Any cardiologists out there?
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Ah, bless. In my experience (I worked in healthcare most of my life) very few doctors, let alone chiropractors, have much interest or expertise in training for endurance sports. If you want to address the arguments, feel free to address them.
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The trouble is: the performance (only) guys think ALL training is simply to improve performance and simply can't see any other training regimen. In actuality, there are a number of different training goals --- such as a longer, healthier life.
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a 70 year old, over weight grandpa may take up a cycling training regimen, but I doubt he will be overly concerned (at least initially) with his LTHR. And, there is a whole wide range of statuses and goals between the 20 something jock whose life evolves around cycling and that 70 year old grandpa.
And, as I said initially, for a reasonably healthy person, using the MaxHR formula is OK -- until he is able to determine his actual max hr. But, as you point out, he must understand the limitations of using an average.
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Agreed (except where there are functional problems involved such as valve problems or heart failure). But then I never said that it was a limiting factor in performance.
The trouble is: the performance (only) guys think ALL training is simply to improve performance and simply can't see any other training regimen. In actuality, there are a number of different training goals --- such as a longer, healthier life.
The trouble is: the performance (only) guys think ALL training is simply to improve performance and simply can't see any other training regimen. In actuality, there are a number of different training goals --- such as a longer, healthier life.
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I wonder if Scott Bolton imagined that his question would result in a thread like this.
Has anyone else noticed that Scott has not been back into this thread?
Has anyone else noticed that Scott has not been back into this thread?
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There are many reasons and goal for training. What the best training regimen is depends on a number of factors -- including your current physical state as well as your goals...
a 70 year old, over weight grandpa may take up a cycling training regimen, but I doubt he will be overly concerned (at least initially) with his LTHR. And, there is a whole wide range of statuses and goals between the 20 something jock whose life evolves around cycling and that 70 year old grandpa.
And, as I said initially, for a reasonably healthy person, using the MaxHR formula is OK -- until he is able to determine his actual max hr. But, as you point out, he must understand the limitations of using an average.
a 70 year old, over weight grandpa may take up a cycling training regimen, but I doubt he will be overly concerned (at least initially) with his LTHR. And, there is a whole wide range of statuses and goals between the 20 something jock whose life evolves around cycling and that 70 year old grandpa.
And, as I said initially, for a reasonably healthy person, using the MaxHR formula is OK -- until he is able to determine his actual max hr. But, as you point out, he must understand the limitations of using an average.
If you are tracking your HR, the only reason to do that is to exercise in certain HR zones - whatever your goals may be. And to set those zones, LTHR is accurate wheres max HR is useless.
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If you're still talking about max HR, you are entirely missing the point of tracking HR while exercising.
If you are tracking your HR, the only reason to do that is to exercise in certain HR zones - whatever your goals may be. And to set those zones, LTHR is accurate wheres max HR is useless.
If you are tracking your HR, the only reason to do that is to exercise in certain HR zones - whatever your goals may be. And to set those zones, LTHR is accurate wheres max HR is useless.
Determining your HRmax is _hard_. Hard as in "very unpleasant" as well as "difficult to do correctly". I posted a plot here some time ago plotting a number of attempts to hit my HRmax by doing intervals, most of them terminating 10+ bpm below real, known HRmax.
Determining your LTHR is also hard, but in a different way. A cyclist can do it with a 2x20 test. But there are more runners than cyclists, and most beginning runners can't run 5 minutes continuous, let alone 2x20. A beginning cyclist has to do 2x20 a couple of times before he/she learns to maintain roughly constant effort for 20 minutes.
Enter 220-age based heart rate zones. They can be used by anyone on day 1 of their fitness program, they require no physician-supervised painful testing, and, if they are not all that accurate - that's the price you have to pay.
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Thank you! Thank You! Thank You!!
This thread has taken a tired old subject that has used countless terabytes of disk space and given it a level of silliness and humor that gave me a much needed laugh on this rainy day.
Onward!
This thread has taken a tired old subject that has used countless terabytes of disk space and given it a level of silliness and humor that gave me a much needed laugh on this rainy day.
Onward!
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Sure. But I don't understand your earlier statement that training using maxHR is somehow preferable to using LTHR. Or better, yet ignoring your HR altogether if you're just looking for a healthier life. There's no need to monitor HR to gain significant health benefits from exercise.
