker and we get drunk faster."
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Old 03-17-14, 02:03 PM   #235
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Lol = I'll drink to that!

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Old 03-18-14, 02:07 AM   #236
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A way LCHFMP helps you save money!! (if it's true)

"the enzymes used to metabolize alcohol are also needed for processing fatty acids. Because low-carbers are in ketosis, those enzymes are "busy" and not as readily available to metabolize the alcohol - hence, the blood-alcohol level builds up quicker and we get drunk faster."
Well if you happen to be a person who consumes alcohol to get drunk then maybe that is a good thing...
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Old 03-18-14, 08:56 AM   #237
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"We intended to help resolve the existing uncertainties around fatty acids and their potential association with coronary heart disease risk," Dr. Rajiv Chowdhury told Reuters Health in an email.
Chowdhury, from the University of Cambridge in the UK, led the review that was published in the Annals of Internal Medicine.
He and his colleagues collected data from 72 previously published studies of more than 600,000 people from 18 countries.
Those included studies that measured the types of fatty acids people consumed or had in their blood, as well as those that randomly assigned people to take fatty acid supplements or not.
All of the studies followed participants to see who developed heart problems like heart attacks, heart disease or coronary insufficiency.
When Chowdhury and his team analyzed data on fatty acid intake, they found that none of the types of saturated or polyunsaturated fats had a significant impact on heart disease risk.
When the researchers examined markers of fatty acids in the blood, they also found little difference in heart risk based on levels of saturated or polyunsaturated fats. But the results varied for individual fatty acids.
The researchers found that higher blood levels of two forms of omega-3 fatty acids - docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) and eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) - were associated with a lower risk of heart disease.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...A2G1ON20140317

Last edited by CbadRider; 03-19-14 at 09:10 AM. Reason: Copyright violation - all quotes must have a link to the source
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Old 03-18-14, 10:14 AM   #238
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Yep, that just happened...

Annals of Internal Medicine | Association of Dietary, Circulating, and Supplement Fatty Acids With Coronary Risk: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis
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Old 03-19-14, 02:28 AM   #239
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A way LCHFMP helps you save money!! (if it's true)

"the enzymes used to metabolize alcohol are also needed for processing fatty acids. Because low-carbers are in ketosis, those enzymes are "busy" and not as readily available to metabolize the alcohol - hence, the blood-alcohol level builds up quicker and we get drunk faster."
And you think that is a good thing?
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Old 03-19-14, 07:10 AM   #240
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That study was debunked the day it was published.

'Dr Eric B Rimm (Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, MA) said, " We uncovered a serious mistake in their review of PUFA that likely will change the results substantially. ... Moreover, the group's conclusion about saturated fat "has little context, because it likely represents the result of when you exchange saturated fat in your diet for refined grain. Thus, saturated fat is no better or worse than eating white bread. We have known that for decades, so [it] is not new."

Dr Alice H Lichtenstein (Tufts University, Boston, MA) replied by email, "The majority of the evidence suggests that replacing saturated fat with polyunsaturated fat reduces heart disease risk, whereas replacing saturated fat with carbohydrate does not. This new study only assessed one factor, an indicator of dietary fat, and not the whole picture, making the conclusions questionable."

Apparently even the senior author of the study, Di Angelantonio, admitted that it contained "minor mistakes" that need to be corrected. And the study itself listed its own limitations as containing: "Potential biases from preferential publication and selective reporting."
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Old 03-19-14, 07:15 AM   #241
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And you think that is a good thing?
I'm thinking you can't appreciate my sense of humor
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Old 03-19-14, 07:21 AM   #242
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All you have to do is look at Lichtenstein's affiliations and it's obvious that all she will do is mimic the official party line

