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  1. #51
    Senior Member wolfchild's Avatar
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    The thing is that if a person is getting enough protein from real whole foods, then there is no need to supplement with protein powders. Bodybuilding and fitness magazines are the worst offenders for promoting protein supplements, they have to promote them because they are sponsored by nutritional supplement companies. This whole idea of post-workout protein shake has become a dogma and there are thousands of opinions about it. But is it really necessary ??.. Old school bodybuilders from 1940's, 50's and 60's didn't have fast digesting whey protein supplements and they build some amazing strong athletic bodies. Those guys had real strength. They got all their protein from meat, milk cheese, eggs and fish. Notice that all of these whole foods are slow digesting protein, and not fast absorbing protein like whey powders. People are always looking for some miracle pill or powder to give them fast results and increase their performance. It's doesn't work that way because human body is meant to live on real whole foods and not isolated nutrients.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Dave Cutter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
    ....... People are always looking for some miracle pill or powder to give them fast results and increase their performance. It's doesn't work that way because human body is meant to live on real whole foods and not isolated nutrients.
    +1. Although.... in my long experience I've rarely met a person who actually separated the pills and powders. For most... they have no mechanism to distinguish between pills and powders. No one ingests ether... to become healthy. So first and foremost there is a goal outside of a healthy body.

  3. #53
    Senior Member late's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post

    Old school bodybuilders from 1940's, 50's and 60's
    Actually, the bodybuilder supplement biz got rolling in the 60s.
    You see a lot of arguments about fast v slow. If that's a concern, you
    can always do a blend, like casein and whey. Cheap casein can get nasty,
    you don't want the stuff from Eastern Europe.

    Protein powder isn't the devil and it ain't a saving angel, it's a convenience.. and if
    you don't want it, don't use it. Btw, old school bulking is very out of fashion.
    Your friendly, local, minor god of information.

  4. #54
    Senior Member wolfchild's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by late View Post
    You see a lot of arguments about fast v slow. If that's a concern, you
    can always do a blend, like casein and whey.
    Plain milk is 20% whey and 80% casein and that's what I use as my post-workout drink, no need to buy two separate powders and mix them together.

    Quote Originally Posted by late View Post
    Cheap casein can get nasty,
    you don't want the stuff from Eastern Europe.
    The manufacturing process is nasty for most, if not all, protein supplements or any other supplements. It makes no difference if it's made in USA or Eastern Europe. And how do you know where all the ingredients in protein powders came from ?? The manufacturers don't tell you where they source the ingredients.

    Quote Originally Posted by late16499695
    Protein powder isn't the devil and it ain't a saving angel, it's a convenience.. and if
    you don't want it, don't use it. Btw, old school bulking is very out of fashion.
    Bulking up and building big muscles is not a priority for most cyclists, actually most cyclists especially the competitive types are trying to find ways to loose few extra pounds. The point I was trying to make was that, even if you workout in a gym and ride your bike, it's still easy to get your daily protein requirements from real food.

  5. #55
    Senior Member late's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post

    It makes no difference if it's made in USA or Eastern Europe.
    Incorrect.
    Your friendly, local, minor god of information.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    You have that backwards!!!!!!! YOU are stigmatizing. YOU want to pick the "correct" powder. YOUR powder is good.... that other guys performance enhancer is BAD?!?!? I don't see the difference.... because there isn't one. I am just willing to be honest about it. How do you know.... where to draw the line? Which powder is the "wrong" powder?

    I don't care what others take or put in their bodies. But food by products.... don't magically turn into real food.... just because you "call it" food. Bending words around and rationalizing is common behavior. Taking your powders or whatever your doing.... isn't any of my business.

    Yeah.... and when I was in the Army they had special pills that kept us awake at night too. A great thing to have around..... if your life depends on your performance.

    I am sorry but I think most people who eat powder are ether nursing a new eating disorder... or already have one. I advocate eating healthy foods. You know.... that stuff called meals. If that sounds odd to you.... maybe you should think about that.
    What healthy real foods are you talking about?
    Those grown in fields with soil so poor tons of fertilizer has to be applied?
    The product, that is what the producers call it, that is manufactured by blending chemicals and sold in supermarkets?
    Or, "food" that is produced by artificially mixing genes to the plant is more resistant to herbicides and other chemicals?
    The "meat" that comes from feeding animals special diets designed to artificially make them grow?
    Farmed fish that are grown in conditions that result is high disease rates and frequent recalls for problems?
    etc. etc.

