intransit1217

Is there any value in planning a day with backup sag support, having a good breakfast, and then going as long and hard as you can until you hit that point, then stretching ( a must, i think), then getting a ride home?

Carbonfiberboy 

It's controversial. There is no good evidence that it does anything but bum you out and put a hitch in your training while you recover. OTOH, some say it increases glycogen storage potential. I don't recall seeing evidence of that. That said, I have frequently just gone as hard as I could, while consuming calories, until my glycogen was mostly gone and my pace and HR dropped a lot. Then the struggle is to finish the ride anyway. No sag vehicle. I don't believe in that easy out. Physically and mentally it's good to know that you really have no limits and to explore that reality. Some people call this a "death march", but I have too much respect for those who endured those. What we do is nothing. Whether that's helpful in any measurable way is unknown, at least AFAIK.

The other interesting thing to do along those lines is to go out for an easy ride with just water, but go out for many hours. 6 is probably a good limit. That has an effect for sure. Again, sag is unnecessary and counterproductive.

RR3

Look up Jeff Volek's book.

The point is not to increase glycogen storage. Separate pathway. The point is to increase the size and number of mitochrondia and enzymes associated with fat burning. Enhanced beta oxidation rather than glycolosis

https://m.ajpregu.physiology.org/cont...6/R450.full#F2

Carbonfiberboy 

Nice study. Actually, the point would be to demonstrate increased athletic performance as a result of whatever intervention, which the authors in this study carefully did not do. That's always the hitch.

There has been an interest in "doubling", i.e. doing two workouts in one day, with the second done in a glycogen depleted state. However this never really caught on due to the lack of ability of trainers to demonstrate any utility in so doing. The problem is always, yeah, so that increases whatever, but does that translate into increased performance? Whatever the intervention is, be it low glycogen or low oxygen or low carb, it usually cannot be performed at optimum intensity to produce an optimal training response.

So meanwhile we watch to see who wins what races with what strategies. So far there doesn't seem to be a clear winner other than who drugs better or works harder or is more talented.

As I mentioned somewhere else, if they wrote a book, just close the tab. I suppose Friel and Coggan are excepted.

gregf83 

I've had good results going hard at the end of a 4 hour ride when I'm tired. Not bonking but legs are getting weary and seems to be beneficial to work hard at this point. This works best in a group ride with a little competition.

Deliberately bonking sounds like a bad idea. No evidence that it's effective and it's certainly unpleasant. Since I do this for enjoyment I won't be bonking anytime soon.

Carbon Unit

I guess I need new glasses. I thought the title was the value in boinking which is a very different subject.

klondike300

That was my thought!

But yes, I do think there is value in bonking. Especially if you never have.

A rider needs to know their own signs of bonking and what they need to do to recover. I tell all the new riders I meet with to learn their signs and also the signs of their regular riding partners.
Much safer out on the road this way.

Carbonfiberboy 

++ good. I don't know why, but that makes all the difference.