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  1. #51
    Senior Member bmontgomery87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprince View Post
    I agree with that, except the part about climbing. Going uphill, it doesn't matter if you can squat 1000 lbs, gravity is still stronger than you are.
    Yes.
    But a pair of quads and hamstrings that squat 400 on a regular basis can do a lot of heavy mashing compared to the guy who doesn't do squats at all. That's my opinion, but in the riding I've done with friends, it's held true. I have the best squats/deads, and despite being on a singlespeed, I can climb much faster than my non-lifting friends.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmontgomery87 View Post
    x2

    I wish I had a velo close to home, I'd definitely race.
    I put 100+ miles on my track bike every week regardless.
    I feel your pain. There was a project planned for DC which seems to have died
    Proposed D.C. Velodrome Goes Off the Track: DCist

    Closest is probably the Giordana Velodrome near Charlotte NC. Maybe the 2015 world championships will revive interest in building something in Richmond.

  3. #53
    Why not? EthanYQX's Avatar
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    As much as I'm enjoying the banter about how I can't get through a Pilates class, let's look at this the other way. Can any of you guys squat twice your body weight? 1.5x? Those are acceptable baseline numbers for amateur athletes.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
    And, BTW, why the major distinction between "training" vs "exercise"? Training involves and includes exercise. Exercise is part of training...
    Exercise is done for how it makes you feel, right now. An example would be a 20 minute walk every week, a yoga class, or a Pilates class. Training is exercise, yes, but done with a logical progression towards a goal. An example would be starting with a 20 minute walk one week, then a 25 minute one the next week, then a 30 minute walk the week after. Another example is starting with the empty barbell, and adding ten pounds or five pounds every workout. Training is about six weeks, six months, or six years later, not today or tomorrow.

    The little muscles in your "core" are trained through heavy compound movements. When I'm talking about barbell work I don't mean isolation work, I mean squats, presses and deadlifts. You are just as likely to fail a squat due to a weak back as you are due to weak legs.
    "It is not the critic who counts."

  4. #54
    Senior Member Spld cyclist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EthanYQX View Post
    As much as I'm enjoying the banter about how I can't get through a Pilates class, let's look at this the other way. Can any of you guys squat twice your body weight? 1.5x? Those are acceptable baseline numbers for amateur athletes.
    It's interesting that people who do heavy weight training are always talking about lifts as a multiple of body weight, but those training for some other sport/activity usually don't. If you're training for an endurance sport, it's more a matter of how much strength is enough and at what point the costs of weight training (e.g. increased body weight and the time cost of weight training vs. time on the bike) outweigh the performance benefits. I'm not sure lifting multiples of body weight is a very relevant metric in that case.

    For sprinting and track cycling, I agree that massive strength is valuable. For cycling and climbing on the flats, I guess my question is if it matters if the force of each pedal stroke is a small percentage vs. a tiny percentage of what the cyclist can squat or deadlift.

  5. #55
    Senior Member bmontgomery87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spld cyclist View Post

    For sprinting and track cycling, I agree that massive strength is valuable. For cycling and climbing on the flats, I guess my question is if it matters if the force of each pedal stroke is a small percentage vs. a tiny percentage of what the cyclist can squat or deadlift.
    I guess it depends on the percentage of your maximum strength required.
    Someone with higher maximum strength would most likely be able to repeat submaximal efforts faster and for longer than someone who doesn't have as much strength.

    Examples:
    If I can lift 500 pounds off of the ground, I can load 40 pound bags of sand all day without dying and I can probably do it safely, because my core muscles have become accustomed to it.
    If you can only lift 150 pounds, that 40 pound bag of sand is actually quite difficult for you.

    It's not a perfect example, as energy systems used while cycling versus while lifting are a bit different, my point is that a stronger body with better composition (more muscle, less fat) is a more efficient body than its non lifting counterpart.
    So if I'm stronger than you, I can ideally maintain x cadence in a higher gear without too much discomfort. yes?