Vice-chair, 2015 Dietary Guidelines Advisory Committee, U.S. Department of Agriculture / U.S. Department of Health and Human Services
Vice-chair, NHLBI, Adult Treatment Panel [ATP] IV (Cholesterol Guidelines)
Member, NIHLBI, Lifestyle Panel for Cardiovascular Risk Reduction
Member, Committee on the Consequences of Sodium Reduction in Populations, Food and Nutrition Board, National Academy of Sciences
Vice-chair, Examination of Front-of-Package Nutrition Rating Systems and Symbols, Food and Nutrition Board, National Academy of Sciences
Member, Nutrition Committee, American Heart Association
Member, Macronutrient Panel, Dietary Reference Intakes, Food and Nutrition Board, National Academy of Sciences
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Old 03-19-14, 07:40 AM   #243
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'Dr Eric B Rimm (Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, MA) said, " We uncovered a serious mistake in their review of PUFA that likely will change the results substantially. ... Moreover, the group's conclusion about saturated fat "has little context, because it likely represents the result of when you exchange saturated fat in your diet for refined grain. Thus, saturated fat is no better or worse than eating white bread. We have known that for decades, so [it] is not new."





Dr. Rimm
: I think if you look at the science, there is actually no good human data to suggest that higher fat diets lead to obesity. If anything, higher fat diets, at 35 to 40 percent, lead to lower triglycerides because it’s a lower carbohydrate intake.

Now there 's a guy that can talk out of both sides of his mouth


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Old 03-19-14, 07:59 AM   #244
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All you have to do is look at Lichtenstein's affiliations and it's obvious that all she will do is mimic the official party line

Vice-chair, 2015 Dietary Guidelines Advisory Committee, U.S. Department of Agriculture / U.S. Department of Health and Human Services
Vice-chair, NHLBI, Adult Treatment Panel [ATP] IV (Cholesterol Guidelines)
Member, NIHLBI, Lifestyle Panel for Cardiovascular Risk Reduction
Member, Committee on the Consequences of Sodium Reduction in Populations, Food and Nutrition Board, National Academy of Sciences
Vice-chair, Examination of Front-of-Package Nutrition Rating Systems and Symbols, Food and Nutrition Board, National Academy of Sciences
Member, Nutrition Committee, American Heart Association
Member, Macronutrient Panel, Dietary Reference Intakes, Food and Nutrition Board, National Academy of Sciences
Apparently she believes that "official party line". Most physicians and most major health organizations (such as the ones you have listed: USDA, NAS, NHLBI, AHA...) -- do too. That is no basis to criticize her.
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Old 03-19-14, 08:09 AM   #245
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'Dr Eric B Rimm (Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, MA) said, " We uncovered a serious mistake in their review of PUFA that likely will change the results substantially. ... Moreover, the group's conclusion about saturated fat "has little context, because it likely represents the result of when you exchange saturated fat in your diet for refined grain. Thus, saturated fat is no better or worse than eating white bread. We have known that for decades, so [it] is not new."





Dr. Rimm
: I think if you look at the science, there is actually no good human data to suggest that higher fat diets lead to obesity. If anything, higher fat diets, at 35 to 40 percent, lead to lower triglycerides because it’s a lower carbohydrate intake.

Now there 's a guy that can talk out of both sides of his mouth


In one quote he is speaking of heart disease. In the one you site he is speaking of obesity. He didn't 'talk out of both sides of his mouth'. They are two different subjects. People often confuse the two when the topic of diets come up.

Obesity can often promote heart disease through indirect means but it is not heart disease. Nor is it a prerequisite for heart disease. Some thin people have heart attacks and some fat ones don't...
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Old 03-19-14, 08:12 AM   #246
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It's normal to have "experts" on every side of a debatable subject - refuting one another's research findings/methodology. No problem. I hope the Mod's keep those discussions out of this thread.

It's additionally frustrating when research errors are made and admitted to by the initial researcher while other researchers attempt to draw corollary conclusions from the same data set. Conclusions made (by the initial researcher or others) after acknowledging a flawed initial data set (flawed in procurement methodology or otherwise) amount to pridefulness and attempts at saving/salvaging reputation (which is often related to personal income).

