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Old 05-28-14, 07:53 PM   #26
Dave Cutter
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Originally Posted by bmontgomery87 View Post
Then you can add in the fact that almost all of the soy in the US is genetically modified.....
Hasn't ALL human food been genetically modified over the centuries? (the answer is YES) Finding faster methods... and slapping a patent on the seed stock.. may make people wonder about a legal system that allows everyone to sue everyone else. But food remains food.
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Old 05-28-14, 08:32 PM   #27
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Hasn't ALL human food been genetically modified over the centuries? (the answer is YES) Finding faster methods... and slapping a patent on the seed stock.. may make people wonder about a legal system that allows everyone to sue everyone else. But food remains food.
I think part of the problem with the GMO's is that nobody outside of Monsanto really understands what kind of modifications they are making -- so it is the unkown. I.e., is that tomato really a tomato?

But also, most of the GMO's are done to make the plants 'Round Up Ready' which means that they get flooded with pesticides -- and we get to eat not only the Round Up (don't worry -- Monsanto says its harmless!), but also the excessive weed killers they sprayed on the plants. On some plants you can wash it off -- but (I think) not on those that have been waxed.
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Old 05-28-14, 09:02 PM   #28
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I think part of the problem with the GMO's is that nobody outside of Monsanto really understands what kind of modifications they are making -- so it is the unkown. I.e., is that tomato really a tomato?
Actually native Americans spend thousands of years screwing with their genetic make-up before Monsanto. And so has every other culture in the world. I guess if you remove yourself far enough from the food supply... it can seem like a mystery... but it isn't.

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But also, most of the GMO's are done to make the plants 'Round Up Ready' which means that they get flooded with pesticides ......., but also the excessive weed killers they sprayed on the plants. On some plants you can wash it off -- but (I think) not on those that have been waxed.
That is completely silly! Has nothing to do with actual food production... ANYWHERE. There are plenty of reasons to dislike Monsanto... but making up stuff isn't productive. The idea of flooding foods with pesticides... who do you know that would do such a thing... even if it made economic sense (which OF COURSE it doesn't).

That stuff is like the old McDonalds erythorbate hoax. Crazy stuff. Like people would feed other people worms for profit. A good healthy suspicion is good. But when we let our imaginations wanderer to where we distrust our food supply.... well lets just say that's not good.

The only foods I am aware of off hand that receive "wax" are apples. And they receive a fine palm tree oil coating (wax). Natural... not a big deal.. replaces the apples natural oil washed off in processing.

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Old 05-28-14, 10:18 PM   #29
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Actually native Americans spend thousands of years screwing with their genetic make-up before Monsanto. And so has every other culture in the world. I guess if you remove yourself far enough from the food supply... it can seem like a mystery... but it isn't.



That is completely silly! Has nothing to do with actual food production... ANYWHERE. There are plenty of reasons to dislike Monsanto... but making up stuff isn't productive. The idea of flooding foods with pesticides... who do you know that would do such a thing... even if it made economic sense (which OF COURSE it doesn't).

That stuff is like the old McDonalds erythorbate hoax. Crazy stuff. Like people would feed other people worms for profit. A good healthy suspicion is good. But when we let our imaginations wanderer to where we distrust our food supply.... well lets just say that's not good.

The only foods I am aware of off hand that receive "wax" are apples. And they receive a fine palm tree oil coating (wax). Natural... not a big deal.. replaces the apples natural oil washed off in processing.
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The herbicide glyphosate has more than doubled in use, from 85-90 million pounds in 2001 to 180-185 million pounds in 2007. According to a report from the Organic Center, this increase is likely a reflection of the rising popularity of Monsanto's RoundUp Ready genetically modified crops. (Glyphosate is the active ingredient of RoundUp.)
At long last: EPA releases pesticide use statistics | Pesticide Action Network

Note that this information is 6 years out of date. Glyphosate use has increased on RoundUp ready crops because the pesticide has created glyphosate-resistant weeds. The usage is forecast to rise, with the rate of rise increasing.

