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Thread: Power tripper

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    Senior Member ftwelder's Avatar
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    Power tripper

    I started with a powertap hub in the fall and added a used computrainer when the hard winter hit around January. I relegated my trusty Schwinn spin bike for a Cyclops 400P indoor bike when an attractive CL ad popped up. I guess the short story is I collect digital information, tons of it on every ride I do. Many of us have these devices, how many save and try to make sense of it? I have a lot of buttons to push and files to upload but I am getting stronger and look forward to seeing how my body reacted to the work displayed on the screen. It's a slippery slope, I am on it. Digital performer following a virtual peloton.

    Weird.

    Anyone else?
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    Senior Member Spld cyclist's Avatar
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    I decided to go the other way and see if I could train effectively with relatively simple electronics that don't generate a whole lot of data. I got a fairly cheap/simple Polar FT7 HR monitor, a wired Cateye Strada bike computer with cadence, a Kurt Kinetic trainer, and a simple digital watch with stopwatch function. I use the stopwatch and a cue sheet to let me know when to start and stop intervals. I can convert trainer speed to power using Kurt's published power curve/formula. So I predetermine what speed range corresponds to the power range I want to hit in the intervals (that goes on the cue sheet too). I write down just a few data points in a paper log after each session: time of session/ride, distance, ave speed, max speed, ave HR, max HR, calories (which are of dubious accuracy and value).

    I decided I would use this system for a year (I'm just a few weeks in now) and see how it goes before deciding to upgrade, and if so, what to upgrades to do. I'll be reading other replies to this thread with interest!

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    Golden Cheetah. It's good and it's free.

    Training Peaks is also good but it isn't free.

    Don't bother paying for any of the online sites like Strava, where you have to pay to get almost-useless power data.

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    Senior Member ftwelder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by achoo View Post
    Golden Cheetah. It's good and it's free.

    Training Peaks is also good but it isn't free.

    Don't bother paying for any of the online sites like Strava, where you have to pay to get almost-useless power data.
    I just stated with Golden Cheetah a couple of days ago and really like it and it seems to cover everything.
    1886 Surrey machinists Invincible, 1900 Nashua, 1937 Raleigh Golden Arrow, 1938 Raleigh Silver Record, 1951 Armstrong tourmalet, 1970 Motobecane Grand Record, 1971 Raleigh Professional, 1971 Gitane TDF, 1972 Legnano Gran Primio, 1973, Peugeot PX-10, 1975 Roberts, 1984 Battaglin Giro, 1985 Grandis Speciale, 2012 FTW

    frankthewelder@comcast.net

    le prix s'oublie,la qualité reste ,(michel audiard)

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    Senior Member Black wallnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by achoo View Post

    Don't bother paying for any of the online sites like Strava, where you have to pay to get almost-useless power data.
    Yeah just use free services. The best policy is to get something for nothing and expect more. Us that are paying members of Strava and the like don't mind paying for the freeloaders out there. @ $59 a year Strava may or may not be worth it to you. If the power data is "almost-useless" so be it. Might it be better to simply state that in your opinion the power data presentation on Strava was not worth it for you?


    Mark

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black wallnut View Post
    Yeah just use free services. The best policy is to get something for nothing and expect more. Us that are paying members of Strava and the like don't mind paying for the freeloaders out there. @ $59 a year Strava may or may not be worth it to you. If the power data is "almost-useless" so be it. Might it be better to simply state that in your opinion the power data presentation on Strava was not worth it for you?
    If someone wants to give away a product for free, that's their decision. The fact that it has significantly more features than a product that someone else charges money for isn't my problem.

    Strava power provides nothing like NP, TSS, TSB, TRIMP, AWC, CP, or or CTL. And a whole lot more. If you don't know what those mean you have no business getting into a discussion where you make recommendations regarding the use of power meters in cycling and are just spouting off in ignorance.

    Paid-for Strava power is a waste of time compared to what free Golden Cheetah provides. Find your best 5-minute power intervals for all of your rides in Strava. How is that trending over the course of your training? Are you better now than you were last year? How about cadence? How long can you hold 120+ RPM without stopping? What's your VI on your 20-minute threshold intervals? Did you do a good job holding steady power during your last time trial? What is your AWC? Oh, wait. You can't use Strava for any of that.

    Yet you paid for it?

