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Old 03-28-14, 11:16 AM   #276
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I read his misplaced criticism of Paleo. He is really coming down on the food industry. I agree with him that procurring meat on a Paleo diet isn't easy. I shoot mine. I suspect others do, too. I wonder why he assumes Paleos even shop at supermarkets.
You know, my biggest gripe with paleo and keto is the absolutely excessive meat consumption. People start paleo and believe they can stuff down several kilos of meat a week and think it's good for you. It's not. Nor is it good for the environment. It's actually bad all around.

Also the whole "don't eat stuff because it's the fashion right now" like gluten, dairy etc. drives me on the edge.

More veggies with more variety and cuttin unnecessary carbs is usually a good thing. Then again necessary carbs is usually over 100 grams a day. After that eat what you burn during activity/exercise
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Old 03-28-14, 11:25 AM   #277
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Go gripe somewhere else

We've heard it all already
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Old 03-28-14, 02:50 PM   #278
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Go gripe somewhere else

We've heard it all already
I think that what you miss is that if all there is in thread like this is one opinion....a new person could come on board and make choices without full information.

If you are so sure that paleo or HFLC is so great you should welcome opposing views. It just sounds like you don't want to hear opposing views.

Personally I am skeptical of any 'diet" that is extreme one way or the other. I also think that there are good things in many diets that push a relative extreme.

I also think that in many cases what works for one person will not work for another....we are not identical little legos.

the scientfic community by no means is 100% on the validty of the paleo theory, which is not to say that some aspects are not good valid ideas.

so here is a bit of counter point to the idea that the Paleo diet truly reflects what our ancestors ate, using 4 current paleo tribes.

How to Really Eat Like a Hunter-Gatherer: Why the Paleo Diet Is Half-Baked [Interactive & Infographic] - Scientific American
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Old 03-28-14, 03:34 PM   #279
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there are numerous supporters who have made themselves known in this thread with varying opinions and degrees of enthusiasm... but the common denominator is that they see potential value or have experienced positive effects from this WOE

it's silly to believe that anyone going to get all their info from some thread on some forum

drive by attacks do nothing to improve the quality of the dialog on this topic...total waste of time and effort to rehash all of this stuff again with someone who feels a need to rant and has no interest trying to understand what this WOE has meant to our lives.

the harder people try and prove something wrong the more likely it is right.... .IMHO

I thing they call it defending the status quo









I
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Old 03-28-14, 03:41 PM   #280
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You know, my biggest gripe with paleo and keto is the absolutely excessive meat consumption. People start paleo and believe they can stuff down several kilos of meat a week and think it's good for you. It's not. Nor is it good for the environment. It's actually bad all around.

Also the whole "don't eat stuff because it's the fashion right now" like gluten, dairy etc. drives me on the edge.

More veggies with more variety and cutting unnecessary carbs is usually a good thing. Then again necessary carbs is usually over 100 grams a day. After that eat what you burn during activity/exercise
I have run into vegetarians and vegans that think this a lifestyle for meat eaters... which is wrong. We know many vegetarians and vegans who have adopted a higher fat diet because many of them were too reliant on carbs for their energy and were conned into thinking that fat = bad.

We don't eat gluten because my wife is a celiac and I can't tolerate much in the way of glutenous foods anymore.

I also agree the eliminating all the processed foods and extra sugars found in the western diet can only be good for a person and know that we don't need to eat as many carbs as food guides suggest.
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Old 03-28-14, 03:42 PM   #281
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Go gripe somewhere else

We've heard it all already
More of your hilarious sense of humour.

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Old 03-28-14, 03:48 PM   #282
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I think that what you miss is that if all there is in thread like this is one opinion....a new person could come on board and make choices without full information.

If you are so sure that paleo or HFLC is so great you should welcome opposing views. It just sounds like you don't want to hear opposing views.

Personally I am skeptical of any 'diet" that is extreme one way or the other. I also think that there are good things in many diets that push a relative extreme.

