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  1. #26
    Senior Member Dave Cutter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spld cyclist View Post
    Sorry. I'm not sure I can help from being political, but I'll try to stay on topic....
    If its any help.... I understand the American Government is working a new "recommended dietary food chart"... that is designed to lower humans impact on the planet (to help slow global warming).

  2. #27
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Australian Dietary Guidelines

    Australia
    Homepage | Eat For Health

    About the Australian Dietary Guidelines
    About the Australian Dietary Guidelines | Eat For Health
    Guideline Development | Eat For Health

    The 5 Guidelines
    Australian Dietary Guidelines 1 - 5 | Eat For Health

    Guideline 1: To achieve and maintain a healthy weight, be physically active and choose amounts of nutritious food and drinks to meet your energy needs
    Guideline 2: Enjoy a wide variety of nutritious foods from these five groups every day:
    • Plenty of vegetables, including different types and colours, and legumes/beans
    • Fruit
    • Grain (cereal) foods, mostly wholegrain and/or high cereal fibre varieties, such as breads, cereals, rice, pasta, noodles, polenta, couscous, oats, quinoa and barley
    • Lean meats and poultry, fish, eggs, tofu, nuts and seeds, and legumes/beans
    • Milk, yoghurt, cheese and/or their alternatives, mostly reduced fat (reduced fat milks are not suitable for children under the age of 2 years)
    • And drink plenty of water.

    Guideline 3: Limit intake of foods containing saturated fat, added salt, added sugars and alcohol
    Guideline 4: Encourage, support and promote breastfeeding
    Guideline 5: Care for your food; prepare and store it safely.

    The Diagram
    Australian Guide to Healthy Eating | Eat For Health

    Within the Food Essentials section, the Guide goes into more detail, talking about the foods that make up each food group, the serving sizes, and the recommended amounts. The Guide also provides links to recipes, and emphasises that a variety of foods should be consumed.
    Food Essentials | Eat For Health

    The Guide also includes some general advice about healthy eating, and provides information about the nutrition labels on packaged foods and food safety.


    For a female adult between 19 and 50, the guide recommends that the diet be divided into 18 servings per day. 38.9% vegetables and fruits, 33.3% grain products, 13.8% milk and alternatives, and 13.8% meat and alternatives.

    For a male adult of the same age, the guide recommends that the diet be divided into 19.5 servings per day. 41% vegetables and fruits, 30.8% grain products, 12.8% milk and alternatives, and 15.4% meat and alternatives.



    (Again, this thread is not here to discuss any perceived politics behind these guides, it is here to compare the dietary recommendations of various government and health organisations, and to provide links for further reference.)

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
    Actually.... I think you're remembering a cultural diet... and inferring that it was a national government sponsored trend. It wasn't. By the time I got into the 1970's.... the hippy trends had us all eating organically grown salads and range fed hens. My wife and I bought carob-chocolate treats at the local health food store for our son.


    .
    We were experimenting with macrobiotic diets as early as 1966. Economical, easy to prepare.. ..and most importantly, anti-establishment. :-)

  4. #29
    Senior Member Dave Cutter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lenA View Post
    We were experimenting with macrobiotic diets as early as 1966. Economical, easy to prepare.. ..and most importantly, anti-establishment. :-)
    I lived in America through the 60's. But I know from my own experiences that diets have always evolved and changed. But the changes.... are tiny. People over a hundred years old have NO problems relating to modern diets. The European concept of a diet based in grains and/or cereals has real historical roots.

    If someone is living on a diet of whey powder, Red Bull, and draft beer..... it would be natural for them to think that was a normal diet. They might naturally think such a diet was culturally acceptable and universal in it's use. The same could be said for fast-food eater.... and for vegans. These are all cultural differences in diets. And... that doesn't even begin to touch on the OTHER cultural differences in diet.... like how potatoes are prepared.

    It might be better to judge diets on the foods produced by farmers.... than peoples concepts of how OTHER people are eating.

