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  1. #26
    Senior Member GeorgeBMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carnivroar View Post
    Again, all you're doing is insulting others and providing no reason whatsoever for your disagreement. I already made it clear enough that this is not another LC vs HC discussion, and for your info, LC does not necessarily mean paleo. I eat tons of dairy which paleo, in theory, forbids. So please stop posting here before you get this thread closed as well.
    Please do not confuse lack of agreement with insults.

    I am am sorry that you are so invested in your diet that you feel you have to sell it to others and cannot tolerate any disagreement. But, when you mislead people please do not expect others to agree with you.

    Please keep your your sales pitches to the thread reserved for them: In case you had forgotten, it is called:
    LCHF/Paleo Wierdos....
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    I am a Paleo advocate but riding hard and long on this type of diet does not work for me. I have read plenty of research into diet and believe a Paleo diet is the best approach for me in general.

    I might start a long ride in a state of ketosis and do not eat before the start but once I get 30 minutes into it, I like to start eating my homemade Lim's rice cakes laced with local produced bacon, maple syrup, salt, egg, and sprinkled with parmesian cheese. I'll also choke down Cliff Bars and a maltodextrose/fructose drink in a 2/1 ratio. A pint of chocolate milk at a control is also nice.

    On say a 200 mile ride with say 15,000 feet of climbing, I probably burn around 9,000 calories (I am big) of which about 2,000 (probably less) were stored glycogen, 3,000 were converted from eating and 4,000 came from burning my fat. I try to eat 200-300 calories per hour and if I don't ride too hard and I keep the gut working, I can convert sufficient carbs into glycogen.

    I have ridden long distances over many weeks in a state of ketosis or just LCHF diet and it is not a high energy or a fast way to ride. Without glycogen, you are riding slow. Period.

  3. #28
    Senior Member carnivroar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
    Please do not confuse lack of agreement with insults.

    I am am sorry that you are so invested in your diet that you feel you have to sell it to others and cannot tolerate any disagreement. But, when you mislead people please do not expect others to agree with you.

    Please keep your your sales pitches to the thread reserved for them: In case you had forgotten, it is called:
    LCHF/Paleo Wierdos....
    Who's selling or misleading anyone here?

    AGAIN with the personal attacks.

    You know absolutely nothing of what you're talking about, and for the last time, stop posting here or I'll contact moderation.

    Just look at this other ridiculous post of yours in another thread. Who can take you seriously?

    It seems you REALLY have a thing against paleo folk - is it envy or what? Or anger that you've spent your whole life eating your government-sold bull****?

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
    And, add some legumes to that (assuming that the noodles are whole grain) and you have complete (aka "Quality") protein as well.

    Our trouble as westerners is: we believe a meal revolves around a piece of dead animal laying on our plate. And, if you take away the chunk of dead animal, all you have are side dishes.

    Other cultures never bought into that equation and eat nutritionally complete meals without relying on animal based fats and proteins to make a meal...
    Your ignorance is really amazing. Want to learn something? Maybe you should read this book. Nutrition and Physical Degeneration: Weston A. Price, Price-Pottenger Nutrition Foundation: 9780916764203: Amazon.com: Books

    See? I cite all my sources and back up my argument. What do YOU do?
    Last edited by carnivroar; 05-11-14 at 06:56 PM.

  4. #29
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    I have nothing against people eating tasty animals providing the animal lived a happy life in the wild and all of animal is consumed. I have trouble with caged/confined animals that are fed unnatural diets, hormones, and overdoses of antibiotics to maximize ROI.

    I can take criticism for my means of procurement from a Vegan but am less receptive to those who hunt at the grocery store for their meat.

  5. #30
    Senior Member carnivroar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weatherby View Post
    I might start a long ride in a state of ketosis and do not eat before the start but once I get 30 minutes into it, I like to start eating my homemade Lim's rice cakes laced with local produced bacon, maple syrup, salt, egg, and sprinkled with parmesian cheese. I'll also choke down Cliff Bars and a maltodextrose/fructose drink in a 2/1 ratio. A pint of chocolate milk at a control is also nice.
    What's a "long ride", in this case?

    During my ride, I only started feeling pain at 70 miles. The pain was sharp on my triceps, chest, neck, and some small blisters on my hands. Legs were fine though. I wasn't sore at all the next day, even rode 15 miles today.

    On rides such as these, I wouldn't consider eating neither before or during. On 100+ mile rides, I'd probably just eat some creamed coconut. Breakfast would still be strong coffee with coconut oil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Weatherby View Post
    Without glycogen, you are riding slow. Period.
    Again, what's "slow"? ~15 mph is my average on low traffic and ~17 on dedicated bike paths -- I think this is a good speed for my purposes therefore I feel no need to increase it.
    Last edited by carnivroar; 05-11-14 at 07:15 PM.