I also think that in many cases what works for one person will not work for another....we are not identical little legos.

the scientfic community by no means is 100% on the validty of the paleo theory, which is not to say that some aspects are not good valid ideas.

so here is a bit of counter point to the idea that the Paleo diet truly reflects what our ancestors ate, using 4 current paleo tribes.

How to Really Eat Like a Hunter-Gatherer: Why the Paleo Diet Is Half-Baked [Interactive & Infographic] - Scientific American
This sums it up nicely. Every fad diet has had its critics, and eventually, they have been right. It's the long-term effects that are unknown in the case examples provided in this thread. Already we know that cycling performance is affected. Physiologically, I suspect there are other functions that are being affected without the adherents being aware right now.

The trouble is, its the pseudo-scientific community which agrees 100% on the paleo theory. It produces fundamentalists who dismiss others' concerns and claims. I am sure the recent "research" studies have created an even more comfortable smugness.
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Old 03-28-14, 04:24 PM   #283
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I read his misplaced criticism of Paleo. He is really coming down on the food industry. I agree with him that procurring meat on a Paleo diet isn't easy. I shoot mine. I suspect others do, too. I wonder why he assumes Paleos even shop at supermarkets.
Paleo?



Paleo. IMO:


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Old 03-28-14, 05:06 PM   #284
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My brother started bow hunting when he thought the animals needed a better chance... he works as a hunting guide and for most of his life has only eaten the wild game and fish he hunts and fishes for with more of that being fish as he used to do that commercially as well.

He is in his mid fifties now and says the guys who come to hunt are half his age and can't keep up with him in the bush.
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Old 03-28-14, 05:16 PM   #285
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there are numerous supporters who have made themselves known in this thread with varying opinions and degrees of enthusiasm... but the common denominator is that they see potential value or have experienced positive effects from this WOE

it's silly to believe that anyone going to get all their info from some thread on some forum

drive by attacks do nothing to improve the quality of the dialog on this topic...total waste of time and effort to rehash all of this stuff again with someone who feels a need to rant and has no interest trying to understand what this WOE has meant to our lives.

the harder people try and prove something wrong the more likely it is right.... .IMHO

I think they call it defending the status quo

I
I did call them Paleo "weirdos" and only did that because I recognize that very few people can actually pull that off but the theory behind it is solid... whatever direction your appetite takes you can eat a diet that is more ancestral which, by it's nature will eliminate a lot of less than healthy foods.

We are going to differ on what is healthy and what is not and for some that will be experiential... dairy intolerance is much more common in non western societies and celiac disease and issues with grains afflict more in the west where these foods have been consumed to a much higher degree.

We eat a high calorie diet with no restrictions and my wife is almost as her goal weight, some thyroid (medication) issues have slowed that down, and I am sitting here at my race weight and have not been racing.
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Old 03-29-14, 07:30 AM   #286
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We don't know the long term effects?

That's what the critics of HFLC are reduced to complaining about?

Game over
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Old 03-30-14, 09:35 AM   #287
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I think that what you miss is that if all there is in thread like this is one opinion....a new person could come on board and make choices without full information.

If you are so sure that paleo or HFLC is so great you should welcome opposing views. It just sounds like you don't want to hear opposing views.

Personally I am skeptical of any 'diet" that is extreme one way or the other. I also think that there are good things in many diets that push a relative extreme.

I also think that in many cases what works for one person will not work for another....we are not identical little legos.

the scientific community by no means is 100% on the validty of the paleo theory, which is not to say that some aspects are not good valid ideas.

so here is a bit of counter point to the idea that the Paleo diet truly reflects what our ancestors ate, using 4 current paleo tribes.

How to Really Eat Like a Hunter-Gatherer: Why the Paleo Diet Is Half-Baked [Interactive & Infographic] - Scientific American

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Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
This sums it up nicely. Every fad diet has had its critics, and eventually, they have been right. It's the long-term effects that are unknown in the case examples provided in this thread. Already we know that cycling performance is affected. Physiologically, I suspect there are other functions that are being affected without the adherents being aware right now.