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    Senior Member Black wallnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by achoo View Post
    If someone wants to give away a product for free, that's their decision. The fact that it has significantly more features than a product that someone else charges money for isn't my problem.

    Strava power provides nothing like NP, TSS, TSB, TRIMP, AWC, CP, or or CTL. And a whole lot more. If you don't know what those mean you have no business getting into a discussion where you make recommendations regarding the use of power meters in cycling and are just spouting off in ignorance.

    Paid-for Strava power is a waste of time compared to what free Golden Cheetah provides. Find your best 5-minute power intervals for all of your rides in Strava. How is that trending over the course of your training? Are you better now than you were last year? How about cadence? How long can you hold 120+ RPM without stopping? What's your VI on your 20-minute threshold intervals? Did you do a good job holding steady power during your last time trial? What is your AWC? Oh, wait. You can't use Strava for any of that.

    Yet you paid for it?
    The pointless personal attack aside had you posted this first I would not have taken offense at your blanket don't pay for strava comment. Pardon me for replying into a thread about power where only those invited must know everything, Oh wait you are not the OP. I'm not making recommendations on the use of power meter. I am pointedly asking you to back up why you say to not make a purchasing decision.


    Mark

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black wallnut View Post
    The pointless personal attack aside had you posted this first I would not have taken offense at your blanket don't pay for strava comment. Pardon me for replying into a thread about power where only those invited must know everything, Oh wait you are not the OP. I'm not making recommendations on the use of power meter. I am pointedly asking you to back up why you say to not make a purchasing decision.
    Don't act offended after you post pejoratives phrases such ase "Yeah just use free services. The best policy is to get something for nothing and expect more" and "paying for the freeloaders out there."

    "Oh wait you're not the OP"? Wut? Then why did you respond to my post? And call me a "freeloader" in the process? You attack me from a position of ignorance, and now you complain?

    I backed up my post already. Strava is not a serious training tool. It doesn't provide enough detail nor any of the information that can be calculated from power inputs from rides. It provides no real ability to track progress outside of paging through ride after ride and trying to collate the data yourself - things that a computer is designed to do, yet Strava doesn't do it. Hell, free RWGPS is a better training tool than paid Strava - at least there you can get your NP for not only an entire ride, but for segments of your ride.

    Why pay for a tool when someone else provides a better tool for free? Paid Strava power provides almost none of the capabilities of free Golden Cheetah.

    The only thing Strava provides that Golden Cheetah doesn't is a way to easily measure yourself against other riders. And they do the only one that matters - how fast you go - for free.

    Power is a tool used to go faster. It's not an end unto itself.

    And even then, if you really cared to measure yourself against the truly fast, you get a license, pin on a number, and race. Because the really fast riders tend not to play on Strava. Strava is playing "Who's the biggest fish" in a tidal pond while over the dune is the ocean where the sharks and whales swim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by achoo View Post
    Strava power provides nothing like NP, TSS, TSB, TRIMP, AWC, CP, or or CTL. And a whole lot more. If you don't know what those mean you have no business getting into a discussion where you make recommendations regarding the use of power meters in cycling and are just spouting off in ignorance.
    Strava doesn't want to pay to license those terms from Training Peaks but you get very similar info with Strava Premium. I wouldn't say Strava Premium is worthless if (like me) you use it to track mileage.

    Weighted Average Power is close to NP
    Training Load is almost identical to TSS
    Fitness/Freshness/Form are almost identical to CTL/ATL/TSB
    Best Efforts Power Curve is virtually identical to CP curve

    Zone/HR distribution and 25w power distribution are pretty cool as well. In addition, if you use a Garmin cycling computer paired to a power meter (and upload to Garmin Connect) you'll also have access to TSS, IF and NP. The lap function on a Garmin will allow you to evaluate a lot of parameters during a set period of time like during an interval (as long as you remember to start/stop the lap timer.)
    Last edited by Dunbar; 03-27-14 at 05:45 PM.

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    Senior Member Black wallnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by achoo View Post
    Don't act offended after you post pejoratives phrases such ase "Yeah just use free services. The best policy is to get something for nothing and expect more" and "paying for the freeloaders out there."

    "Oh wait you're not the OP"? Wut? Then why did you respond to my post? And call me a "freeloader" in the process? You attack me from a position of ignorance, and now you complain?