  6. #56
    Senior Member Spld cyclist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmontgomery87 View Post
    I guess it depends on the percentage of your maximum strength required.
    Someone with higher maximum strength would most likely be able to repeat submaximal efforts faster and for longer than someone who doesn't have as much strength.

    Examples:
    If I can lift 500 pounds off of the ground, I can load 40 pound bags of sand all day without dying and I can probably do it safely, because my core muscles have become accustomed to it.
    If you can only lift 150 pounds, that 40 pound bag of sand is actually quite difficult for you.

    It's not a perfect example, as energy systems used while cycling versus while lifting are a bit different, my point is that a stronger body with better composition (more muscle, less fat) is a more efficient body than its non lifting counterpart.
    So if I'm stronger than you, I can ideally maintain x cadence in a higher gear without too much discomfort. yes?
    I understand your point. But if we try to make your example analogous to cycling, are we really talking about a 40 lb bag? 20 lb? Maybe 10? I don't know the answer, but I'm guessing that if we were talking about a 10 lb bag, the stronger lifter would have little or no advantage.

  7. #57
    Senior Member bmontgomery87's Avatar
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    I agree there, which is why I agreed with the fact that distance cyclists would reach a point of diminishing returns if they aren't recovering from strength work.

    But in terms of a sprint at the end of a race or a spirited climb I think the strength would be very beneficial. Im not talking about spinning up twenty miles of mountain, I was thinking lance Armstrong mashing up climbs standing up.

  8. #58
    Senior Member GeorgeBMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EthanYQX View Post
    As much as I'm enjoying the banter about how I can't get through a Pilates class,....

    Exercise is done for how it makes you feel, right now. An example would be a 20 minute walk every week, a yoga class, or a Pilates class. Training is exercise, yes, but done with a logical progression towards a goal. .
    So you are trying to say that practicing yoga or Pilates has no purpose beyond how it makes you feel at that particular moment and has no logical progression?
    ... I suspect that most serious yoga or Pilates practitioners would strongly disagree... And I think it shows a lack of understanding of those disciplines on your part.
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  9. #59
    Why not? EthanYQX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
    So you are trying to say that practicing yoga or Pilates has no purpose beyond how it makes you feel at that particular moment and has no logical progression?
    ... I suspect that most serious yoga or Pilates practitioners would strongly disagree... And I think it shows a lack of understanding of those disciplines on your part.
    No, I am explaining the difference between training and exercise.

    However, most commercial Pilates or yoga classes are taught that way, yes. I have no Pilates experience but a fair amount of yoga experience and all of the yoga I did was more or less the same week after week. No real progression to higher skilled moves or more strength being require, once I managed to get through a class in probably the second week that was it, the adaptation stopped and stayed where it was. that was what I wanted since I used it for recovery, however.

    For the record, Crossfit falls under the same banner thanks to the "WOD" foolishness.

    How do you progress your Pilates training? I keep hearing that I don't know what I'm talking about, but I've explained my viewpoint and haven't seen an explanation from the Pilates crowd.
    Last edited by EthanYQX; 05-29-14 at 11:55 AM. Reason: Spelling
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  10. #60
    Why not? EthanYQX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spld cyclist View Post
    I understand your point. But if we try to make your example analogous to cycling, are we really talking about a 40 lb bag? 20 lb? Maybe 10? I don't know the answer, but I'm guessing that if we were talking about a 10 lb bag, the stronger lifter would have little or no advantage.
    Conveniently, the point of diminishing returns for strength, in non-strength athletes like cyclists or runners, tends to come right at the point where getting much stronger gets much harder. For example, it's way easier to take your deadlift from 0-450lbs than it is to take it from 450-600lbs and the difference in performance in your sport is much greater from 0-450lbs than it is in the 450lb-600lb gap.
    "It is not the critic who counts."

