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  1. #1
    Meow! my58vw's Avatar
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    Alright a question that is spoened off of my Thursday night crit thread.

    I just got back from my local Thursday night "Training" crit, just as fast as a normal crit, just no getting pulled off, 60 minutes of suffering, blah blah.

    Right now I can not quite hang with the group, typical story, but I am getting faster.

    At the crit there is two thoughts on how I get into "race" shape...
    1. Anaerobic workout, stay with the pack as long as possible, when dropped recover then try again, recover again, etc. Working anaerobic in chasing, sprinting, spin ups etc.

    2. LT workout, when dropped ride into the anaerobic zone as long as possible, as fast as you can into the wind until you get laped then try and get on, resting after about 3 - 4 laps for a lap then going back again. Works core endurance that is important to keeping up with the normal pack speed and have more left for sprinting etc. Try to stay from getting laped as long as possible.

    I feel that number 2 is better right now as it builds power and works LT and anaerobic zones. Number 1 works chasing and getting on wheels but does little for raw endurance. I think that I need to work more on muscular endurance.

    Which is better... ?
    Last edited by my58vw; 04-15-05 at 12:17 AM. Reason: Spelling errors!
    Just your average club rider... :)

  2. #2
    Member climbo's Avatar
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    I cannot compute, you are using anaerobic and araerobic, what does it all mean? I can't tell. It's anaerobic and/or aerobic.

    Bottom line is you need to train all your systems in some form to get better - and it depends what you're training for.
    Last edited by climbo; 04-15-05 at 12:18 AM.

  3. #3
    Meow! my58vw's Avatar
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    Spelling edited. Araerobic means Anaerobic...

    The question is which is MORE important in a crit, LT or anaerobic work basically.
    Just your average club rider... :)

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    Member climbo's Avatar
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    if by LT you mean aerobic capacity then yes, LT work, you'll never get close enough to the pack to use your "anaerobic skills" if you have poor aerobic capacity. So you need both depending on your goals within a race basically.

  5. #5
    On Your Right ZackJones's Avatar
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    I think you're over analyzing things. Just get out there and ride your ass off for as long as you can.
    "You never fail, you simply produce results. Learn from these" - Anonymous

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    Meow! my58vw's Avatar
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    by LT I mean lactic acid threshold. In a crit that is working as a long interval around LT or more likely right above it, basically a speed in which you can sustain even if suffering for quite some time. (This is in contrast to normal LT which is done as few beats below LT which works muscular endurance and lactic acid accumilation).

    My pholosphy (sorry wrong spelling) is exactly what you said, once dropped it is better to just run as long as possible around LT, like a big interval, which will in turn raise your LT and make you faster. Eventually making you fast enough to stay with the pack and use the more anaerobic efforts, like sprinting.

    Everyone else says that if I get dropped to stop and wait then work on trying to get back on (anaerobic work) and once on to try and sit in as long as possible, then stop, etc. At this point I do not think I could get back on to the group once dropped due to a lack of speed. Once I "sit in" I do less work than busting my butt in the wind for 30 minutes or more. It makes since to me that I will get more benefit by pushing into the wind and completly tiring out then resting. As I get quicker it seems like I can hold off the peloton longer and longer because I can go faster. Eventually in a few months I will be able to sit in comfortably with the group.

    Another racer told me that even when you can sit in the pack that it is a waste to do so because you are not working and to try and get off the front, eventually into a massive breakaway. This is exactly what I am doing but opposite...

    Am I right or wrong with this then? Everyone I ride with at these crits says that I am doing the wrong thing by not waiting and just running as hard as I can until I am lapped.

    I think you're over analyzing things. Just get out there and ride your ass off for as long as you can
    You are probably right, but it is hard to not do so when you have 8 guys all saying that you are "training" wrong.
    Just your average club rider... :)

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    I had a good response typed out, but I lost it. dang

    anyway, you should be doing both. Try to get in an LT interval session and an anerobic workout. one of the important things about anerobic workouts is to have incomplete recovery. If your in a race and have to push hard for a minute, your not going to have 10 minutes to chill and let your HR go back below 100. you need to improve your ability to go, then recover. so try doing intervals in the 1-3 minute range and just let your HR go back down to 65-70% of your max and then go again.

    And heres a pretty good article on anerobic intervals and stuff

    http://www.active.com/story.cfm?story_id=11587

  8. #8
    Senior Member skydive69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phatman
    I had a good response typed out, but I lost it. dang

    anyway, you should be doing both. Try to get in an LT interval session and an anerobic workout. one of the important things about anerobic workouts is to have incomplete recovery. If your in a race and have to push hard for a minute, your not going to have 10 minutes to chill and let your HR go back below 100. you need to improve your ability to go, then recover. so try doing intervals in the 1-3 minute range and just let your HR go back down to 65-70% of your max and then go again.