    I backed up my post already. Strava is not a serious training tool. It doesn't provide enough detail nor any of the information that can be calculated from power inputs from rides. It provides no real ability to track progress outside of paging through ride after ride and trying to collate the data yourself - things that a computer is designed to do, yet Strava doesn't do it. Hell, free RWGPS is a better training tool than paid Strava - at least there you can get your NP for not only an entire ride, but for segments of your ride.

    Why pay for a tool when someone else provides a better tool for free? Paid Strava power provides almost none of the capabilities of free Golden Cheetah.

    The only thing Strava provides that Golden Cheetah doesn't is a way to easily measure yourself against other riders. And they do the only one that matters - how fast you go - for free.

    Power is a tool used to go faster. It's not an end unto itself.

    And even then, if you really cared to measure yourself against the truly fast, you get a license, pin on a number, and race. Because the really fast riders tend not to play on Strava. Strava is playing "Who's the biggest fish" in a tidal pond while over the dune is the ocean where the sharks and whales swim.
    I'm not acting offended, I am offended. Twice you have called me ignorant and yet I've not called you names. Yes I questioned your charcter and you opened that can of worms by posting in such shorthand opinion only without substance BS. You seem to think your thoughts and opinions are facts and yet they are just subjective opinion, and it seems poorly informed at that. For you and perhaps others Strava is not a serious training tool, yeah whatever. I came to this thread seeking knowledge about power and how it might help me. You sir on the other hand get all defensive when called on your assertions without any intellectual credibility and then call others ignorant. You do not know me or what I know! Your first reply to this thread is not directed towards the OP, perhaps it is directed towards the second post that just happens to say that he is not using power and yet you think I have no place in this forum if I do not know what a list of trademarked acronyms are, seriously.
    Back the hell up pilgrim! Qualify your comments a little better and objectively read what you are posting with another's perspective. A reading of your post is You like FREE, FREE, and OH don't spend money on this. I like free resources as well but I do not ever advocate for someone to not buy a subscription to support what they find useful. Someday I'll buy a powermeter but only because I want to know what i can do, I really could care less how others are doing. I won enough races in my youth, now I only want to beat myself.


    Mark

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black wallnut View Post
    Yeah just use free services. The best policy is to get something for nothing and expect more. Us that are paying members of Strava and the like don't mind paying for the freeloaders out there. @ $59 a year Strava may or may not be worth it to you. If the power data is "almost-useless" so be it. Might it be better to simply state that in your opinion the power data presentation on Strava was not worth it for you?
    No need to be so sensitive unless you own a piece of Strava. Strava extracts value from the 'freeloaders' you refer to and they are happy to provide the service they do. I've used Strava for a couple of years together with Golden Cheetah for tracking power. I upgraded recently to Strava's premium service. I ended up looking at a heat map and not much else so I cancelled the premium service.

    I agree that Strava is a poor substitute for Golden Cheetah as far as managing power.

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    A might bewildered... Dudelsack's Avatar
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    I'm an innocent bystander. I have Strava Premium. I get it for the social aspects.

    I did power training this winter on my Kurt Kinetic. I generated a bunch of numbers and rode a lot. I think I improved, at least when repeated my field test.

    What exactly did I miss? I do not understand the alphabet soup that was tossed out a few posts ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black wallnut View Post
    I'm not acting offended, I am offended. Twice you have called me ignorant and yet I've not called you names.
    Liar.

    Yes I questioned your charcter
    And you even admit you attacked me in your very next sentence. Yay.

    and you opened that can of worms by posting in such shorthand opinion only without substance BS.
    No substance? Ooooh-kay. And my merely saying Strava is nearly useless for training with power set you off.

    You seem to think your thoughts and opinions are facts and yet they are just subjective opinion,
    Really? Strava provides tracking for things like your best 20-min power over every single ride you have ever done?

    Golden Cheetah does that for free - both facts. Nothing subjective about it.

    You want subjective? Strava is merely an e-wang tool for cat 6 racers that gets them to pay money by pandering to overly competitive impulses. It's like paying someone to give you a trophies for playing in sandlot football games or pickup basketball games.

    and it seems poorly informed at that. For you and perhaps others Strava is not a serious training tool, yeah whatever.
    And that opinion - backed by facts - seems to offend you for some reason.