  11. #61
    Why not? EthanYQX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spld cyclist View Post
    It's interesting that people who do heavy weight training are always talking about lifts as a multiple of body weight, but those training for some other sport/activity usually don't. If you're training for an endurance sport, it's more a matter of how much strength is enough and at what point the costs of weight training (e.g. increased body weight and the time cost of weight training vs. time on the bike) outweigh the performance benefits. I'm not sure lifting multiples of body weight is a very relevant metric in that case.
    multiples of body weights are the closest thing to an even playing field we have. That's the only reason. It's obviously far from perfect but it's nice for a standard.

    Non strength athletes actually use the xBW metric much more often than strength athletes do. Power lifters who don't care about weight class generally use absolute lifts because they don't mind gaining weight to lift more weight and smaller power lifters generally use Wilks score since it's more relevant to their sport.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spld cyclist View Post
    For sprinting and track cycling, I agree that massive strength is valuable. For cycling and climbing on the flats, I guess my question is if it matters if the force of each pedal stroke is a small percentage vs. a tiny percentage of what the cyclist can squat or deadlift.
    The short answer is yes, up to a point. This is where we get into sport specific training. Strength is the most general of all qualities and limit strength is the most general adaptation of strength. If you're weak, you're better off getting strong (raising your limit strength) than you are working on strength-endurance, simply because gains in your limit strength are going to do more for you in both areas. Generally this is referred to as the "anatomical adaptation" phase in a periodized training program. 99% of rec athletes are, or should be, in this phase. This includes myself since I'm still capable of getting stronger fairly easily. If you're still capable of getting stronger fairly easily, you haven't reached the point of diminishing returns yet.

    The final point, as far as weight room time vs. time on the bike goes, you're absolutely right. Getting a squat PR should not interfere with your riding tomorrow or today. This is one of the reasons I'm not anti-belt for athletes.
    "It is not the critic who counts."

  12. #62
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EthanYQX View Post
    multiples of body weights are the closest thing to an even playing field we have. That's the only reason. It's obviously far from perfect but it's nice for a standard.

    Non strength athletes actually use the xBW metric much more often than strength athletes do. Power lifters who don't care about weight class generally use absolute lifts because they don't mind gaining weight to lift more weight and smaller power lifters generally use Wilks score since it's more relevant to their sport.



    The short answer is yes, up to a point. This is where we get into sport specific training. Strength is the most general of all qualities and limit strength is the most general adaptation of strength. If you're weak, you're better off getting strong (raising your limit strength) than you are working on strength-endurance, simply because gains in your limit strength are going to do more for you in both areas. Generally this is referred to as the "anatomical adaptation" phase in a periodized training program. 99% of rec athletes are, or should be, in this phase. This includes myself since I'm still capable of getting stronger fairly easily. If you're still capable of getting stronger fairly easily, you haven't reached the point of diminishing returns yet.

    The final point, as far as weight room time vs. time on the bike goes, you're absolutely right. Getting a squat PR should not interfere with your riding tomorrow or today. This is one of the reasons I'm not anti-belt for athletes.
    Except that multiple studies have concluded the opposite: the most bang for the buck is intervals, while trad weight lifting has been shown to have little if any benefit for cycling other than sprinting. Nonetheless, many do it. I even do it, but I live in the PNW and I can only take so much roller time in the winter.

    http://www.sportsci.org/jour/04/cdp.doc

    Core work on the other hand has obvious benefits for anyone who's suffered from back, shoulder, hip, etc. problems. Weights do have a replace in rehab. After getting a cast off, or rehabbing a knee injury or chrondo, a program of PT that uses weights wisely is good. The great thing about a core program is that, unlike trad weights, it doesn't cut into your cycling. One can do a core program in the morning and intervals in the afternoon, no problem.

    If one want to do weights anyway, my advice is to do your ride, including intervals, first, then lift. Never put aside a bike workout in favor of a weight workout. If you can't ride the same day and the day after doing weights, you're doing it wrong IMO&E. Unless you're a track rider or your team's sprinter.