  6. #31
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    13 mph is slow.

    70 miles is not a long ride. I can do this distance without eating at all. The example I gave was 200 miles. Some consider long rides starting at 100 miles. I am planning either a 400k or 600k next weekend. There is no way I could do either on a Paleo diet.

    Fast and slow are relative to your capacity and fitness level.

    I used to be able to ride nearly indefinately at 14-16 mph burning fat on a LCHF diet and 20-22 mph when fueled with glycogen. These figures are probably 10-12 mph and 17-19mph now at my age and fitness level. I cannot make as much power at a given oxygen consumption level when burning fat as I can burning glycogen. Nobody can. I have been on a variety of low carb regimens over the past 30 years. If you enjoy riding in this state of depleted glocgen levels, more power to you. I don't.

    I have Nutivia virgin coconut oil in my coffee every morning, too.

  7. #32
    Senior Member IronHorseRiderX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carnivroar View Post
    What's a "long ride", in this case?
    It's not the length of your ride but overral intensity.
    What was your average HR (heart rate) for that ride?

    Quote Originally Posted by carnivroar View Post
    During my ride, I only started feeling pain at 70 miles. The pain was sharp on my triceps, chest, neck, and some small blisters on my hands. Legs were fine though. I wasn't sore at all the next day, even rode 15 miles today.
    That pain was probably from bad fit.
    Blisters?

    Quote Originally Posted by carnivroar View Post
    Again, what's "slow"? ~15 mph is my average on low traffic and ~17 on dedicated bike paths -- I think this is a good speed for my purposes therefore I feel no need to increase it.
    If your HR was low than it was "slow" - speed means nothing here as it will depend on your bike, riding conditions, fitness level etc.
    Body using fat as primary fuel source up to the certain heart rate - this is well know fact.
    If you stay at / below that HR you will be totally fine.

    You seems to suggest that your diet helping you to do something special while in fact you are only proving well known facts.

    There's no known link between type of your diet and your body ability to shift metabolism between burning fat vs glycogen.
    Many athletes tried high fat diet hoping they can tap into fat storage more and save glycogen for the final part of the race but it does not work that way.

    Afaik the best way to do so is to ride with no food at all - that eventually lead to better fat burning metabolism.
    I'll try to google those aticles I'm referring here, most of them about triathletes.

  8. #33
    Senior Member carnivroar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronHorseRiderX
    There's no known link between type of your diet and your body ability to shift metabolism between burning fat vs glycogen.
    But there is. It has been well observed that it takes time (weeks) to adjust to being in ketosis. I've been more or less eating low carb for the past 5 years so I'm pretty much 100% adapted. One will obviously get detrimental results in the beginning because it takes time to adapt. That's why people here think it's impossible to do century rides on low-carb and no food during the day. And what's ironic is that I've been accused of trying to "sell" low-carb when there's nothing to sell. You can't market low-carb because it requires little to no refueling. On the other hand, some would like you to believe you need a constant supply of energy and try to sell you sports drinks and gels and bars...

    The higher the intensity, the more glycogen is used. I'm not arguing that.

    No idea about my heart rate.
    Last edited by carnivroar; 05-11-14 at 09:44 PM.

  9. #34
    Senior Member GeorgeBMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carnivroar View Post
    Who's selling or misleading anyone here?

    AGAIN with the personal attacks.

    ....
    I think that describes you quite well...
    ... And, again, I am sorry that you cannot tolerate any disagreement with your LCHF/Paleo-Propaganda...

    But, go on... Keep trying to sell your fad diet if it makes you feel better. Just don't get all upset when others disagree with you or object to your attacks on other diets. Or, if it does upset you, then limit your posts to the LCHF/Paleo Wierdo's thread where disagreement with your Paleo-Proganda is banned...
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    I can do a century on low or no carbs, it will just take me more time than being fueled with glycogen.

    GeorgeBMac, your rhetoric is offensive.....why are you bothering to post in this thread.

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  12. #37
    Senior Member GeorgeBMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weatherby View Post
    ....

    GeorgeBMac, your rhetoric is offensive.....why are you bothering to post in this thread.
    I am merely responding to the attacks from Carnivoar... He sees any disagreement with his Pro-Paleo sales pitch as an attack on those diets -- and responds with personal attacks...

    As I remember, his attacks started when I corrected him when he said:
    "... some people here think that low-carb is extremely unhealthy and inadequate for this sort of cycling (long distance, moderate speed).
    ...
    Any other low-carb cyclist here? Please share your accomplishment."


    So, he not only makes misrepresentations but launches his personal attacks when those misrepresentations are corrected...