    And heres a pretty good article on anerobic intervals and stuff

    http://www.active.com/story.cfm?story_id=11587
    Great article!
    www.brokennecktobrokenrecords.com

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    On Your Right ZackJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by my58vw
    You are probably right, but it is hard to not do so when you have 8 guys all saying that you are "training" wrong.
    That's why you take everything you read here on BF with a grain of salt. Your coach is the one you'll need to listen to.
    "You never fail, you simply produce results. Learn from these" - Anonymous

  10. #10
    Dart Board velocity's Avatar
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    Anaerobic = without air
    Aerobic = with air
    This discussion is saying two things.
    When we feel the burn in our legs and we are still breathing hard but getting it then we are not anaerobic. At this point we need to focus on the muscular overload that will give us the training to perform at certain intensities for longer or just for more power at the same amount of time. When we talk about an all out push like a sprint and it feels like you have just come up from water after being down too long and you are winded and you must recover then we are talking anaerobic (this will not be held for long may be 1 minute to 2 minutes tops before you blow up)
    Anaerobic work comes from fuel in your muscles called glycogen- This fuel needs no air to burn. This on board fuel gives you the power you need for those bursts but, the stores can be used up fast and can take a long time to recover from and replenish. Anaerobic intervals can help train your ability to get back to the aerobic fuel system or blood sugar that needs air to burn and is more efficient. Training in anaerobic intervals can push that anaerobic threshold area closer to your max heart rate (MHR) but the real goal here is the recovery and to learn to get back to a aerobic pace as soon as possible where it is more comfortable to breath and this case compete.
    LT threshold is more of an uncertainty and it takes blood tests to tell where the lactic acid starts to build. The point that is good to know is where the body can not keep up with turning it back into fuel fast enough and the accumulations start that hectic burn (some like to call it pain) that will soon or later over come us. Working at that level will push that ability to over come the localized muscular fatigue (again that is the overload principle).
    So what a few here have said and I agree-go out and do the work over come it and get use to it and by all means have fun doing it.
    Velocity

  11. #11
    Name's Ash ...housewares Doctor Morbius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by my58vw
    ... You are probably right, but it is hard to not do so when you have 8 guys all saying that you are "training" wrong.
    But what are the credentials of those 8 guys? If you are talking about the riders in your crit group they may just be natural born cyclists or regurgitating what they've read on some forum. Here you may get a few smatterings of good information mixed in with a plethora of misinformation and regurgitation. Have a little faith in that new coach you've hired. That's his job now. If he's decent your times and skills will improve consistently over time. If they don't or if there is a personality conflict, fire him and get another. That being said I still think you are attempting to do too much from reading your recent "Tempo Training ... Ride Lengths" thread. It sounds like you have a tendency to be compulsive about training and overtrain yourself as gleaned from an ealier thead.


    Free information is worth exactly what you pay for it most of the time (unless it's from me! ). That's why I haven't started a "how do I improve my 50 mile time?" thread. You're still relatively new to cycling and you're young so there's plenty of time to get it right.


    Another source I'd shy away from is www.bicycling.com or any of the bicycling print mags. They publish some downright hooey! I think they must be in it just to sell advertising space.
    Last edited by Doctor Morbius; 04-15-05 at 10:31 AM.
    I did not achieve this position in life by having some snot-nosed punk leave my cheese out in the wind. - Ed Rooney


    It's not that I'm lazy. I'm just highly motivated to RELAX!!

  12. #12
    Meow! my58vw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Morbius
    But what are the credentials of those 8 guys? If you are talking about the riders in your crit group they may just be natural born cyclists or regurgitating what they've read on some forum. Here you may get a few smatterings of good information mixed in with a plethora of misinformation and regurgitation. Have a little faith in that new coach you've hired. That's his job now. If he's decent your times and skills will improve consistently over time. If they don't or if there is a personality conflict, fire him and get another. That being said I still think you are attempting to do too much from reading your recent "Tempo Training ... Ride Lengths" thread. It sounds like you have a tendency to be compulsive about training and overtrain yourself as gleaned from an ealier thead.


    Free information is worth exactly what you pay for it most of the time (unless it's from me! ). That's why I haven't started a "how do I improve my 50 mile time?" thread. You're still relatively new to cycling and you're young so there's plenty of time to get it right.