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Contrary to often-repeated claims that today’s genetically-engineered crops have, and are reducing pesticide use, the spread of glyphosate-resistant weeds in herbicide-resistant weed management systems has brought about substantial increases in the number and volume of herbicides applied. If new genetically engineered forms of corn and soybeans tolerant of 2,4-D are approved, the volume of 2,4-D sprayed could drive herbicide usage upward by another approximate 50%. The magnitude of increases in herbicide use on herbicide-resistant hectares has dwarfed the reduction in insecticide use on Bt crops over the past 16 years, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.
Environmental Sciences Europe | Full text | Impacts of genetically engineered crops on pesticide use in the U.S. -- the first sixteen years

I don't find the GMO aspects of the crops themselves to be inherently bad, however their environmental and economic effects don't seem benign to me.
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Old 05-29-14, 03:06 AM   #30
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185 million pounds, eh? That is an interesting trick in making something look much worse than what it really is.

Convert that to tons, and it is 82,589. That, in the grand scale of things, is not that much.

We use glyphosate on the farm where I work. It is used sparingly. The idea that is promoted by the anti-glyphosate people is that it is being used in high percentages. It is not. There is an optimum amount that is to be used to have the maximum effect. Pouring more on doesn't improve its kill rate.

I have just finished a course to certify me in use of agricultural chemicals. A key to determining the effect of a chemical is the LD50 and based on that, glyphosate is less toxic than salt and much less toxic than caffeine. Would I drink it neat? No, but I don't have any particular issue in using it.

Yes, there are quite significant issues with resistance to chemicals. There is a general policy for orchardists like us of rotating through different categories of sprays to avoid this resistance factor, and these include herbicides and fungicides. I don't know what herbicides that Monsanto's crops are resistant to, but if it's only Round-Up/glysophate, then that's an issue for Monsanto and its contracted farmers to sort out, and may end up biting them on the arse for the issues that have been highlighted. But there are other herbicides that can be used.

As to the presence of chemicals on fruit that can be washed off when bought -- not in my experience. In order to deliver fruit to market, there are specified withholding periods for any spray that is used. Some export markets require more than a doubling of the labelled withholding period. In our case, some cherries aren't sprayed with fungicides for up to three months, which leaves us at great risk of crop failure... but that is what countries such as Japan and China demand.

Fruit (I know a little about this) usually is picked and sent to a pack house where it goes through several water baths before it is sorted and packed. Sometimes fruit such as apples and oranges are waxed. There might be residues left of something such as kaolin clay which is used in some places for sunburn protection on apples (yes, I worked on a property where this happened).

There are other much more toxic chemicals that are being used out there. In Australia, there are quite strict controls on them and how they are used. Hence my ChemCert qualification. I don't know about the US. However, to paint a broadbrush negative picture is not fair to other countries that go about using such chemicals responsibly.

There also is a lot of misinformation about GM. Genetic modification has been going on virtually since the first plant farming started. How do people think seedless grapes and watermelon came about? And the different varieties of fruit and vegetables, and even flowers?

Farmers have a self interest in ensuring that their livelihoods are preserved and advanced. There is a huge divide in understanding by city people as to what constitutes responsible farming, and what actually happens out there.

Oh, and I do agree with the concept that a home gardener with access to off-the-shelf chemicals that are essentially the same as used on farms is a person who is much more dangerous to themselves and their environment.
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Old 05-29-14, 03:22 AM   #31
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Actually native Americans spend thousands of years screwing with their genetic make-up before Monsanto. And so has every other culture in the world. I guess if you remove yourself far enough from the food supply... it can seem like a mystery... but it isn't.



That is completely silly! Has nothing to do with actual food production... ANYWHERE. There are plenty of reasons to dislike Monsanto... but making up stuff isn't productive. The idea of flooding foods with pesticides... who do you know that would do such a thing... even if it made economic sense (which OF COURSE it doesn't).

That stuff is like the old McDonalds erythorbate hoax. Crazy stuff. Like people would feed other people worms for profit. A good healthy suspicion is good. But when we let our imaginations wanderer to where we distrust our food supply.... well lets just say that's not good.

The only foods I am aware of off hand that receive "wax" are apples. And they receive a fine palm tree oil coating (wax). Natural... not a big deal.. replaces the apples natural oil washed off in processing.
I should have said 'herbicide' rather than 'pesticide'.