    I give him credit though: He is honest in his desire that only LCHF/Paleo followers should have a voice... But sorry, I do not agree with his desire to turn this forum into a sales tool for the LCHF/Paleo diets...

    If he wants to discuss the pros and cons of those diets, then he should expect others to disagree with his assertions. But he attacks any who disagree with him and then tries to assert that no disagreement is allowed.

    As I have said repeatedly: the "LCHF/Paleo Wierdos" thread was reserved for only pro-LCHF/Paleo posts, not the entire forum.
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  13. #38
    <riding now> BigAura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weatherby View Post
    13 mph is slow. 70 miles is not a long ride. I can do this distance without eating at all.
    +1. OP: Nothing wrong with your ride or speed, but to get on the internet and brag that it's related in someway to your diet is ludicrous.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
    It's not the low-carbs that make it unhealthy -- it is the stuff you eat instead of the carbs that promote heart disease and cancers...
    +1. OP: Your diet is a fad developed by people to sell books & products. Sadly, you could be risking your long-term health.

    Quote Originally Posted by carnivroar View Post
    Who's selling or misleading anyone here?....I cite all my sources and back up my argument. What do YOU do?
    Your diet is unhealthy.

    Sources:
    Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
    The Mayo Clinic
    The American Heart Association
    The Harvard School of Public Health
    Last edited by BigAura; 05-12-14 at 07:14 AM. Reason: added sources

  14. #39
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    This is the best part of cycling.

    Eating is kind of directly proportional to hours in the saddle. If you ride enough hours you can load your body with just about all the stuff your digestive system can handle and still look great and in shape. Then you can debate who is right or wrong, fast or slow and develop a nutrition religion of your own.

  15. #40
    Senior Member bmontgomery87's Avatar
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    What a mess of a thread.

    Congrats on the 78 mile ride, that's nothing to downplay on a single speed bicycle.
    But if you believe in your way of eating, then mentioning your diet shouldn't really come into play when talking about the ride.

    I don't post a thread about climbing hills or long rides while slamming carbs. I know what way of eating works for my body but find no need to prove it to other people.
    Loads of people can ride 100+ miles on low carb diets. But you aren't gonna find many pros that are eating low carb.

  16. #41
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmontgomery87 View Post
    Loads of people can ride 100+ miles on low carb diets. But you aren't gonna find many pros that are eating low carb.
    +1

    I did a century once on processed cheese slices and a couple cans of Ensure Plus. I had a root canal done earlier in the weekend and couldn't eat my usual century food so I had to find something I could eat. It wasn't ideal, but it got me through a slow century.

    Rowan also did a century without eating anything just to see if he could. Again, probably not ideal, but doable.


    I don't think anyone has said it couldn't be done ... it's just not the ideal way to cycle long distances.

  17. #42
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carnivroar View Post
    I eat less than 50 grams of carbs per day, moderate protein, and tons of fat (mostly saturated) usually from butter, cheese, coconut oil/milk, palm oil, pork belly, duck fat, olive oil, eggs... I also eat lots of low-carb veggies, really just okra and green beans. I also drink coffee everyday and eat lots of salt (sea, Himalayan, etc).
    How old are you and have you developed kidney stones yet?

    Do you have any family history of kidney stones?

  18. #43
    Senior Member carnivroar's Avatar
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    Quoting government agencies, very cute. Except that the "saturated fat and cholesterol are bad" myth/fad has been debunked a long time ago. The whole low-fat movement is the real fad here. I already cited my sources, unfortunately most of you chose to live in ignorance either because you're truly ignorant or because you can't accept that you've been misled your whole life. Maybe one day in the future the majority will stop believing fat is unhealthy, just like we stopped believing that air causes diseases and that the sun causes skin cancer. Well, some of us did, at least...

    Quote Originally Posted by Machka View Post
    How old are you and have you developed kidney stones yet?

    Do you have any family history of kidney stones?
    23; yes, my mother has had kidney stones and so did her brother. My dad has heart disease and has had a stroke.

    I'll just sit here and wait for the "it'll catch up with you when you get older, just watch".

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
    I am merely responding to the attacks from Carnivoar... He sees any disagreement with his Pro-Paleo sales pitch as an attack on those diets -- and responds with personal attacks...

    As I remember, his attacks started when I corrected him when he said:
    "... some people here think that low-carb is extremely unhealthy and inadequate for this sort of cycling (long distance, moderate speed).
    ...
    Any other low-carb cyclist here? Please share your accomplishment."


    So, he not only makes misrepresentations but launches his personal attacks when those misrepresentations are corrected...

    I give him credit though: He is honest in his desire that only LCHF/Paleo followers should have a voice... But sorry, I do not agree with his desire to turn this forum into a sales tool for the LCHF/Paleo diets...