    I came to this thread seeking knowledge about power and how it might help me.
    No you didn't. Because the moment you saw something you didn't like you started with personal attacks against me and have devolved since then.

    You sir on the other hand get all defensive when called on your assertions without any intellectual credibility
    I'm defensive? After starting in on this thread with a personal attack on me, this is how you respond? Grow up.

    and then call others ignorant.
    No, just you. And if the shoe fits...

    You do not know me or what I know!
    So demonstrate some real knowledge about training with power.

    Your first reply to this thread is not directed towards the OP,
    How could you possibly know? ESP? The voices in your head told you?

    FWIW, you're wrong.

    perhaps it is directed towards the second post that just happens to say that he is not using power
    What planet did that get beamed into your head from? Not one with a blue sky, I'd bet. Someone posted they don't use power, and my next post is a short one mentioning two tools for power analysis with a recommendation not to use something like Strava because it's almost useless compared to a dedicated training-with-power tool? Who else could that have been direct to other than the OP?

    What

    The

    Hell?

    and yet you think I have no place in this forum
    You've posted absolutely nothing constructive, just personal attacks against me wrapped in defensive rants.

    Does that have a place?

    if I do not know what a list of trademarked acronyms are, seriously.
    If you don't know what they are, how do you know they're trademarked?

    And if you don't know what they mean, you have no business making a recommendation on what tool to use when training with power. That's like a clam telling a bird how to fly.

    Hence my claim you're posting from ignorance. Glad you admit it.

    Back the hell up pilgrim! Qualify your comments a little better and objectively read what you are posting with another's perspective.
    You seem to be the only one with his panties in a wad.

    A reading of your post is You like FREE, FREE, and OH don't spend money on this.
    Again - why would anyone spend money on a tool when a better tool is free?

    And you post in a mocking tone, trying to make fun of me - a form of purely personal attack.

    I like free resources as well but I do not ever advocate for someone to not buy a subscription to support what they find useful.
    And for actually training with power? Strava isn't really all that useful when compared to other tools. Both free and not free.

    The fact that there are some people who like it because it does what they want? Fine. Others who have posted here don't seem to be offended by my pointing out that there are serious free tools that objectively provide a lot more features than paid Strava.

    You're the only one getting into a snit over that statement.

    Someday I'll buy a powermeter but only because I want to know what i can do,
    So you don't have a powermeter? You don't know what you can do with it?

    Yet here you are attacking me over my recommendations? I have this image in my mind of a person born without legs screaming from the sidelines at a bunch of soccer players that they're playing the game all wrong.

    I really could care less how others are doing.
    Assuming you meant that you could not care less, that doesn't appear to be true when someone states that Strava power is just about useless for serious training with power when compared to tools designed specifically to do just that. Then you go berserk.

    I won enough races in my youth, now I only want to beat myself.
    You seem to be doing a pretty good job right here.
    Last edited by achoo; 03-28-14 at 09:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunbar View Post
    Strava doesn't want to pay to license those terms from Training Peaks but you get very similar info with Strava Premium. I wouldn't say Strava Premium is worthless if (like me) you use it to track mileage.

    Weighted Average Power is close to NP
    Training Load is almost identical to TSS
    Fitness/Freshness/Form are almost identical to CTL/ATL/TSB
    Best Efforts Power Curve is virtually identical to CP curve

    Zone/HR distribution and 25w power distribution are pretty cool as well. In addition, if you use a Garmin cycling computer paired to a power meter (and upload to Garmin Connect) you'll also have access to TSS, IF and NP. The lap function on a Garmin will allow you to evaluate a lot of parameters during a set period of time like during an interval (as long as you remember to start/stop the lap timer.)
    Yeah, Strava is definitely getting better. They have to.

    But tracking mileage? Doesn't Strava do that for a free account too?

    And if you really get into training with power, you'll start worrying more about time than distance. Especially if you ever wind up riding a trainer a lot, where "distance" is a made-up number.

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    Quote Originally Posted by achoo View Post
    But tracking mileage? Doesn't Strava do that for a free account too?
    Yes, but my point is if you're *already* uploading rides to Strava to track mileage the premium service is convenient. You don't have to upload rides into yet another program. I'm planning to buy WKO 4 if they ever release it but Strava Premium with Garmin Connect gives you access to quite a bit of power based training info.