But, yes, even if all you want is a 'healthier life", HR is meaningful. There is a difference if you are working at 50%, 60%, 70%, 80% or 90% of your max... It's why medical people advise their clients to get in the zone where they can "talk but not sing". It's a crude way of targeting a heart rate zone even if you do not have a heart rate monitor. Its no more accurate than the max heart rate calculation that has been so badly trashed in this thread. But, for most beginners it is close enough to get them an effective workout without killing them.
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You are correct, but I think you are missing the reason why max HR enters the picture in the first place.
Determining your HRmax is _hard_. Hard as in "very unpleasant" as well as "difficult to do correctly". I posted a plot here some time ago plotting a number of attempts to hit my HRmax by doing intervals, most of them terminating 10+ bpm below real, known HRmax.
Determining your LTHR is also hard, but in a different way. A cyclist can do it with a 2x20 test. But there are more runners than cyclists, and most beginning runners can't run 5 minutes continuous, let alone 2x20. A beginning cyclist has to do 2x20 a couple of times before he/she learns to maintain roughly constant effort for 20 minutes.
Enter 220-age based heart rate zones. They can be used by anyone on day 1 of their fitness program, they require no physician-supervised painful testing, and, if they are not all that accurate - that's the price you have to pay.
Determining your HRmax is _hard_. Hard as in "very unpleasant" as well as "difficult to do correctly". I posted a plot here some time ago plotting a number of attempts to hit my HRmax by doing intervals, most of them terminating 10+ bpm below real, known HRmax.
Determining your LTHR is also hard, but in a different way. A cyclist can do it with a 2x20 test. But there are more runners than cyclists, and most beginning runners can't run 5 minutes continuous, let alone 2x20. A beginning cyclist has to do 2x20 a couple of times before he/she learns to maintain roughly constant effort for 20 minutes.
Enter 220-age based heart rate zones. They can be used by anyone on day 1 of their fitness program, they require no physician-supervised painful testing, and, if they are not all that accurate - that's the price you have to pay.
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I also don't know why you think there's something wrong with having a high max HR.
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Take either and tell me whether your Time Trial times decrease or increase.
The variation in max heart rates are not just due to age or genetics. Medicines affect max HR.
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I don't believe anyone stated otherwise so far in this thread so that's nice I guess.
Last edited by CharlyAlfaRomeo; 09-05-14 at 05:49 PM.
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Actually I've just enjoyed reading all the posts; I'm heading out this weekend to determine my LTHR - warm up / 10 minutes full tilt / determine the average in the next 20 minutes at full tilt / collapse in a gibbering heap / eat cookies.
All (well most) of the info and advice is much appreciated.
S
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In short, WHEN your body converts over to anaerobic metabolism has little to do with the pumping capacity of your heart and, if your heart is healthy, your body reaches that state long before you reach the maximum performance of your heart. So, if you are trying to improve the fitness of your cardiovascular and pulmonary systems, max heart rate is the better measurement to use.
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As for max heart rate formulas, they are no more than simple mathematical models of a collection of data. Where it goes wrong is in the interpretation and simplistic application of them.
Last edited by Looigi; 09-06-14 at 08:48 AM.
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That's why I don't believe the maxHR you observe while riding a bike is the highest rate your heart is capable of pumping. This is just my opinion and I haven't seen any research one way or the other.
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If I take 220-age=maxHR and solve for age, the formula predicts that I am 23. That's something.
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My max rate is right at when I say to myself. " I'm going to die......I can't breathe anymore..." Then I keep going until my legs fail. If I have a heart attack and die, at least I was healthy.
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The CDC defines moderate exercise as 50%-70% of the max for that person. Vigorous exercise is 70%-85% of the max.
Or, in a study published a few days ago the American Heart Assoc stated that more than an hour a day of moderate exercise or half an hour of vigorous exercise may lower your chances of heart failure by 46%.
But I have never seen anybody provide a maximum amount of exercise or even an optimum amount. But I do remember seeing a study a while back that suggested that benefit from exercise may be a 'J shaped' curve where the benefits drop off with either to little or too much exercise. But, as I remember the 'too much' was in the realm of consistent marathon runners.
Then we get to HIIT training that mixes moderate and vigorous (or higher) exercise: it seems that that may have the optimum benefit of all.
p.s. -- I see that Chasm54 gave a far more complete answer in the thread on heart rate. I would go with what he says.
Last edited by GeorgeBMac; 09-06-14 at 07:08 PM.
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Personally my max is the same between the two when I'm well trained, I can see 190 at the top of a climb on my bike or sprinting at the end of a 10 k run, but I've never been fit enough to hit 190 in both sports simultaneously.
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