But, it is far from being "made up". "Round Up Ready" is a Monsanto marketing phrase they use to sell their seeds. The plants grown from their seeds are immune to Round Up so the farmers can spray it as much as they like -- it kills all plant life except that which grew from the Monsanto seeds. So, you can expect that the GMO produce that you buy has been dowsed with far more herbicide than 'regular' produce.

As for the "Unkown" factor of GMO's: Monsanto and the like keep their genetic modifications under tight security and they are not reviewed by any third party or impartial government agency for their short or long term implications. If you trust Monsanto with your health, then there is no worry there. I don't.

I admit that my fear of the wax coating placed on vegetables is based on my own logic rather than science or studies. The "science" says that the wax is harmless. And, it probably is. But I worry about the pesticides and that they spray on the plants and trees and then seal in with the wax. It's not the wax that I worry about (although I would prefer not to eat it), but what is underneath the wax. But, since the wax cannot be easily washed off, whatever is underneath it tends to stay underneath it (until you eat it).

So, I have taken to soaking all of my produce in warm vinegar water for 10-15 minutes and then washing it well. Now my peppers, apples, cucumbers, peppers and such look and feel the way they should -- instead of that smooth, slippery, shiny way they come from the grocery shelf.
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Old 05-29-14, 04:29 AM   #32
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Hasn't ALL human food been genetically modified over the centuries? (the answer is YES) Finding faster methods... and slapping a patent on the seed stock.. may make people wonder about a legal system that allows everyone to sue everyone else. But food remains food.

That's kind of like comparing natural selection to growing a baby in a petri dish.
Yes, people have selected plants that grow well in their climates, created hybrids, kept heirloom seeds, etc for years and years. That's far different from modifying a plant to be resistant to poison so a company can convince people that they should cover their fields in Roundup.

I'm not saying that all GMO food will kill you and it's inherently evil. I'm saying that I won't spend my money, which I think is a vote of support, on anything GMO because it is helping perpetuate the problem.

Farmers can grow without herbicide and without GMO seeds.

I think the simple fact that most other countries don't allow it should be enough to say that we're doing something wrong here in the states. Monsanto owns a lot of politicians here.
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Old 05-29-14, 07:16 AM   #33
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George is correct.
No... if you take the time to read the post... and the link you posted.... INcorrect is the proper term. I understand some peoples fear and lack of food production knowledge. But that fear and ignorance.... doesn't make for an industry danger.

IF those who oppose the use of modern farming are successful in limiting food production by means of fear and lies. Literally millions and MILLIONS of people world wide will starve. Many will starve to death! Almost all who starve will have brown or black skin. I believe that is the goal of those who have created these lies about the food supply.

I think people who spread these lies... are tools of those who know better. You're not a bad person because you know nothing about agriculture. But being part of a effort to kill off the worlds needy.... maybe that is just WRONG.

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Old 05-29-14, 07:25 AM   #34
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That's kind of like comparing natural selection to growing a baby in a petri dish.
Yes, people have selected plants that grow well in their climates, created hybrids, kept heirloom seeds, etc for years and years. That's far different from modifying a plant to be resistant to poison so a company can convince people that they should cover their fields in Roundup.
Please explain.... where and when that happened? Other... than in Internet posts based on fears and speculation that is? Our science is not yet able to "grow babies in petri dishes".... or to create the plants you think/fear have been created. Modern science allows for a much faster selection process.... but the old pollination processes are still the way we make... BOTH babies and plants.

Round up.... is a VERY old product... that has been used since before most people was ever born. Apparently... you are completely unfamiliar with the product and it's uses.
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Old 05-29-14, 07:40 AM   #35
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I should have said 'herbicide' rather than 'pesticide'.
Why?!?!?!? Why should you have used one term instead of the other? Do you no longer fear pesticide's?!?!? So you'd feed your baby a pesticide as long as a herbicide wasn't used instead of a tilling process?