  13. #63
    Why not? EthanYQX's Avatar
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    ...I didn't post anything that remotely resembles the opposite of that. I said strength is the most general adaptation. It is. If you want a stronger "core", the easiest and quickest way to do that is with free weights and a sensible program. Here's a suggestion, 4 sets of 30 reps like used in your study is not a sensible program.

    Intervals are a conditioning technique, mostly for the anaerobic-lactic system although possibly for the anaerobic-alactic system, depending on length and rest periods. They have nothing to do with strength training.
    "It is not the critic who counts."

  14. #64
    Senior Member GeorgeBMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EthanYQX View Post
    No, I am explaining the difference between training and exercise.

    However, most commercial Pilates or yoga classes are taught that way, yes. I have no Pilates experience but a fair amount of yoga experience and all of the yoga I did was more or less the same week after week. No real progression to higher skilled moves or more strength being require, once I managed to get through a class in probably the second week that was it, the adaptation stopped and stayed where it was. that was what I wanted since I used it for recovery, however.

    For the record, Crossfit falls under the same banner thanks to the "WOD" foolishness.

    How do you progress your Pilates training? I keep hearing that I don't know what I'm talking about, but I've explained my viewpoint and haven't seen an explanation from the Pilates crowd.
    You said that you did not want to progress -- and you got what you wished for.

    But both Pilates and Yoga have a wide range of movements and positions that progress from sub-beginner through highly advanced expert level. If you are simply taking group class, then the instructor will probably be teaching to the class and their overall abilities and willingness. If you are progressing faster than the class, then you may need to schedule a different class.

    Blaming Pilates for not progressing is like blaming the dumbbell for not progressing in your weight training. The fault, if there is one is yours. But then, you took the yoga class and got what you wanted out of it and quit.

    It sounds like yoga succeeded in helping you meet your goals and progress.
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  15. #65
    Why not? EthanYQX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
    You said that you did not want to progress -- and you got what you wished for.

    But both Pilates and Yoga have a wide range of movements and positions that progress from sub-beginner through highly advanced expert level. If you are simply taking group class, then the instructor will probably be teaching to the class and their overall abilities and willingness. If you are progressing faster than the class, then you may need to schedule a different class.

    Blaming Pilates for not progressing is like blaming the dumbbell for not progressing in your weight training. The fault, if there is one is yours. But then, you took the yoga class and got what you wanted out of it and quit.

    It sounds like yoga succeeded in helping you meet your goals and progress.
    Yoga succeeded in making me slightly less stiff the next day when I went to train. So does foam rolling. i quit due to time constraints, not for any other reason.

    Like I said already, it's possible to progress strength training using body weight movements. It's just not practical.
    "It is not the critic who counts."

  16. #66
    Senior Member wolfchild's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmontgomery87 View Post
    That's like saying gears are cheating in bike races.......
    Hey I don't even own any geared bikes anymore, I do all of my daily commuting, recreational and training rides on FG and SS...I really miss the velodrome, I wish there was one close by.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    If one want to do weights anyway, my advice is to do your ride, including intervals, first, then lift. Never put aside a bike workout in favor of a weight workout. If you can't ride the same day and the day after doing weights, you're doing it wrong IMO&E. Unless you're a track rider or your team's sprinter.
    Track riders do weights in the AM and miles later in the day. The logic is that miles doesn't require that much from the legs anyway, it's better to perfect form when slightly fatigued, and the ride speeds the recovery from the weight session. So there is really no reason to choose one over the other unless the issue is time. If you are doing 200+ mile rides like Carbonfiberboy this wouldn't apply, but for 98% of recreational cyclists there really is no downside.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EthanYQX View Post
    The little muscles in your "core" are trained through heavy compound movements. When I'm talking about barbell work I don't mean isolation work, I mean squats, presses and deadlifts. You are just as likely to fail a squat due to a weak back as you are due to weak legs.
    Over the years I've worked out with a number of competitive powerlifters, all fairly successful. The most surprising thing about their workouts, aside from the fact of how few set/reps they did, was the time spent on core work. This would be as much as 5 sets of 100+ body weight crunches, with the occasional set of 50+ incline crunches with a few 100 lb plates on the chest. It's absurdly simple, but I think this applies to all sports.