    The idea of "real food" is actually either a political statement, or produced by lack of current information.

  7. #57
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
    The thing is that if a person is getting enough protein from real whole foods, then there is no need to supplement with protein powders. Bodybuilding and fitness magazines are the worst offenders for promoting protein supplements, they have to promote them because they are sponsored by nutritional supplement companies. This whole idea of post-workout protein shake has become a dogma and there are thousands of opinions about it. But is it really necessary ??.. Old school bodybuilders from 1940's, 50's and 60's didn't have fast digesting whey protein supplements and they build some amazing strong athletic bodies. Those guys had real strength. They got all their protein from meat, milk cheese, eggs and fish. Notice that all of these whole foods are slow digesting protein, and not fast absorbing protein like whey powders. People are always looking for some miracle pill or powder to give them fast results and increase their performance. It's doesn't work that way because human body is meant to live on real whole foods and not isolated nutrients.
    That's right, you are young, so there are a lot of things you don't remember and didn't participate in. Joe Weider founded Weider Nutrition in 1936. He created Tiger's Milk. His company made and advertised heavily every sort of supplement you can imagine. He was really into megadoses of Vitamin E in the form of wheat germ oil. I can remember reading Muscle Builder in the early 60's. I also read Strength and Health. He inspired me to start lifting. His sponsored bodybuilders made great use of his products. I remember a discussion in his mag about being sure you got 200g of protein supplements every day. He was quite the character, lived to 93, just died last year. He and his brother invented the bodybuilding industry.

    Yup, he and his athletes were always looking for miracle pills and powders, liquids too, so Joe invented them and got rich selling them. They got fast results and improved their performance. It worked exactly that way and it still does. It's simply BS that they ate all natural foods. You sure couldn't say that Joe wasn't healthy, either!

    The human body is a chemical factory which runs on chemicals, what else. Most of what we do when we train consists of training our chemical factory to emphasize certain chemical reactions and make them faster.

    Just correcting some of the record.

  8. #58
    Senior Member bmontgomery87's Avatar
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    Some good info in here already. I've spent months and months taking protein powders and supplements and I've spent months just eating appropriately. Honestly, there isn't a drastic difference.
    If you have a hard time getting enough protein in, a powder might be a good way to supplement your diet. I, for example, had a hard time eating enough after hard workouts, but it was easy for me to drink a protein shake with milk to get my calories in. I will say that when your protein levels are right, recovery is improved.

    Pay attention to the label before you buy. Lots of powders are loaded with junk ingredients and artificial sweeteners.

  9. #59
    Senior Member Dave Cutter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HawkOwl View Post
    ...... The idea of "real food" is actually either a political statement, or produced by lack of current information.
    I can tell you have absolutely no connection with food production. Your ideas.... although oddly popular... have nothing to do with the reality of the food supply.

  10. #60
    Senior Member Dave Cutter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    ........... Joe Weider founded Weider Nutrition in 1936. He created Tiger's Milk. His company made and advertised heavily every sort of supplement you can imagine.....
    Yup, he and his athletes were always looking for miracle pills and powders, liquids too, so Joe invented them and got rich selling them. ....
    The human body is a chemical factory which runs on chemicals, what else. Most of what we do when we train consists of training our chemical factory to emphasize certain chemical reactions and make them faster.
    I agree with most every word you posted.... except I really don't think Joe "invented" the steroids and hormone "pills" you mentioned.... much of that side of the industry remained.... less advertised.

    But I do agree that the attitude was... and likely remains... that chemicals are chemicals... pills, powders, what's the difference. Results are always measurable... never philosophical.

    Cycling has always shared in the very same attitude! Whatever it takes... performance at any (and all) costs.

  11. #61
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    I agree with most every word you posted.... except I really don't think Joe "invented" the steroids and hormone "pills" you mentioned.... much of that side of the industry remained.... less advertised.

    But I do agree that the attitude was... and likely remains... that chemicals are chemicals... pills, powders, what's the difference. Results are always measurable... never philosophical.