The trouble is, its the pseudo-scientific community which agrees 100% on the paleo theory. It produces fundamentalists who dismiss others' concerns and claims. I am sure the recent "research" studies have created an even more comfortable smugness.
These fad diets all rely on two main things to "prove" their validity:
1) "Reductionism" -- meaning using a small, isolated fact to prove a wider truth while ignoring (or discrediting) the wider body of evidence.
2) Basing most of their health claims on short term weight loss -- mostly from water loss and reduced calories -- while ignoring probable long term adverse effects on health through the promotion of cancers and heart disease.

I agree with Squirtdad and Rowen that presenting these fad diets as uncontested, proven fact misrepresents the real truth and could well convince a person who is not well versed in the evidence that these diets are in fact healthy.

Yes, there is a lot of controversy over healthy diets. And, it is good to discuss things because: NO ONE has a lock on the complete truth and, it is not good to suppress those facts and those opinions you disagree with or don't like.
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Old 03-30-14, 10:48 AM   #288
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If you're interested my success and how my specific WOE may improve the quality of your life or someone else is in a similar situation, I'll be happy to discuss how it came together for me and so will others.

Why do you feel compelled to turn it into a debate? It's OK, couple of paragraphs in a forum aren't going to bring about anyone's demise.
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Old 03-30-14, 02:49 PM   #289
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I am not aware of any Paleo approaches that advocate downing kilos of meat per week...but I am far from an expert on this topic......a Noob really.....BUT..that would be 3/4 of a pound or more per day....ridiculous. Today, I had an argula salad, red beets, snap peas, goat cheese, red pepper, shredded cabbage, with one sardine in my only meal today. Dressed with Fish oil and Extra Virgin olive oil with a touch of 30 year old balsamic vinegar. Did not ride today due to pouring rain but did walk 8 miles. I am hoping that some good fish is on the menu tonight but the Chef has a killer Confit du Canard. I can taste the duck fat now.

Since the first of the year, I have lost 36 pounds and almost 5 inches on my waist.....I hope to lose about another 30 by mid July. The Paleo diet is largely responsible......
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Old 03-30-14, 03:28 PM   #290
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If you're interested my success and how my specific WOE may improve the quality of your life or someone else is in a similar situation, I'll be happy to discuss how it came together for me and so will others.

Why do you feel compelled to turn it into a debate? It's OK, couple of paragraphs in a forum aren't going to bring about anyone's demise.
This is a movement that has been growing for decades and now there are tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people who have adopted this way of eating... the "weirdos" here are just a small handful of people that can sit here and say that it does have great benefits.

I see it as a more ancestral way of eating where things are made from scratch and where your foods are raised and grown as they used to be, sustainably and ethically.

I spent the day with my aunt yesterday and she is soon to be 84 years old, she says she does not feel old and the only medication she takes is synthroid to treat a hypo-active thyroid and she has been taking this since her 40's when the condition became debilitating, proper supplementation restored her health quite quickly. She said her doctor told her he wished that everyone was as healthy as she is now, she is truly remarkable although there are many like her who continue to live active and healthy lives well into their eighties and nineties.

She said the dances she goes to every week are not like they used to be as many of the men have passed away... this is just how it is everywhere.

She has spent her life on the farm and for over 60 years was up before dawn every day and worked long after everyone else had gone to bed to prepare for the next.. she said no-one could ever get fat in their house regardless of how much they ate because you worked too damn hard... farming is hard work.

They raised their own beef, pork, and chicken and had a small commercial dairy and had so much extra cream she started selling her extra butter and remember how she would make home-made ice cream.

A lot of wild meat also made it to the table as the land is full of deer and without hunting they'd over-run things and high fences still protect the garden areas from their pillaging.