    The only major changes in farming has been increased acreage (from ZERO) devoted to soybeans. (My wife and I rarely eat edamame as we prefer lima beans.) As with corn... soybeans are used in feeds and processed into oils and other products.
    Another difference has been in the fields of husbandry with the breading of naturally leaner meat sources. Modern hogs and beef both mature quickly and are slaughtered with increasingly smaller invests of feed per pound of product (meat).
    Cane sugar was replaced in the 1950's with beet sugar... then in the 70's cheap corn syrup sweeteners started replacing beet sugar as a processed product sweetener.

    All this means is Americans now have much cheaper cooking oils and less fatty meat products. It might be safe to bet that todays familys eat more vegetable fat whereas previous Americans ate more animal fat. I don't know how many people still render lard for reuse in cooking as was done in the early part of the 20th century. But I'd guess that (based on production and costs) vegetable oils have replaced most meat based fats.

    Corn sweeteners are nearly tasteless... so food products have grown increasingly sweeter as no sweetener flavor is imparted into the food product. So.... more sweeteners... more empty calories (no micronutrients).

    All-in-all.... not huge differences.

  5. #30
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myosmith View Post
    The whole point of my first post in this thread was that I don't trust USDA nutrition guidelines, then or now, to be sound advice based on the best nutritional interests of the public. There are way too many political and economic agendas involved to assure that the recommendations are unbiased.
    This is the problem, policies are not determined as much by science as they are by those with deeper pockets and financial interests in their respective products.

    Machka points out that the Canadian food guide does not place a % limit on sugar:

    "The guide emphasises in many places to choose foods that are low in fat, sugar or salt. And the %DV page states that “sugars do not have a % DV because there is no recommended amount of sugar for a healthy population.

    It does however have some solid numbers on everything else.

    On another note:

    The meat industry also lobbies the government but to a much lesser extent than the corn growers association and Monsanto... agri beef spending in 2013 (U.S.) was $85,000 compared to almost 7 million from the corn growers association and Monsanto.

    If one wants to see who is driving food policy you need to follow the money.

  6. #31
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver View Post
    This is the problem, policies are not determined as much by science as they are by those with deeper pockets and financial interests in their respective products.

    Machka points out that the Canadian food guide does not place a % limit on sugar:

    "The guide emphasises in many places to choose foods that are low in fat, sugar or salt. And the %DV page states that “sugars do not have a % DV because there is no recommended amount of sugar for a healthy population.

    It does however have some solid numbers on everything else.

    On another note:

    The meat industry also lobbies the government but to a much lesser extent than the corn growers association and Monsanto... agri beef spending in 2013 (U.S.) was $85,000 compared to almost 7 million from the corn growers association and Monsanto.

    If one wants to see who is driving food policy you need to follow the money.
    The reason for this sugar policy or non-policy is that studies have shown that the percent of carbs which are sugar makes no difference to health markers, however much one has read BS to the contrary. That's the science of it.

  7. #32
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    The reason for this sugar policy or non-policy is that studies have shown that the percent of carbs which are sugar makes no difference to health markers, however much one has read BS to the contrary. That's the science of it.
    The health markers are there... a responsible health authority would do a better job of making people aware of what many scientists have known for a very long time.

    Sugar

    No added sugar is what we would consider a safe amount, but that would cause an economic calamity.


  8. #33
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Less politics ... more food talk.

  9. #34
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Canada Food Guide’s suggestions regarding vegetables and fruit …
    Vegetables and Fruit - Canada's Food Guide
    Tips for Fruits and Vegetables - Canada's Food Guide

    To eat well start by following these easy tips from Canada's Food Guide:

    • Eat at least one dark green and one orange vegetable each day.
    -- Try dark green vegetables such as arugula, broccoli, chard, dandelion greens, gai lan, kale/collards, mustard greens, and salad greens including romaine lettuce, spinach or mesclun mix.
    -- Try orange vegetables such as carrots, sweet potatoes, squash, pumpkin or yams. Apricots, cantaloupes, mangoes, nectarines, papaya and peaches also contain vitamin A and can be chosen instead of one orange vegetable.
    • Choose vegetables and fruit prepared with little or no added fat, sugar or salt.
    -- Enjoy vegetables steamed, baked or stir-fried instead of deep fried.
    • Have vegetables and fruit more often than juice.

