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  1. #26
    just another gosling Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
    +1

    But I would add that the Schroth method ("Three Dimensional Treatment for Scoliosis") believes that BOTH sides are weak -- that one is over-contracted and the other over-extended but that both are weak. And again, correcting the imbalances in the hips is a pre-requisite for correcting the spinal deformity.

    For Bulevardi, the hips are especially implicated from his trouble walking: the tendon/muscle tightness in the hips is pulling on his spine and causing back pain.

    For him, as probably for most with scoliosis, the scoliosis is not the problem, it is the result of their hip problems.

    But, when you see an orthopedist for it, they tend to ignore any and all muscle tendon problems and focus strictly on the curved spinal column and tell the patient that the only solution is bracing and surgical. They will tell him that stretching and strengthening can sometimes alleviate pain but are worthless to solve the problem. Specifically, their position is that stretching and strengthening therapies "have not been shown to be effective". Actually, there have simply not been any conclusive RCTs to demonstrate it one way or the other. But then, they and their society (the "SRS" - Scoliosis Research Society) make their money from "fixing" backs through surgical means -- so that will be the "solution" that they push.
    Is there a book about this, with exercises, etc., like the Core Advantage book I'm always touting? I agree about the docs, but not so much about the reason. I think docs really want to help regardless of the financials, but everything looks like a nail. They don't have the tools for a long-term approach. This kind of thing is really hard to demonstrate in an RCT.

  2. #27
    Senior Member GeorgeBMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
    Is there a book about this, with exercises, etc., like the Core Advantage book I'm always touting? I agree about the docs, but not so much about the reason. I think docs really want to help regardless of the financials, but everything looks like a nail. They don't have the tools for a long-term approach. This kind of thing is really hard to demonstrate in an RCT.
    "Three Dimensional Treatment for Scoliosis" by Schroth
    It's old, but still practiced by a few scoliosis clinics.
    --------------------------------------
    bikes: 1992 Cannondale R500, 2012 Trek DS 8.5, 2008 LeMond Poprad

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by dm83 View Post
    That is one ignorant neurosurgeon. Does he lift weights on machines ?
    Hmmm, do you have any qualifications for making such statement? Maybe, repaired the backs of a few infantry soldiers? How about some athletes? Anyone? Have you done any kind of work with athletes? My neurosurgeon has done all that; very successfully I might add.

    In fact deadlifts are hard on the back just like any other exercise that does not follow good lifting practice as taught by workplace safety people.

  4. #29
    Senior Member hermanchauw's Avatar
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    Get overall strong. Squat and deadlift. My coach and boss who has 10 slipped discs lifts the heaviest in my gym and he is pain free.

    Herman Chauw
    Movement coach, strength & conditioning coach, rehab therapist

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coachtj Cormier View Post
    Yeah That's for sure. Anyone who has lifted properly can tell that Dead lifts are NOT a back exercise (unless done wrong) Yes there is some recuirtment of some lower back muscles (Erector Spinea) but that's mostly for stabilization. Same with Squats if you're feeling it in low back you're 1)doing it wrong,2)tired,3) too much weight.
    Deadlift absolutely is a back exercise. Your back articulates from a bent over position to vertical, your legs aren't doing that. Lower and middle back are major movers on a deadlift though the glutes and hamstrings are certainly factors too. The key however is to lift with a neutral spine. The spine can be kept neutral while the back lifts the weight. Other good options are hyperextensions and good mornings. For any of these lifts you need to be cautious to hold your breath on the high effort portion. This allows your posture to stay more rigid and your core to stabilize the spine in a neutral position.

    I've recently dropped back squats in favor of deadlift and dumbbell front squat. I found that training heavy deadlift and back squat in same session was too taxing. A front squat with a single db propped in front of works the core very well (as would any front squat). I like using a 100 lb DB and doing 10-20 reps of deep front squats. 100 lbs with a DB on front squat is actually IMO just as challenging as a back squat at nearly 200.

    I am a big fan of the sumo deadlift. I have long legs and sumo deadlift is simpler because you spend less focus on getting the bar to move around your leg.
    http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/...oDeadlift.html
    Last edited by Wiggle; 06-06-14 at 11:03 AM.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiggle View Post
    Deadlift absolutely is a back exercise. Your back articulates from a bent over position to vertical, your legs aren't doing that. Lower and middle back are major movers on a deadlift though the glutes and hamstrings are certainly factors too. The key however is to lift with a neutral spine. The spine can be kept neutral while the back lifts the weight. Other good options are hyperextensions and good mornings. For any of these lifts you need to be cautious to hold your breath on the high effort portion. This allows your posture to stay more rigid and your core to stabilize the spine in a neutral position.