They have excellent land with good water and this makes good beef, now they rent it out as my aunt says although she could still run that mile to bring in the cows she just doesn't want to and that rental income keeps her comfortable. She used to walk to the country store which is a mile through the bush on a well worn path... it was also the post office until it finally closed down some years ago as most people just drive to town which is 15 miles away.

She keeps a big garden and they do raise enough beef to keep everyone's freezer full, she misses the dairy only because of the butter and cream and they used to keep their own bees as well.

I hook her up with good local honey.



In some respects it was a very hard life but in others it has been a very good life full of hard work, fresh air, and food that came from your own land and at your own hands.
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Old 03-30-14, 04:07 PM   #291
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All of my eating includes some of the following:

Fatty fresh meat, chicken thighs and legs with skin, turkey dark meat, some cured meat, fatty fish, dairy, cheese, eggs, nuts and seeds, non starchy and leafy veggies


Coconut oil and butter and a bit of olive oil

No grain of any kind. No sugar of any kind, or sugar substitutes.

No veggies oils

No starchy root veggies

No fast food, no junk food, no convenience food
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Old 03-30-14, 04:52 PM   #292
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All of my eating includes some of the following:

Fatty fresh meat, chicken thighs and legs with skin, turkey dark meat, some cured meat, fatty fish, dairy, cheese, eggs, nuts and seeds, non starchy and leafy veggies


Coconut oil and butter and a bit of olive oil

No grain of any kind. No sugar of any kind, or sugar substitutes.

No veggies oils

No starchy root veggies

No fast food, no junk food, no convenience food
Sounds pretty close to what we eat although I have a spoonful of local honey fairly regularly, we have bacon once a week, eat a fair amount of organ meat like liver, and use lard for a number of dishes.

We also indulge in a little really dark chocolate from time to time and have the odd drink of alcohol.
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Old 03-30-14, 06:26 PM   #293
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Tonight we are having souvlakis, greek salad, roasted potatoes, rice, home made buns (with butter), and strawberries and whipped cream for dessert... the carbs are on the menu because we have guests and the whipped cream will have no sugar added.

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Old 03-31-14, 11:16 AM   #294
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Sugar
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Old 03-31-14, 07:32 PM   #295
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scary stuff
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Old 04-01-14, 08:59 AM   #296
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How do you sustain energy levels on low carbs. I was low carb years ago, and had no fuel for endurance type or HIIT workouts. Carbs are the main source of fuel, so I am wondering how you all do it.
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Old 04-01-14, 10:14 AM   #297
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It would be helpful if you went into more detail about your diet at the time, and how long you followed it.

There is general agreement that even when fully keto-adapted, there is no anaerobic advantage.

"Keto-adaptation is the process of shifting your metabolism from relying mostly on glucose for fuel, to relying mostly on fat-based sources of fuel. Not only does fat oxidation itself increase, but your body starts producing enough ketones that they can be used as a significant source of fuel as well"
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Old 04-01-14, 10:16 AM   #298
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They don't... they sit around all day on this forum... When they hope on their bikes, they diesel along at a Z1 pace. Watch out for the BS anecdotes! <-note!

The reality for Keto/<100CHO is that your 70% effort will become your new 100%. Do a couple of quick sprints and your done for the day. If you are serious about performance, don't even think about these fad diets. Just eat a proper well balanced diet to fuel you on and off the bike.
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Old 04-01-14, 10:31 AM   #299
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There's your scientific proof right there
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Old 04-01-14, 10:44 AM   #300
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How do you sustain energy levels on low carbs. I was low carb years ago, and had no fuel for endurance type or HIIT workouts. Carbs are the main source of fuel, so I am wondering how you all do it.
Medium chain triglycerides, as found in coconut oil... they provide nearly instant energy and don't cause the dreaded bonk.

If you go low carb and low fat then you are going to be calorie deficient... this is what many traditional diets do and you end up burning protein and muscle which is really not efficient.

LCHF is good for endurance while high output aerobic activity like sprinting might require some adjustments as it is not what we are designed for.
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