    If he wants to discuss the pros and cons of those diets, then he should expect others to disagree with his assertions. But he attacks any who disagree with him and then tries to assert that no disagreement is allowed.

    As I have said repeatedly: the "LCHF/Paleo Wierdos" thread was reserved for only pro-LCHF/Paleo posts, not the entire forum.
    I started ONE thread about low-carb and you're complaining that I'm turning the whole forum into a "sales tool"? Really? Please, explain me your logic. How old are you? It's YOU who doesn't accept that others disagree with you, since you're trying to confine low-carb to that one paleo thread. Just kindly remove yourself from here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machka View Post
    I don't think anyone has said it couldn't be done ... it's just not the ideal way to cycle long distances.
    What exactly is not ideal? Not eating before? Maybe, but I would argue that being adapted to low-carb IS the most ideal for cycling long distances (100-150 miles) at reasonable speeds (15 mph). Low-carb prevents bonking as it does not rely primarily on glycogen and therefore minimizes the need to refuel. This is well documented.
    http://cyclingtips.com.au/2013/08/hi...-your-cycling/
    http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2011/...omment-page-1/

    Quote Originally Posted by bmontgomery87 View Post
    But if you believe in your way of eating, then mentioning your diet shouldn't really come into play when talking about the ride.
    Well, this subforum is called Training & Nutrition, so establishing a link between performance and diet IS the whole point, is it not.
    Last edited by carnivroar; 05-12-14 at 08:14 AM.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
    I think that describes you quite well...
    ... And, again, I am sorry that you cannot tolerate any disagreement with your LCHF/Paleo-Propaganda...

    But, go on... Keep trying to sell your fad diet if it makes you feel better. Just don't get all upset when others disagree with you or object to your attacks on other diets. Or, if it does upset you, then limit your posts to the LCHF/Paleo Wierdo's thread where disagreement with your Paleo-Proganda is banned...
    It is a oasis free of the haters

  20. #45
    Senior Member bmontgomery87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carnivroar View Post
    Quoting government agencies, very cute. Except that the "saturated fat and cholesterol are bad" myth/fad has been debunked a long time ago. The whole low-fat movement is the real fad here. I already cited my sources, unfortunately most of you chose to live in ignorance either because you're truly ignorant or because you can't accept that you've been misled your whole life.
    As someone who still eats carbs, I do actually agree here.
    The whole "saturated fat/cholesterol is bad" thing is indeed a myth. Lots of studies show that.

    You lost me on the air/skin cancer thing though??

    I basically eat what you eat, plus a large amount of bread, pasta and carbs. And while I think it will be the carbs that kill me, they're also what make me perform well and feel good.

  21. #46
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    It has been brought up during the rational discussion phase of these debates that carbs ingested during hard workouts are not processed into glycogen but 'burned off' immediately.

    No sure conclusions about that, but I do believe that for the keto adapted, like myself, it does not slow down the metabolizing of ketones for energy during moderate to high energy expenditure.

    I took a couple of bananas with me and ate them when I began to tire during the final hour of a hard ride.....I have to admit I did have a surge of energy, real or imagined, and probably will carry some starch with me on these type of rides. That was about 50g of carbs which is my usual intake for a whole day even when touring or on long casual rides

  22. #47
    Senior Member carnivroar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lenA View Post
    It has been brought up during the rational discussion phase of these debates that carbs ingested during hard workouts are not processed into glycogen but 'burned off' immediately.

    No sure conclusions about that, but I do believe that for the keto adapted, like myself, it does not slow down the metabolizing of ketones for energy during moderate to high energy expenditure.

    I took a couple of bananas with me and ate them when I began to tire during the final hour of a hard ride.....I have to admit I did have a surge of energy, real or imagined, and probably will carry some starch with me on these type of rides. That was about 50g of carbs which is my usual intake for a whole day even when touring or on long casual rides
    Fair enough. This guy ran 52 or so miles this past week. Timothy Allen Olson Ultra Trail Mountain Runner He eats ~100% paleo and relatively low-carb. Nutrition Timothy Allen Olson He says he eats more carbs before a race.

    Now here's some REAL discussion, what I was looking for! Could I, even as fully keto-adapted, benefit from some carbs during my long rides without compromising ketosis? Any advantages over coconut oil (i.e. MCT)? First I'll do a 100 mile without it and see how it goes.
    Last edited by carnivroar; 05-12-14 at 08:32 AM.

  23. #48
    Administrator CbadRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
    The Low Carb/Paleo Wierdos thread is alive and well and disagreement is prohibited in that thread.

    Indeed that thread is alive and well, so the OP will need to continue his discussion in that existing thread. This thread is closed.
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    So Tom only hires people that are nutty? Is part of the requirement to be a moderator on this site is that you have to be nuts??
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