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But, it is far from being "made up". "Round Up Ready" is a Monsanto marketing phrase they use to sell their seeds. The plants grown from their seeds are immune to Round Up.
No.... round up ready seeds have a thin clay-like coating that protects the seeds for the 5 day period that round up lasts. The sun bio-degrades round up very quickly. By being able to cover more farm land in less time and expending less fuel.... means farmers can help feed literally maybe a BILLION people that otherwise... might not find enough to eat.

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As for the "Unkown" factor of GMO's: Monsanto and the like keep their genetic modifications under tight security and they are not reviewed by any third party or impartial government agency for their short or long term implications. If you trust Monsanto with your health, then there is no worry there. I don't.
Actually I don't trust Monsanto or any so-called "impartial government agency". But the science you THINK might exist.... doesn't. God makes plants not corporations (or humans).

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I admit that my fear of..............
Yes... fear. It's always fear.

IMHO... you should [instead] fear being used as a tool by those with nefarious ideals. Arm yourself with enough agricultural knowledge that you can cast off your fears... of the unknown. I think it's great that you care... and I have sympathies for everyone in fear. Fear is a crappy place to live in. Fortunately... in this case... knowledge of the farming industry will/would/could eliminate all fears of the [American] food supply.

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Old 05-29-14, 08:00 AM   #36
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Please explain.... where and when that happened? Other... than in Internet posts based on fears and speculation that is? Our science is not yet able to "grow babies in petri dishes".... or to create the plants you think/fear have been created. Modern science allows for a much faster selection process.... but the old pollination processes are still the way we make... BOTH babies and plants.

Round up.... is a VERY old product... that has been used since before most people was ever born. Apparently... you are completely unfamiliar with the product and it's uses.
I wasn't saying that had happened, I was stating that's how apples to oranges your comparison was.

Round up is a very old product, that doesn't make it an okay product. Agent Orange is also very old.....
I'm quite familiar with pesticides and herbicides and their uses. I was born on a farm in the country, and a large portion of the food I ate came from my grandfather's garden, the stream, and the woods.
The bottom line is pesticides/herbicides aren't necessary to grow food, and they are harmful when ingested. Spraying them on large fields leads to those chemicals entering ground water.

As far as the science not being there, why have tons of other countries banned Monsanto products and/or GMOs?
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Old 05-29-14, 08:01 AM   #37
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The only reason I even brought up Monsanto was because of their business practices, not health aspects bestowed upon us. I adamantly disagree with Dave Cutter, but this is a clear pissing contest and can only be argued with statistics that lean in directions, but prove nothing.

I just want to be able to grow heirloom wheat in my back yard without Monsanto funded gov't employees and lawyers burning my ***** down.
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Old 05-29-14, 08:21 AM   #38
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As far as the science not being there, why have tons of other countries banned Monsanto products and/or GMOs?
I explained that in my posts... if you read them. But a handful of Euro-Socialist that are anti-American trade... has little or nothing to do with food. Sorry you think mad-scientists are creating strange super plants that require evil chemicals to grow. That sort of sounds like a Captain Planet Episode to me.

You are absolutely correct when you posted that: The bottom line is pesticides/herbicides aren't necessary to grow food. We only need modern farming for farmers to grow enough food... to feed everyone. If we are willing to let a fifth of the worlds population starve.... we can revert back to farming the way we did before WW2.
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Old 05-29-14, 08:29 AM   #39
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The only reason I even brought up Monsanto was because of their business practices, .
I don't know a person anywhere that like the Monsanto business practices. Their efforts have been over the top against farmers and made Monsanto the icon of a poor business model.

Sorry you disagree with me! I have absolutely no idea... what I posted that could be disagreed with. The hoaxes about dangerous GMO plants... have been exposed as fraud over and over and over again. Everyone with an Internet connection can search a hoax. It doesn't matter if you agaee with ME... or anyone. Hoax is hoax.
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Old 05-29-14, 08:43 AM   #40
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If you can't tolerate lactose, then yes it is better for you than regular milk. About a zillion babies have been raised on it with no ill effects. The estrogen thing is BS, based on a faulty understanding of the science. There are no proven bad effects.
Effect of Soymilk Consumption on Serum Estrogen and Androgen Concentrations in Japanese Men
"The duration of soymilk-supplementation may have been too short to bring about the substantial changes in hormone concentrations in men. Larger and longer-term soy intervention studies are needed to investigate the effect of soy intake on endogenous hormone concentrations in men."
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Old 05-29-14, 08:47 AM   #41
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just plowed through a pint of ricotta. sooooo good.
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Old 05-29-14, 08:57 AM   #42
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Are you being paid by Monsanto, or do you just hate organic food?
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Old 05-29-14, 09:10 AM   #43
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Are you being paid by Monsanto, or do you just hate organic food?
I suspect the former. If not, he should be.
... He is clearly arguing from an ideology rather than facts