    Another source I'd shy away from is www.bicycling.com or any of the bicycling print mags. They publish some downright hooey! I think they must be in it just to sell advertising space.
    You are definitly right, expecially after what my body is saying this morning... time for a day off...

    I do not know if being compulsive about training is the right term but I know where you are going. I go run these crits and get dropped and something tells me that if I train maybe a little more each week I will be there quicker. Of course I realize now that it is ust going to take time until I get to this level.

    Thanks for all the comments.
    Just your average club rider... :)

  13. #13
    Dart Board velocity's Avatar
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    One thing I want to know and I didn't see is what gives out first? The legs or the lungs when you do the crits?
    Velocity

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    Meow! my58vw's Avatar
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    A few weeks ago it was lungs, now after a few weeks with longer rides it is legs again.
    Just your average club rider... :)

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    Stop being a wuss.

    Hanging with a pack is all about confidence in your ability and your ability to suffer. If you want to ride with the big boys then you will have to hurt. Think it's easy for them? No, the difference is in attitude. If you are training half as hard as you say and as fast as you say then it should be no problem.

  16. #16
    Meow! my58vw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewitz
    Stop being a wuss.

    Hanging with a pack is all about confidence in your ability and your ability to suffer. If you want to ride with the big boys then you will have to hurt. Think it's easy for them? No, the difference is in attitude. If you are training half as hard as you say and as fast as you say then it should be no problem.
    Wuss... you better know what h#$l you are saying before you start flinging insults around

    Suffering is pushing the extra mile in a sprint, it is hanging on a fast moving breakaway, it is pushing beyond your limits on a long hill. Staying with the pack is NOT about suffering, it is about having the power and aerobic fitness to hang in. Most racers retriet to the pack to recover, not to suffer. Confidence has nothing to do with being able to hang with the pack, confidence is starting the race in the first place. Everyone suffers in a race that is right but suffering is different. Your muscles can only go so far, after contracting so many times they fatigue, the more strength and power you have the longer it takes for the muscles to fatigue.

    If your peak power sustanable for 3 minutes is 300 watts but it takes 300 watts of power to hang into the pack the whole race you are getting dropped. No amount of suffering will change that, your muscles fatigue and you drop. It has NOTHING to do with confidence, pack ability or other. If the power required to hang in the pack is 200 watts and you can output 200 watts at LT then you will suffer but not the same if you are going 100 percent.

    Thursday night I started with the pack, I went 100 percent to try and stay with the pack, I was in pain, I did everything I could to stay on the leaders wheel. On the hill I was already going about 95 percent peak power and the pack who was not at peak power just accelerate more since they were not at peak power. I did everything I could to get back on but went 100 percent for about 20 seconds. The pain was intense but there was a point where I could not contract any faster and I dropped. For the next 45 minutes I suffered above LT threshold. By the time I got to the end I had nothing left. If I was NOT suffering I would have never gotten to that point.

    There were times fighting the wind where I wanted to quit, but I did not. The pain started in my calves then moved to my quads then my hamstrings. My legs were on fire but I would not stop, some said you could see the look of pain on my face. The more I race the stronger I get, the more power I can sustain, the higher my LT becomes.

    If I did not train as hard as I do I would not even be close to where I am now.

    You do not get so sore that you can not walk up stairs at work from not suffering.
    Last edited by my58vw; 04-15-05 at 05:00 PM.
    Just your average club rider... :)

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    'Suffering is pushing the extra mile in a sprint'

    Since when do sprints last that long? I guess you need to learn tactics also.

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    Meow! my58vw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewitz
    'Suffering is pushing the extra mile in a sprint'

    Since when do sprints last that long? I guess you need to learn tactics also.
    Sprints can be any number of lengths, many of the times the field determines the length of the sprint, not you.


    It does not matter how long the sprint, sprint cause the most suffereing despite the length because you are psuh as hard as you can for the shortest amount of time.

    I would think you would know that.
    Last edited by my58vw; 04-15-05 at 07:23 PM.
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    field sprint - the dash for the finish line by the main group of riders.

    Sprint
    A sudden burst of speed for the finish of a race involving more than one rider.

    Sprint - Anerobic attack. Can be maintained for short distances.


    Sprint: 1. Α high-speed race, usually over a short distance. 2. Τhe final high-speed dash for the finish line in race of any distance.

  20. #20
    Focus on the future alison_in_oh's Avatar
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    Back to your original question, clearly I don't race yet, but I plan to treat next Tuesday's crit as *race* training. To me that means that after I am inevitably dropped, I need to take advantage of the energy and motivation of a race situation to keep pushing beyond what I can do in a normal training ride. I plan to ride at a high-aerobic recovery pace until I'm lapped, catch the pack and try to hang with them again as if starting from scratch. Riding in the race situation is supposed to be about going above and beyond. Time trialing to make the best of a bad situation seems like another reasonable response, but I don't feel it takes the best advantage of the event you (presumably) paid good money to enter.