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    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    I don't have a power meter, but I have 15 years of HR and course data. I find having data on past performance is invaluable for assessing and planning. I recently paid TP the $120 to go premium and I'm glad that I did. HRTSS isn't the same as TSS, though in some cases it's better. I've been on Strava for free for a while and recently upgraded to premium. I don't think it was worth it. However for those without a power meter, the combination of free Strava and TP premium is very nice. Did TP correctly predict your collection of Strava PRs? As your CTL and TSB go up do your segment watts increase also? Looking back over the past year's training, I find quite a good correlation, which gives me confidence in TP's algorithms.

    A superior thing about TP is that I've been uploading data from my Polar watch to Polar software for 15 years. I use the Polar for my not on-the-road activities: rollers, spin class, weights, hiking, DH and XC skiing, even core workouts. I capture everything, because without everything, CTL and TSB aren't worth much. And TP will upload Polar data through Device Agent. Bingo.

    So, an honorable mention for those who collect HR and ride data but can't afford or don't want to bother with a PM. And a question to the PMers: so how do you input the data which I collect with my Polar to get your CTL and TSB?

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    Senior Member Black wallnut's Avatar
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    I get plenty of data without power. Sure power would be nice but it is a bit on the expensive side now. Training without power but with HRM has helped me improve on the road and on the trainer. Strava works just fine for me and is a good training tool in that it offers data that I need.


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    I have power measurement on all my bikes including the track. I use Cycling Analytics which is a cloud based service similar to WKO. I use a Mac so WKO will not run work and I do not like running PC simulation software to run PC programs. I am a data junkie and like the on the bike power measurement as well as post ride analysis. I used GC for awhile but prefer CA.

    I have found that the construct proposed in Training and Racing with a Power Meter and the performance manager in training peaks as proposed by Coggan not applicable to me and probably not applicable to the track. I can do a very fatiguing track workout - high cadence, high power short duration efforts. The TSS for that effort will be low. Likewise, I am very good at high power shorter duration efforts but my FTP is low. I can do a hard road group ride which will indicate a very high TSS showing a lot of anaerobic threshold efforts and I will recover from it quite easily. IMO, for those athletes that are younger road racers with "traditional" FTP numbers, the construct will work and the TSB readings indicative of fatigue. However, for older athletes that are specialists, it seems off.

    IMO, the other problem with the FTP model is that it focuses athletes on FTP that IMO, is applicable for time trialists who do 40 ITTs. So an athlete does an FTP test and scores low and becomes demotivated. Well, he/she may not be good at constant torque, constant power work. He/she may be more bursty and do well where there are shorter accelerations and faster efforts.

    IMO, power measurement training is excellent but focus on FTP and the Coggan construct may be counter productive to improving cycling and finding what type of cycling best suits an individual.
    Last edited by Hermes; 03-28-14 at 12:49 PM.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

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    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    I have power measurement on all my bikes including the track. I use Cycling Analytics which is a cloud based service similar to WKO. I use a Mac so WKO will not run work and I do not like running PC simulation software to run PC programs. I am a data junkie and like the on the bike power measurement as well as post ride analysis. I used GC for awhile but prefer CA.

    I have found that the construct proposed in Training and Racing with a Power Meter and the performance manager in training peaks as proposed by Coggan not applicable to me and probably not applicable to the track. I can do a very fatiguing track workout - high cadence, high power short duration efforts. The TSS for that effort will be low. Likewise, I am very good at high power shorter duration efforts but my FTP is low. I can do a hard road group ride which will indicate a very high TSS showing a lot of anaerobic threshold efforts and I will recover from it quite easily. IMO, for those athletes that are younger road racers with "traditional" FTP numbers, the construct will work and the TSB readings indicative of fatigue. However, for older athletes that are specialists, it seems off.

    IMO, the other problem with the FTP model is that it focuses athletes on FTP that IMO, is applicable for time trialists who do 40 ITTs. So an athlete does an FTP test and scores low and becomes demotivated. Well, he/she may not be good at constant torque, constant power work. He/she may be more bursty and do well where there are shorter accelerations and faster efforts.