    The site recommends trying a wide variety of vegetables and fruit, and provides tips and suggestions for preparation. And of course … “Choose vegetables and fruit prepared with little or no added fat, sugar or salt.”

    The Guide recommends 7-8 servings of fruit and vegetables per day for women and 8-10 servings for men. Throughout most of the sites I've looked at fruit and veg make up the majority of the day's healthy diet.

    So … what is a serving?
    What is a Food Guide Serving of Vegetables and Fruit? - Canada's Food Guide - Health Canada

    As the link above mentions, a serving is, for example … half a cup of green beans, half a cup of broccoli, 1 large carrot, 1 medium banana, ½ a mango, 1 large kiwi …

    And that’s something I didn’t realise … that a mango is 2 servings of fruit. That’s good!! I might have to pick up more mangos. They make a great evening snack instead of some sort of packaged junk food.

    Kiwis are really good too ... I might have to pick up a few of them.

    We were looking at persimmons last week and debating about picking up one or two. They aren't mentioned on Canada's list of fruit, but perhaps that's because they aren't common there.

    A mix of roast pumpkin, carrots, sweet potato, parsnips (which they don't mention on the list, but which I like) and turnips is also nice ... a delicious autumn meal.

  10. #35
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Both the Canadian and Australian sites provide recipes and meal ideas …
    Fast and Easy Meal Ideas - Canada's Food Guide - Health Canada
    Healthy Recipes | Eat For Health
    Tips for eating well | Eat For Health

    And snacking suggestions …
    Smart Snacking - Canada's Food Guide - Health Canada
    Healthy meal and snack ideas | Eat For Health

    And tips for eating out, away from home …
    Eating Out - Canada's Food Guide - Health Canada
    Eating away from home | Eat For Health


    These carrot and parsnip muffins look really good (with 3 servings of veg) … I’m wondering if I’d have any luck baking them. Things like that tend to go a bit flat for me, but I might give them a try. They’d make good lunches.
    Carrot and parsnip muffins | Eat For Health


    This comment on the Australian site made me smile … “Try to serve yourself, so that you can control your portion size.” It’s something I’ve had a bit of trouble getting used to … in Canada, we serve ourselves at meals. In Australia the host serves up the dishes in the kitchen, and then brings them out to you. So you don’t have a choice of what you want to eat. I end up dishing off several things onto Rowan’s plate mid-meal.

  11. #36
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    I like snacking on almonds and to a lesser extent, peanuts (which are really a legume).

    When it comes to avoiding added sugar you really have to get in the habit of reading every label...

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    How can you have a non political discussion about food when you're throwing around gov info?

  13. #38
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lenA View Post
    How can you have a non political discussion about food when you're throwing around gov info?
    If that's the way you think, then there's just one thing for you to do ... exit this thread and start one of your own where you can express your political opinions.

    Meanwhile ... back to veggies and fruit ... and recipes and recommendations.

  14. #39
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    New Zealand

    New Zealand’s site isn’t quite as “pretty” and easy to use as the Canadian and Australian sites (unless there’s another site I’m not aware of.)
    Nutrition | Ministry of Health NZ
    Food and Nutrition Guidelines | Ministry of Health NZ
    https://www.healthed.govt.nz/resourc...eke-o-aotearoa
    Adults - NZ Nutrition Foundation

    Their serving recommendations are 3 servings of vegetables, 2 servings of fruit, 6 servings of whole grains, 2 servings of milk and milk products, and 1 serving of meat products.

    And then they’ve got a large section about reducing fat, sugar, and salt … and increasing physical activity.

    They recommend these sites for healthy recipes and other nutritional advice.
    Healthy Food Guide
    Healthy Recipes - Health Navigator NZ


    However, despite the fact that the “official” site seems to recommend more whole grains than veg, this site recommends that a meal should consist of ½ veggies, ¼ grains, and ¼ protein.
    Healthy eating plan - Health Navigator NZ
    (This is also the recommendation used by the New Zealand television program “Downsize Me” aired late in the evenings, once a week.)