    Cycling has always shared in the very same attitude! Whatever it takes... performance at any (and all) costs.
    Nor, AFAIK, did Joe participate in the steriod, etc., market. I see what you're doing here, but it's a mistake to conflate the PED market with the nutritional market. One might as well argue that broccoli, with it's high vitamin and protein content, is a PED. Improving one's performance is a health goal. One can get lower bodyfat, better blood lipids, stronger bones, improved mental acuity, and a host of other benefits from training and eating to improve performance. All we need do is look around at the posters here who've made changes in these areas and improved their health. Joe made a lot of money from perceiving and publicizing what have now become accepted facts.

  12. #62
    Senior Member Dave Cutter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    .... I see what you're doing here, but it's a mistake to conflate the PED market with the nutritional market.
    I am NOT doing that. I have asked what's the difference? For users of powders, pills, chemicals... for those that measure only results.... what is the difference between this powder.... and that other powder. What is it for chemical users... that make that chemical different than... that other chemical.

    Is it the "government" that draws your lines and spells out your thoughts of what is right and wrong... good and/or bad. Who is the food tester.... for non-food eaters?

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    I can tell you have absolutely no connection with food production. Your ideas.... although oddly popular... have nothing to do with the reality of the food supply.
    Wow! You can tell all that from my post? I sincerely hope whatever you do for a living does not require much insight and comprehension ability.

    Fact is the idea of "real food" as you describe it and applied to actual food production passed a couple generations, or more ago. As I mentioned before today large amounts of fertilizer and herbicides are used routinely in agriculture. Animals are routinely raised for maximum profit, not nutrition. There is a thriving Artificial Flavor industry to give the "product", that is what we call food is called by the manufacturers, good taste and to make the customer want to buy more.

    Thanks to radicals real food is slowly making inroads in the grocery stores. But, it is expensive to produce, transport and sell.

    So, back to the protein shake question that started this discussion. Yes, they are a good idea to boost protein without adding a lot of calories. Read the label and choose the product you know meets your needs.

  14. #64
    Senior Member Dave Cutter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HawkOwl View Post
    Wow! You can tell all that from my post?
    Yep.

    Quote Originally Posted by HawkOwl View Post
    Fact is the idea of "real food" as you describe it and applied to actual food production passed a couple generations, or more ago. As I mentioned before today large amounts of fertilizer and herbicides are used routinely in agriculture. Animals are routinely raised for maximum profit, not nutrition. There is a thriving Artificial Flavor industry to give the "product", that is what we call food is called by the manufacturers, good taste and to make the customer want to buy more.
    Not on this planet.... not in this lifetime.

  15. #65
    Senior Member bmontgomery87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    I am NOT doing that. I have asked what's the difference? For users of powders, pills, chemicals... for those that measure only results.... what is the difference between this powder.... and that other powder. What is it for chemical users... that make that chemical different than... that other chemical.

    Is it the "government" that draws your lines and spells out your thoughts of what is right and wrong... good and/or bad. Who is the food tester.... for non-food eaters?
    I'm not sure if I'm on exactly the same page, but are you asking why people will take x but not take y?
    Most people don't see chemicals as chemicals. Just because someone takes a relatively safe PED like test doesn't mean they're open to take clen or insulin. People draw lines based on experience, studies, and what they've learned from others.

    I'll gladly take protein powder, creatine, and stimulants. Doesn't mean I'm open to all supplements.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by HawkOwl View Post
    Wow! You can tell all that from my post? I sincerely hope whatever you do for a living does not require much insight and comprehension ability.

    Fact is the idea of "real food" as you describe it and applied to actual food production passed a couple generations, or more ago. As I mentioned before today large amounts of fertilizer and herbicides are used routinely in agriculture. Animals are routinely raised for maximum profit, not nutrition. There is a thriving Artificial Flavor industry to give the "product", that is what we call food is called by the manufacturers, good taste and to make the customer want to buy more.

    Thanks to radicals real food is slowly making inroads in the grocery stores. But, it is expensive to produce, transport and sell.

    So, back to the protein shake question that started this discussion. Yes, they are a good idea to boost protein without adding a lot of calories. Read the label and choose the product you know meets your needs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    Yep.



    Not on this planet.... not in this lifetime.
    Really? You are saying bulk herbicides and fertilizer are not used in food production?

  17. #67
    Senior Member bmontgomery87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HawkOwl View Post
    Really? You are saying bulk herbicides and fertilizer are not used in food production?
    depends where you get your food.

    A lot of people grow their own or buy locally, so I'd say they're much better off.

  18. #68
    Senior Member GeorgeBMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmontgomery87 View Post
    depends where you get your food.