    IMO, power measurement training is excellent but focus on FTP and the Coggan construct may be counter productive to improving cycling and finding what type of cycling best suits an individual.
    Very interesting. I'm an older guy with crummy FTP (not that I use power). I can get around that somewhat by being bursty as you say, and hurting folks until they don't want to hurt anymore. Do you use the Performance Management Chart, and thus note your CTL, ATL, and TSB? And note that the chart does not predict performance, at least to some degree? I find that if I've been running a high (for me) CTL for a while, I recover easily from low TSS workouts, even though they may feel fatiguing at the time, while a series of high TSS workouts or one over-400 TSS ride will have me doing recovery rides for a few days, exactly as predicted by the chart.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    IMO, the other problem with the FTP model is that it focuses athletes on FTP that IMO, is applicable for time trialists who do 40 ITTs. So an athlete does an FTP test and scores low and becomes demotivated. Well, he/she may not be good at constant torque, constant power work. He/she may be more bursty and do well where there are shorter accelerations and faster efforts.
    I'm fairly new to a lot of this but I don't get the impression from reading the racing forum that training for road racing and crits involves a ton of training to raise your FTP. Most of the suggested training involves a mix of shorter and longer intervals. Most advice given acknowledges the surging nature of those races requiring a different type of fitness than TT's or triathlons. Furthermore, they advise that you need to race your strengths which may, or may not, include having a high FTP. I know carpediemracing has posted at length about how he has successfully raced cat 3 as a strong sprinter with a relatively weak ~210w FTP.

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    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    Very interesting. I'm an older guy with crummy FTP (not that I use power). I can get around that somewhat by being bursty as you say, and hurting folks until they don't want to hurt anymore. Do you use the Performance Management Chart, and thus note your CTL, ATL, and TSB? And note that the chart does not predict performance, at least to some degree? I find that if I've been running a high (for me) CTL for a while, I recover easily from low TSS workouts, even though they may feel fatiguing at the time, while a series of high TSS workouts or one over-400 TSS ride will have me doing recovery rides for a few days, exactly as predicted by the chart.
    Cycling Analytics, like WKO and GC, has a performance manager based upon Coggan's formulation and FTP construct. I look at it but it has not been very helpful with my trainer/roller workouts that I have been doing since November. And I have been doing a lot of leg plyometrics 2 to 3 times per week. The leg plyos are very fatiguing on the legs. I find the rollers/trainer much harder than riding on the road or track. Unless I assign a TSS to the plyometric work and fudge the indoor TSS, the performance manager is not going to mean much.

    As avid a cyclist as you seem to be, my suggestion is to get a power meter. I have the Vector and it is working great and I plan on using it on the tandem. You can easily more the Vector around from bike to bike.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  22. #22
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    Cycling Analytics, like WKO and GC, has a performance manager based upon Coggan's formulation and FTP construct. I look at it but it has not been very helpful with my trainer/roller workouts that I have been doing since November. And I have been doing a lot of leg plyometrics 2 to 3 times per week. The leg plyos are very fatiguing on the legs. I find the rollers/trainer much harder than riding on the road or track. Unless I assign a TSS to the plyometric work and fudge the indoor TSS, the performance manager is not going to mean much.

    As avid a cyclist as you seem to be, my suggestion is to get a power meter. I have the Vector and it is working great and I plan on using it on the tandem. You can easily more the Vector around from bike to bike.
    Yeah, and only $1700/seat, plus two pair of $300 shoes. I paid less than that for the tandem. I'd think about it if I were a kid of 50 or so and had the disposable. ROI not so good at my age.

    I have thought (briefly) about a hub, but needing a 36H 145mm, not going to happen even if I had the change.

    I just jumped in here to say that the data examination/navel gazing works well even if you're using HRMs, as long as you can upload the data. Using HRTSS, PM may not track the legs perfectly, as you say, but it does track aerobic performance potential. If my heart will go, I can go, as long as I didn't do something silly like heavy weights the night before.

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    Senior Member ftwelder's Avatar
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    I have been uploading all my data from the various devices and spend time looking at it and identifying features on the charts that show changes in tempo and the result in HR and power output. The plan I am following has me doing a lot of intervals and all types of hill/power repeats and notice my power in those situations is improving quite a bit. I want to do track and crit type events as I think I am more suited. BTW, I am doing my second FTP test after six weeks of hard work and I am looking forward after resting/light duty for a week.

    People are upgrading their stuff and selling off older devices. That was how I ended up with most of it.
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