I think (and believe the results of) this paleo/low-carb "diet/lifestyle" makes sense. The human body is an amazing machine and highly adaptable, but does have limitations. I'm willing to invest time to make the changes and personally examine the results. Then, I'll have the results/consequences evaluated by non-discriminating, empirical tests and if anything is or has begun to be unhealthy, I'll adjust my dietary course/intake. It's just that simple.

All the hyperbole and inciteful cross-examination by those with differing opinions simply is an irritating distraction.
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Old 03-19-14, 08:58 AM   #247
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The mod stated and supports the view, that this is thread about a certain way of eating, and that those who support or are interested in it can discuss it freely, without the imposition of outright contrary opinion.

We try to do that. Doesn't always work, and I'm sorry if the dialog doesn't meet your standards.

I am encouraged that you are willing to examine the potential of LCHF and look forward to hearing about your approach and results...
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Old 03-19-14, 09:45 AM   #248
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Poor, George. Sorry that study doesn't fit in with your narrative.
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Old 03-19-14, 09:54 AM   #249
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It's normal to have "experts" on every side of a debatable subject - refuting one another's research findings/methodology. No problem. I hope the Mod's keep those discussions out of this thread.

It's additionally frustrating when research errors are made and admitted to by the initial researcher while other researchers attempt to draw corollary conclusions from the same data set. Conclusions made (by the initial researcher or others) after acknowledging a flawed initial data set (flawed in procurement methodology or otherwise) amount to pridefulness and attempts at saving/salvaging reputation (which is often related to personal income).

I think (and believe the results of) this paleo/low-carb "diet/lifestyle" makes sense. The human body is an amazing machine and highly adaptable, but does have limitations. I'm willing to invest time to make the changes and personally examine the results. Then, I'll have the results/consequences evaluated by non-discriminating, empirical tests and if anything is or has begun to be unhealthy, I'll adjust my dietary course/intake. It's just that simple.

All the hyperbole and inciteful cross-examination by those with differing opinions simply is an irritating distraction.
I am no expert (despite assertions by others that I am) but have followed the same approach in that the empirical data and testing backs up what I have always believed and have been able to see what many hundred of people have experienced when they have made changes in their diet to eliminate modern processed foods, grains, and excess sugars and introduce more fats in their diet.

My background leads me to be one of those people who will research everything and I can understand the numbers and processes and I also get to live in this body which appears to be working great and I need all the help I can get there.
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Old 03-19-14, 10:41 AM   #250
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Poor, George. Sorry that study doesn't fit in with your narrative.
No, not at all... In fact, this was my response to that study on another forum (a medical one):

Well good! Let the discussion begin!

And, hopefully both camps will eventually start breaking away from their ideologies and start to examine the actual evidence - ALL of it, not just the parts that support their ideologies.
... Enough of the grade school level: "I'm right and You're wrong!".

I strongly suspect that both sides are a little bit right as well as a little bit wrong!

... The winners of this long delayed discussion will be the patients



Despite accusations to the contrary, I am not pushing one diet over another... If a person believes the Paleo/Atkins/LCHF arguments -- or simply wants to eat that way for their own personal reasons, I am fine with that.

But I am pushing for openness and honesty in research and how that research is reported. When I read in that study: "The evidence does not support..." -- when there is 20, 30, 40 years of evidence that does, then something is wrong and that statement needs to be challenged. That is not about how a person chooses to eat. But it does have to do with misrepresenting facts. If that offends somebody, I am sorry.

As I said above: I don't think anybody has a lock on 'the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth' at this point.

The link to the study was posted on this thread and I posted some bonified arguments against its accuracy. That was my point and it was made.

Again, if you want to eat green eggs and ham -- I say Go For It! (But don't try to tell others that their diet is wrong.)

The ops said that this thread was to discuss Paleo/LCHF eating. They did not say it was about (unchallenged) attacks on other diets.
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