  19. #69
    Senior Member bmontgomery87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprince View Post
    Over the years I've worked out with a number of competitive powerlifters, all fairly successful. The most surprising thing about their workouts, aside from the fact of how few set/reps they did, was the time spent on core work. This would be as much as 5 sets of 100+ body weight crunches, with the occasional set of 50+ incline crunches with a few 100 lb plates on the chest. It's absurdly simple, but I think this applies to all sports.
    The core is very important to a tight setup and big lifts, especially for geared lifters. They may be fat, but most of them have very strong abs and spend a lot of time doing core work.

  20. #70
    Why not? EthanYQX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprince View Post
    Over the years I've worked out with a number of competitive powerlifters, all fairly successful. The most surprising thing about their workouts, aside from the fact of how few set/reps they did, was the time spent on core work. This would be as much as 5 sets of 100+ body weight crunches, with the occasional set of 50+ incline crunches with a few 100 lb plates on the chest. It's absurdly simple, but I think this applies to all sports.
    Lots of lifters will tell you to do weighted ab work every day. If you're losing lifts due to stability or having bike handling issues due to lack of tension in your abs, it's helpful to do that much, but for a cyclist the barbell lifts and some prehab work will probably suffice. It takes a surprising amount of ab strength to squat heavy weights.

    Quote Originally Posted by bmontgomery87 View Post
    The core is very important to a tight setup and big lifts, especially for geared lifters. They may be fat, but most of them have very strong abs and spend a lot of time doing core work.
    Hey, I'm not that fat yet...

    I kind of want to go up to 275lbs and get a bulletproof armor multi ply squat suit just to see how much weight I can move, but that would probably be highly unhealthy.
    "It is not the critic who counts."

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    Senior Member bmontgomery87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EthanYQX View Post
    Hey, I'm not that fat yet...

    I kind of want to go up to 275lbs and get a bulletproof armor multi ply squat suit just to see how much weight I can move, but that would probably be highly unhealthy.
    You'd probably add a few hundred pounds to your squat.
    Lots of lifters get 200-300 pounds from a suit.
    I can't get anything out of a deadlift suit, and I'm not strong enough to get anything from a bench shirt. But my singlesply squat suit made the weights a lot easier when I'd throw it on.

    Geared lifting sucks. Very painful, very time consuming. I want to make/miss a lift because of my strength, not because my technique wasn't perfect or my suit wasn't adjusted properly.

  22. #72
    Why not? EthanYQX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmontgomery87 View Post
    You'd probably add a few hundred pounds to your squat.
    Lots of lifters get 200-300 pounds from a suit.
    I can't get anything out of a deadlift suit, and I'm not strong enough to get anything from a bench shirt. But my singlesply squat suit made the weights a lot easier when I'd throw it on.

    Geared lifting sucks. Very painful, very time consuming. I want to make/miss a lift because of my strength, not because my technique wasn't perfect or my suit wasn't adjusted properly.
    At this point, I think the only way I'd get serious about geared lifting is if I thought it'd get me a 1000lb squat and I'm light years and probably 90lbs of body weight from that. As I get older, though, if my hips don't get any better soon I'll probably order a single ply suit and do heavy work in that with the straps down. A lot of my raw-lifter friends who squat super wide train in a suit to save their hips.
    "It is not the critic who counts."

  23. #73
    Senior Member bmontgomery87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EthanYQX View Post
    I'll probably order a single ply suit and do heavy work in that with the straps down. A lot of my raw-lifter friends who squat super wide train in a suit to save their hips.

    I did the same. I used a loose single ply anytime my hips were bothering me, and would occasionally do some heavy box squats with them on.
    They're also really nice to have if you pull sumo, you get a little bit of hip support and strength off the floor.

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