  15. #40
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    National Heart Foundation of Australia

    National Heart Foundation of Australia
    Healthy eating

    This site also provides recipes, including a collection of different cuisines …
    Pages*- default

    They’ve got some good tips for taking steps toward a healthier lifestyle …
    What is a healthy weight?

    “Top tips for healthy weight loss

    •Think small. This is not about dieting or running marathons. This is about making small, easy changes to your lifestyle so they become the norm for life. Little things like swapping full cream milk and yoghurt for low-fat varieties and replacing biscuits with fruit can make a big difference in the long run. Try some of our delicious healthy recipe ideas (link) to help get started.

    •Move more, sit less. Again, little things can make a big difference over time. Small changes incorporated into your daily routine - like walking to get the newspaper or a litre of milk, taking the stairs instead of the lift and cutting down on the amount of TV you watch, all add up. There are so many ways you can start to be more active each day.

    •Find what you like. If you like to dance, take a dance class. Play outside with your kids. Ride a bike. Fly a kite. Even window shopping can be a good energy burner. So if a gym’s not your thing, don’t worry. There are so many options out there …”

    They’ve got information regarding fats and cholesterol …
    Fats and Cholesterol

    And of course, there is the page on healthy eating … with the expected healthy eating advice …
    Food Nutrition and facts

    “You can start enjoying a healthy balanced diet today simply by following these five tips:

    1. Eat a variety of foods.
    2. Include vegetables, wholegrains, fruit, nuts and seeds every day.
    3. Choose healthier fats and oils.
    4. Try to limit sugary, fatty and salty take-away meals and snacks.
    5. Drink mainly water.”

    Further details about each of these points is linked on that page.

    Within the “carbohydrates and sugars section”, they make a good point …

    “What are carbohydrates?
    Many people think of rice, potatoes and pasta as 'carbs' but that's only a small part of the huge range of foods know as carbohydrates. All fruit and vegetables, all breads and all cereal products are carbohydrates as well as sugars and sugary foods.

    Choosing the healthier carbohydrates is common sense. Fresh fruit and veggies, wholegrain breads, wholegrain cereals and pasta and rice are all healthy foods and form part of a healthy eating pattern.”

  16. #41
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Cancer Council of Victoria (Australia)

    The other site I linked to earlier in this thread was the Cancer Council of Victoria (Australia) Healthy Diets for Cancer Prevention - Cancer Council Victoria

    Their recommendation regarding fruit and vegetables is the same as the Heart Foundations recommendation …


    “Eat plenty of vegetables, legumes and fruits. Adults should eat at least 5 serves of vegetables and 2 serves of fruit each day. …. Eat a variety of vegetables and fruit – it doesn't matter if they're fresh, tinned, frozen or dried – it all counts.

    A serve size is about the same as an adult's handful, so adults should eat 5 handfuls of vegetables and 2 handfuls of fruit daily.”


    The Cancer Council also recommends 2 servings of grains per day, 3 servings of dairy per day, and 3-4 servings of meat per week.


    For the most part these sites from different organisation and different parts of the world are in agreement about what makes up a healthy diet.

    I'll have to look up what the Diabetes organisations have to say next ...

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    Corn syrup and corn fed beef are evil.

    No politics there.

  18. #43
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weatherby View Post
    Corn syrup and corn fed beef are evil.

    No politics there.
    And we're not talking about corn syrup or corn fed beef here. Not sure where the discussion about corn came from. Or is that the first vegetable that springs to mind? It's barely even mentioned in the food guides.


    We're talking about well balanced diets consisting of veggies, fruit, whole grains, dairy and lean meats.

  19. #44
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
    Machka, Machka, Machka, The anti-government and fad dieters are not going to let you express any opinion that differs from their own...

    They have their own thread protected from any and all contrary opinions -- and they are not about to let you start a thread that may disagree with their views...

    The fact is: the government backed nutrition advise has not always been perfect by any means -- but the profiteers advocating the fad diets -- along with the meat and dairy associations and the pharm industry -- have been far, far worse...
    +1.

    Nevertheless ... I think it's good to have a thread in Training and Nutrition that suggests a "tried and true", and well-supported, diet that includes a large variety of good foods, and discourages diets high in saturated fat, sugar, and salt. And that encourages drinking plenty of water and getting lots of exercise.