I am still laughing at his contention that there is no connection between GMO's and Round Up -- and that other countries ban GMO's because they are anti-American socialists.
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Old 05-29-14, 10:47 AM   #44
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And here I was thinking he was an FDA/USDA agent.
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Old 05-29-14, 10:58 AM   #45
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I am still laughing at his contention that there is no connection between GMO's and Round Up -- and that other countries ban GMO's because they are anti-American socialists.
That's the norm these days.
Everything anti-American = socialist.
Any progressive idea = socialist.


(please no political arguments, i'm just having fun)
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Old 05-29-14, 11:47 AM   #46
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The bottom line is pesticides/herbicides aren't necessary to grow food. [/I]We only need modern farming for farmers to grow enough food... to feed everyone. If we are willing to let a fifth of the worlds population starve.... we can revert back to farming the way we did before WW2.
Oh please. Tell me about it. So, people don't starve because we use herbicide/pesticide? people don't starve because, oh, we produce enough food for the entire global population with GMO technology? Oh please. Just read some news. Take a look around you. Here in US, the richest country in the world, 15 million children are food insecure. They starve because they cannot "afford" it.

More than anything what this huge surplus of soy and corn, Monsanto's favourite children, did was to add fructose syrup to EVERYTHING and add alcohol to gasoline. Otherwise they will all go to waste. For some reason huge subsidies was given to these farms that causes worse health for everyone in America.

And please, do not even talk about how people "genetically modified" plants from way back. Yes they bred plants. Yes, they saw a desirable trait (like banana with less seeds) that OCCURRED NATURALLY and tried to select the trait and bred more banana trees with less seeds. It is a long process, taking centuries and we are working WITH what nature gave us.

Now GMO technology is very different. Scientist specifically CREATED and INSERTED genes into these plants. For example Monsanto inserted a antibiotic producing gene from a bacteria to corn plants to resist diseases. The problem is we do not understand fully what inserted gene will do beside that. We do not have that full understanding of how a changed genome can work. And this human modification is WAY TOO FAST if you compare it to natural selection and mutation. We are playing god and it's our ecosystem on the line. These plants become super plants and kills off they "less evovled" cousin.

Best of all, FDA recognized GMO food as GRAS( generally regard as safe) without ANY testing because, oh, DNA and genes have always existed in plants. It doesn't matter to them if Monsanto just add "a little extra". This enrages me to no ends. To the FDA, putting antibiotic producing gene belonging to bacterias into corn plants is just fine and require no testing. Just splendid. How marvelous.
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Old 05-29-14, 01:42 PM   #47
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Oh please. Tell me about it. So, people don't starve because we use herbicide/pesticide? people don't starve because, oh, we produce enough food for the entire global population with GMO technology? Oh please. Just read some news. Take a look around you. Here in US, the richest country in the world, 15 million children are food insecure. They starve because they cannot "afford" it.

More than anything what this huge surplus of soy and corn, Monsanto's favourite children, did was to add fructose syrup to EVERYTHING and add alcohol to gasoline. Otherwise they will all go to waste. For some reason huge subsidies was given to these farms that causes worse health for everyone in America.

And please, do not even talk about how people "genetically modified" plants from way back. Yes they bred plants. Yes, they saw a desirable trait (like banana with less seeds) that OCCURRED NATURALLY and tried to select the trait and bred more banana trees with less seeds. It is a long process, taking centuries and we are working WITH what nature gave us.