    I've recently dropped back squats in favor of deadlift and dumbbell front squat. I found that training heavy deadlift and back squat in same session was too taxing. A front squat with a single db propped in front of works the core very well (as would any front squat). I like using a 100 lb DB and doing 10-20 reps of deep front squats. 100 lbs with a DB on front squat is actually IMO just as challenging as a back squat at nearly 200.

    I am a big fan of the sumo deadlift. I have long legs and sumo deadlift is simpler because you spend less focus on getting the bar to move around your leg.
    Barbell Sumo Deadlift
    Don't post here much no time. But while there isn't a lot of black and white when it comes to exercise this is one of those times when there is some
    Deadlifts (Romainian & Russian) Are not for the back I stand by what I said yes there is recruitment of some back muscles for stabilzation
    We have this dissussion with many of our new " ExPHys students and I think it dates back to old school body-builders (the ones with bad backs) ,these are often the same guys who do behind the neck Lat-Pull downs ( then complain of shoulder & neck pain go figure).
    If you lo ok athowyou do these (from a Bio-mechcanicanil point) you'll see that the Hamstrings (& Glute med/max) should be doing the work. Not the smaller back muscles. Most time people use thier back as the Glute(medis) and Hamstrings are weak so they wind up using the back and this is where the risk of injury sky rockets. The other point is prorper back position: in my experience those who use these exercises for the back have poor back position (rounding of the mid back) Also as most cyclists (and people in general that sit a lot) have tight Hamstrings so they have a very hard time firing those muscles.
    Some good resources are the NSCA web site (National Stength and Condioning Assoc) and the ACE Personal trainers hand book.
    While the EXRX site has some good info not all is up to date.
    On a personal/bio-mechcanical level not a big fan of sumo-squats as I feel they put too much stress on the inner hips I much prefer to have the joints pretty much "stacked". Better stability lower risk. The gains from doing them is not worth the risk and I don't perscibe them to clients but that's just me.
    In closing have you ever heard the expression " Lift with your legs not your back"
    Coach TJ Cormier NSCA-CPT/USAC Level1 Coach

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coachtj Cormier View Post
    Deadlifts (Romainian & Russian) Are not for the back I stand by what I said yes there is recruitment of some back muscles for stabilzation
    We have this dissussion with many of our new " ExPHys students and I think it dates back to old school body-builders (the ones with bad backs) ,these are often the same guys who do behind the neck Lat-Pull downs ( then complain of shoulder & neck pain go figure).
    If you lo ok athowyou do these (from a Bio-mechcanicanil point) you'll see that the Hamstrings (& Glute med/max) should be doing the work. Not the smaller back muscles. Most time people use thier back as the Glute(medis) and Hamstrings are weak so they wind up using the back and this is where the risk of injury sky rockets. The other point is prorper back position: in my experience those who use these exercises for the back have poor back position (rounding of the mid back) Also as most cyclists (and people in general that sit a lot) have tight Hamstrings so they have a very hard time firing those muscles.
    Some good resources are the NSCA web site (National Stength and Condioning Assoc) and the ACE Personal trainers hand book.
    While the EXRX site has some good info not all is up to date.
    On a personal/bio-mechcanical level not a big fan of sumo-squats as I feel they put too much stress on the inner hips I much prefer to have the joints pretty much "stacked". Better stability lower risk. The gains from doing them is not worth the risk and I don't perscibe them to clients but that's just me.
    In closing have you ever heard the expression " Lift with your legs not your back"
    Romainian deadlifts are great for the back, as "recruitment of some back muscles for stabilization" is the whole point. It's a great exercise for the hamstrings, and lengthens the hamstrings as well.

    However it's important to point out that "back pain" is not a specific condition and there is no one exercise that would be of benefit for all back issues.

  8. #33
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    Coach,
    I see what you're saying. I think we generally agree it's perhaps just the percentages of effort coming from back versus legs we are differing on, not a big deal though. The posterior chain works together and the amount of effort from the different muscles will depend alot on the lifters existing strengths.
    Yeah sumo squats tend to be hit or miss depending on your body type, I know some people have said they also do not like the inwards forces it can place on the knees.

  9. #34
    Senior Member hermanchauw's Avatar
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    Deadlift is a both a back exercise and not a back exercise.

    Yes because the spinal erectors are contracting isometrically. So you could say that you are training to get a stronger isometric contraction.

    No because the spinal erectors are contracting isometrically. The prime movers are the glutes and hamstrings.

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