    Another way to say what ewitz is getting at as far as suffering, is that if your life depended on it you'd find a last reserve and you'd tap it. There's a mental block that must be overcome to psychologically overpower the screaming in your legs and make them spin faster or push a bigger gear. For all you know, everybody out there might be as close to generating their peak power as you, but they are willing to drown out the pain and make the effort. They say that one of the reasons Lance dominates the competition is that he is genetically equipped with a higher pain threshold (along with his genetically higher VO2 max of course!)

    It's not a race situation but at Thursday night's training ride, I got dropped like a rock on the first climb. I was expecting it, but my legs were particularly sore and I resigned myself to continuing to ride hard and heading home. "Gave it my best shot" I told myself, "and I'm still going as hard as I can". But then I saw my DH coming back for me. He turned and offered me his wheel at a pace just above what I was doing at the time. I gritted my teeth, I reached down deep, and I made my legs move. It hurt but damned if I was going to let him down. We rejoined the main group and that extra motivation was enough to keep me with them for several steep rolling hills beyond.

    With the right motivation a lot can be overcome.

    My DH gives me **** about falling behind when riding with him unless my HR is above 90% of max. Anything less and he tells me I'm not trying hard enough. Tough love, doncha know.

    (Y'all's sprint conversation reminds me of why we dislike some of our spinning instructors. "Sprint for 90 seconds" they'll call out..."What are we doing, going at the 2km marker?" DH grumbles. The instructor just means go hard and push the lactate threshold. But by the definition we use, sprint is a maximal pure-anaerobic effort sustainable for about 20 seconds. It's simply not maintained for miles -- nor minutes -- at a time.)

  21. #21
    Dart Board velocity's Avatar
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    What I was enjoying about this thread was (thanks Alison) that both would get to that assumption on their own -whilist they had their argument. BUT one of the things I was enjoying the most and I believe where their true argument lies is..... "who wears the jersey better that they are pictured in?" But seriously overload is the only way to get to the area you want.
    Balance in getting there is just as important.
    Velocity

  22. #22
    Meow! my58vw's Avatar
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    I totally agree with you about digging deep and going all out. The intensity of a race causes you to push to the point that you could never do training alone. In the last few races and during training I play the game to not get lapped, basically hold off the 26+ MPH pack for as long as possible. This means digging as far as I can down to keep my pace as high as possible fighting the wind, staying away, etc.

    In the practice crit I was able to stay away for over 40 minutes. My HR was pegged at 176, that is 91 pecent of max, the pain was excruiating, my calves, quads and hamstrings burned. After about 40 minutes my muscles could not push anymore but I tried. When I finally got lapped I gave it 100 percent to try and get on, my HR soared to over 185 BPM but I came within 10 feet of getting back on.

    In a race once you are laped it is over, they pull you. Keeping from getting lapped is of prime importance if you want to stay in. At Ontario I basically colasped after the race from pushing my max limit for so long. Your body has a max power that you can not go past. That is increased when you reach that level then rest and allow your muscles to rebuild. My motivation is the longer I can stay away, no matter how much I am suffering, the longer I can keep from getting laped in a race and eventually hang in a race.

    Talking to guys who I race with most of them were not suffering in the pack, they were tired but not suffering to bad. They are able to sprint to 38 MPH because they have reserves left. After 4 laps at 91% of max I stood up and was only able to get about 5 MPH more (to 28 MPH) facing the wind before I nearly fell off the bike from exaustion.

    Honestly After going that hard for that long it really does not matter if I was with the pack or not, I am totally beat. It seems like when you get to the point where you can hang then you are not going hard enough. I have experienced genuine suffering and I am getting faster because of it...
    Just your average club rider... :)

  23. #23
    Name's Ash ...housewares Doctor Morbius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by my58vw
    I totally agree with you about digging deep and going all out. The intensity of a race causes you to push to the point that you could never do training alone. In the last few races and during training I play the game to not get lapped, basically hold off the 26+ MPH pack for as long as possible. This means digging as far as I can down to keep my pace as high as possible fighting the wind, staying away, etc.

    In the practice crit I was able to stay away for over 40 minutes. My HR was pegged at 176, that is 91 pecent of max, the pain was excruiating, my calves, quads and hamstrings burned. After about 40 minutes my muscles could not push anymore but I tried. When I finally got lapped I gave it 100 percent to try and get on, my HR soared to over 185 BPM but I came within 10 feet of getting back on.