Now GMO technology is very different. Scientist specifically CREATED and INSERTED genes into these plants. For example Monsanto inserted a antibiotic producing gene from a bacteria to corn plants to resist diseases. The problem is we do not understand fully what inserted gene will do beside that. We do not have that full understanding of how a changed genome can work. And this human modification is WAY TOO FAST if you compare it to natural selection and mutation. We are playing god and it's our ecosystem on the line. These plants become super plants and kills off they "less evovled" cousin.

Best of all, FDA recognized GMO food as GRAS( generally regard as safe) without ANY testing because, oh, DNA and genes have always existed in plants. It doesn't matter to them if Monsanto just add "a little extra". This enrages me to no ends. To the FDA, putting antibiotic producing gene belonging to bacterias into corn plants is just fine and require no testing. Just splendid. How marvelous.

Well said...
... It MIGHT be fine. It MIGHT be safe. But the odds are against it. And, even if it is safe today, where does it end up tomorrow? Monsanto (and the their cousins) have been given authority to do whatever they want -- and, because they have blocked all efforts in the U.S. to even label their stuff, we probably won't even know it.
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Old 05-29-14, 04:09 PM   #48
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...... people don't starve because, oh, we produce enough food for the entire global population with GMO technology? Oh please. Just read some news. Take a look around you. Here in US, the richest country in the world, 15 million children are food insecure. They starve because they cannot "afford" it.
So... you're "pro" starving? That's interesting. Or do you just want it both ways.... grow far less food... at much greater prices... yet everyone still eats?

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More than anything what this huge surplus of soy and corn, Monsanto's favourite children, did was to add fructose syrup to EVERYTHING and add alcohol to gasoline. Otherwise they will all go to waste. For some reason huge subsidies was given to these farms that causes worse health for everyone in America.
I am also anti-alcohol fuels! Food is for eating... NOT for powering automobiles. But Monsanto didn't do that our government did (BOTH party's). And Monsanto isn't in the packaged food business... they have NO corn syrup receipts. BTW... where is this HUGE surplus of corn and soybeans kept?

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And please, do not even talk about how people "genetically modified" plants from way back. Yes they bred plants. Yes, they saw a desirable trait (like banana with less seeds) that OCCURRED NATURALLY and tried to select the trait and bred more banana trees with less seeds. It is a long process, taking centuries and we are working WITH what nature gave us.
The processes continued for century's.... it didn't "TAKE" centuries. How stupid do you think humans were before you? Didn't you study Mendel?!?!?!

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Now GMO technology is very different. Scientist specifically CREATED and INSERTED genes into these plants. For example Monsanto inserted a antibiotic producing gene from a bacteria to corn plants to resist diseases. The problem is we do not understand fully what inserted gene will do beside that. We do not have that full understanding of how a changed genome can work. And this human modification is WAY TOO FAST if you compare it to natural selection and mutation. We are playing god and it's our ecosystem on the line. These plants become super plants and kills off they "less evovled" cousin.
Whoa.... cyborg plants and mad scientists? Sorry... no polite ways to address that rant.

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oh, DNA and genes have always existed in plants. It doesn't matter to them if Monsanto just add "a little extra". This enrages me to no ends. To the FDA, putting antibiotic producing gene belonging to bacterias into corn plants is just fine and require no testing. Just splendid. How marvelous.
So... you didn't know that like animals.. plants also produce natural antibiotics? Your lack of plant knowledge may scare the begeebees out of you... but your lack of knowledge... doesn't worry ME. I actually had my children vaccinated!
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Old 05-29-14, 04:15 PM   #49
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I suspect the former. If not, he should be. ... He is clearly arguing from an ideology rather than facts
No... I am presenting facts... to the fearful. You seem terribly afraid of what you don't understand. You've gathered in a nice little "circle of the scared" now. Trying desperately to protect yourselves from the facts.... to hold close the fears you know so well.

You meet someone who understands the food supply.... and it scares you.
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Old 05-29-14, 04:21 PM   #50
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Are you being paid by Monsanto, or do you just hate organic food?
I love AND GROW organic food. Never worked for Monsanto.

How about you... when the family comes over for dinner... how many are in food production. How many people in your church work in the farm industry? How REMOVED are you from the industry you seem so afraid of?
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