    A lot of people grow their own or buy locally, so I'd say they're much better off.
    I do grow some of my own food (by helping a friend in her community garden). We also share in a CSA...

    But I do not understand the idea that buying locally does any more than insure fresher produce that is more likely to be harvested when ripe -- as well as less likely to be a hybrid developed for shipping efficiency rather than taste and nutrition.

    That is, a local grower is no less likely to use GMO's, pesticides and other chemicals than non-local growers...
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  19. #69
    Senior Member MEversbergII's Avatar
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    The key is self-investigation.

    M.

  20. #70
    Senior Member bmontgomery87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
    But I do not understand the idea that buying locally does any more than insure fresher produce that is more likely to be harvested when ripe -- as well as less likely to be a hybrid developed for shipping efficiency rather than taste and nutrition.

    That is, a local grower is no less likely to use GMO's, pesticides and other chemicals than non-local growers...
    I guess it depends where you're from and what not.
    Our local farmer's market is pretty small and about 2 miles from my house.
    I talk to the farmers, I know what kind of chickens produce the eggs I'm eating, and I can talk to the gardeners about what they use on their plants or if they're organic.

    I agree that you can't eliminate stuff 100% of the time, unless you're growing your own food. But I feel like people who make smart options locally can at least have a better idea of what they're consuming. For some people "local" would be the mega-farm that uses GMOs and pesticides and the farmer owns 2000 heads of cattle. But where I'm from it's not really like that.

  21. #71
    Senior Member GeorgeBMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmontgomery87 View Post
    I guess it depends where you're from and what not.
    Our local farmer's market is pretty small and about 2 miles from my house.
    I talk to the farmers, I know what kind of chickens produce the eggs I'm eating, and I can talk to the gardeners about what they use on their plants or if they're organic.

    I agree that you can't eliminate stuff 100% of the time, unless you're growing your own food. But I feel like people who make smart options locally can at least have a better idea of what they're consuming. For some people "local" would be the mega-farm that uses GMOs and pesticides and the farmer owns 2000 heads of cattle. But where I'm from it's not really like that.
    Yes, here around Pittsburgh the local farms may not fall in the 'mega' category -- but many (at least the biggest, most popular ones) operate like they are... Their main selling point is that it is fresh. But both of the biggest ones bring stuff in from all over to supplement their own stuff -- so you really don't know if you are buying local or not.
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  22. #72
    Senior Member wolfchild's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HawkOwl View Post
    Fact is the idea of "real food" as you describe it and applied to actual food production passed a couple generations, or more ago. As I mentioned before today large amounts of fertilizer and herbicides are used routinely in agriculture. Animals are routinely raised for maximum profit, not nutrition. There is a thriving Artificial Flavor industry to give the "product", that is what we call food is called by the manufacturers, good taste and to make the customer want to buy more.
    So what's your point ??..What's your solution to a balanced diet and protein intake ??..Should we all stop eating "real food" and start popping amino acid pills, and living on meal replacement candy bars and protein powders ??

  23. #73
    Senior Member MEversbergII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
    So what's your point ??..What's your solution to a balanced diet and protein intake ??..Should we all stop eating "real food" and start popping amino acid pills, and living on meal replacement candy bars and protein powders ??
    I don't think so. Real food is way more preferable. It reminds us of who we are, I think. At least, it reminds me of such.

    Protein powder is just a meal replacement when, for whatever reason, I haven't gotten enough protein. Or if I want a shake. Sometimes I want shakes.

    M.

  24. #74
    Senior Member robabeatle's Avatar
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    Please define “real.”

    Is GM food real? Is trait-selected through generations of breeding food real? Is cooked food real?

  25. #75
    Senior Member Dave Cutter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
    So what's your point ??..What's your solution to a balanced diet and protein intake ??..Should we all stop eating "real food" and start popping amino acid pills, and living on meal replacement candy bars and protein powders ??
    People with eating disorders often think of "food" as merely chemical replacement. Much like "nutritional medicine". They can not see the difference between [as an example] an apple... and vitamin C supplements. Terms like "protein is protein" is the type of buzz words/phrases that parents (and friends) should look for.

    Real food.... has NOTHING to do with it's chemical make-up of where or how it is grown. "Real food" brings enjoyment to the people who eat it.... most often in a social environment. Don't fool yourself into believing that everyone with an eating disorder is a 14 year old skinny girl. Some of the stuff I've read here is full of things that should alarm most parents.

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