    In a race once you are laped it is over, they pull you. Keeping from getting lapped is of prime importance if you want to stay in. At Ontario I basically colasped after the race from pushing my max limit for so long. Your body has a max power that you can not go past. That is increased when you reach that level then rest and allow your muscles to rebuild. My motivation is the longer I can stay away, no matter how much I am suffering, the longer I can keep from getting laped in a race and eventually hang in a race.

    Talking to guys who I race with most of them were not suffering in the pack, they were tired but not suffering to bad. They are able to sprint to 38 MPH because they have reserves left. After 4 laps at 91% of max I stood up and was only able to get about 5 MPH more (to 28 MPH) facing the wind before I nearly fell off the bike from exaustion.

    Honestly After going that hard for that long it really does not matter if I was with the pack or not, I am totally beat. It seems like when you get to the point where you can hang then you are not going hard enough. I have experienced genuine suffering and I am getting faster because of it...
    When does your new coach come back from vacation or wherever? Hopefully, he'll be able to sort through the thick and the thin of what you are experiencing. See what I mean though about taking advice from forum members (ewitz)? Just saying to toughen up and don't be a wuss offers little constructive value on training style. Take the advice here with large grains of salt, self included.

    There is a way to overcome your current plight. You're coach should hear every detail of what you've described about that race, by the way. I don't think pushing it harder at this point in the answer though. Just from what I've read on your other threads and this one, it sounds like you push yourself in training right up until race day instead of taking it easy a few days before. Those practice crits on Thursday can probably be skipped the week before a big race and the volume should probably be cut considerably. Are you doing that? I'd bet good money your not and that you're trying to keep up your volume and intensity prior to and after a big race, hence you're running out of reserves as you've used them up the week before on your Thursday practice crite and heavy intervals the week before. I know you can hit more than 28 MPH, especially in a pack that is going 38 so there's something wrong here.

    I don't know what kind of foods you eat but nutrution can also be a factor. I know that when I was young and busy I didn't take time to prepare proper meals and ended up going for the fast foods due to the convenience. As I recall you were kind of heavy at one time prior to getting into cycling. If youre trying to still lose weight during an intense season that's pretty much a no no. The extra calories are needed to fuel all of that intense training and racing.

    Anyway, you'll get 'er straightened out. The racing season just got started and you've got several months left to tune your fitness before winter sets in and sucks it all away again.

    And YES you can sprint for a mile, even though some forum members apparently don't think so. I ran the 440 and mile relay events when I was in track in high school. THAT'S a sprint that lasts nearly a minute.
    I did not achieve this position in life by having some snot-nosed punk leave my cheese out in the wind. - Ed Rooney


    It's not that I'm lazy. I'm just highly motivated to RELAX!!

  24. #24
    Focus on the future alison_in_oh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Morbius
    And YES you can sprint for a mile, even though some forum members apparently don't think so. I ran the 440 and mile relay events when I was in track in high school. THAT'S a sprint that lasts nearly a minute.
    I'm far from the world's expert on sports physiology, but from what I do understand, {you are likely in a combined aerobic and anaerobic state if you can keep it up that long. You're going as hard as you can for a minute, you're not going as hard as you *can*. Yannow?** EDIT: OK, looked it up. You can remain primarily anaerobic for close to a minute, but after 20 seconds the energy pathway is slightly different and you're using muscle glycogen as well as pure ATP.

    (Reminds me of that short in the Animatrix about the sprinter who runs so fast he kicks himself into the real world briefly...)
    Last edited by alison_in_oh; 04-16-05 at 03:20 PM.

  25. #25
    Focus on the future alison_in_oh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by my58vw
    In a race once you are laped it is over, they pull you. Keeping from getting lapped is of prime importance if you want to stay in.
    That's an excellent reason to pull the time trial angle. (Most of the races I've attended have been track races -- in a points race you can still get points after you're lapped -- and these local crits where some yahoos doing about 13 mph will finish out the race after being lapped four and five times!)

    Honestly After going that hard for that long it really does not matter if I was with the pack or not, I am totally beat. It seems like when you get to the point where you can hang then you are not going hard enough. I have experienced genuine suffering and I am getting faster because of it...
    You poor dear. Let me assure you it DOES get better. My sweetie used to vomit all over the course at every race, he was going so hard. I remember celebrating Cat 4/5 pack finishes with him five or six years ago. Now he is a force to reckon with in a 1/2/3 field.

    Stay strong and train smart. I'm super nervous about entering this silly little local crit on Tuesday, but your determination is an inspiration!

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