    There are different diet and nutritional viewpoints ... others have a different viewpoint and have threads for their viewpoints ... but this is a diet and nutritional viewpoint I like. And I appreciate the information provided in the sites I've been linking to.

  20. #45
    Administrator CbadRider's Avatar
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    I posted in the Paleo thread that anyone with a differing nutritional viewpoint could feel free to start their own thread instead of derailing the Paleo thread. That's what Machka has done.

    If you want to discuss the pros and cons of this type of diet, go ahead. If you want to post just to be snarky and derail the thread, think again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by toddles View Post
    So Tom only hires people that are nutty? Is part of the requirement to be a moderator on this site is that you have to be nuts??
    Forum Guidelines *click here*

  21. #46
    Bicycle Repair Man !!! Sixty Fiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CbadRider View Post
    I posted in the Paleo thread that anyone with a differing nutritional viewpoint could feel free to start their own thread instead of derailing the Paleo thread. That's what Machka has done.

    If you want to discuss the pros and cons of this type of diet, go ahead. If you want to post just to be snarky and derail the thread, think again.

    CbadRider
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    So we cannot critique the respective food guides of our countries in a civil manner ?

    The same applies to the paleo thread in that civil discourse is welcome and appreciated.

    We're adults here and should be able to do this without people getting their undies in a twist.

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    Administrator CbadRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sixty Fiver View Post
    So we cannot critique the respective food guides of our countries in a civil manner ?
    Evidently some people have a difficult time doing that, based on the posts I've had to delete.
    Quote Originally Posted by toddles View Post
    So Tom only hires people that are nutty? Is part of the requirement to be a moderator on this site is that you have to be nuts??
    Forum Guidelines *click here*

  23. #48
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    How about we leave the "who said" out of it and just talk healthy, well-balanced diet? Attacks against governments are very like ad hominems, which are not good form around here.

    I've been an email subscriber to Evidence Magazine for a while and have found Legge, the guy behind it, to be easy to read and well-informed.

    Here's a link to his Smart Fat Loss course:
    Smart Fat Loss
    Most people don’t know how to diet. They focus on the wrong things, get discouraged, and make no progress. Using these articles, you’ll be able to get ahead of your peers and get the body you’ve always wanted.

  24. #49
    Senior Member squirtdad's Avatar
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    I've posted this before, because I found it really interesting I really suggest taking the time to read it

    One guy methodically tried a number of different diets with close mecdical surpervison over a year. I think a key take away, is that every one is different, you have to find what works for you. In this case one diet caused such bad medical changes in cholesterol that he had to stop it.

    It is an interesting read.

    http://www.outsideonline.com/fitness...-vs--Food.html

    The authors conclusions for himself : "what did I learn in the end? Lean protein, good fats, healthy carbs. More specifically: modestly sized meals consisting of lots of produce, a bit of lean meat now and then, and grains that haven't been bleached and pulverized into submission. Also, olive oil is good, and snack on nuts and dates.

    In broad strokes, that approach works for almost anybody. But broad strokes don't cut it. I also discovered that wheat doesn't cause me problems, that dairy does, and that I should avoid tomatoes. You might be totally different. The Okinawa Program may save your life. The Paleo Diet for Athletes could make you faster. I can't say how you'll react to any single diet.

    What I can provide, though, after 12 months alone in the diet-industry wilderness, is a strategy for finding what does work for you—my own take on what is commonly referred to as an elimination diet. You'll have to keep a diary of everything you eat and how it makes you feel, but it won't take a full year—more like two months. "
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  25. #50
    Senior Member koolerb's Avatar
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    More veggies, legumes, fruits and whole grains; less meat. I saw a really good TED Talk about being a weekday vegetarian and I took it to heart. We've (my family) have reduced our meat intake by probably 2/3 over the last 5 years. I'm not going to jump on the vegetarian/vegan bandwagon 100% any time soon, but I definitely think less meat is better. I'm middle aged now, and the difference between the people my age that have taken good care of themselves, and the people that haven't is enormous. Hospitals, heart-attacks, pills; its freaking ridiculous.

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