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Cyclist Kicks Another Cyclist Off Bike

Old 08-12-14, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by likebike23
Who's blaming the guy? I'm saying that there is evidence of possible provocation on the part of the victim.
That would be blaming the guy.
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Old 08-12-14, 06:53 PM
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The way I see it, that BMX rider simply shouldn't be in the road.

Given the nature of a BMX bike, he would get the jump after a stop at every light but would spin out early because of the low gearing. These means:

1:He gets ahead of everyone else at the beginning
2:Gets passed by everyone else almost immediately after/or holds up an entire line of faster cyclists due to dense traffic

Being a BMX bandit on a commuter lane just doesn't work well. If he can't handle being mechanically limited by his bike, he needs to deal with getting passed and not being a violent sociopath. Even if he did pass successfully he had to pump pretty hard. I can't imagine him pumping the whole ride just to stay ahead of the camera cyclist, who would have inevitably caught up and passed him again anyways.
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Old 08-12-14, 07:07 PM
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I a little surprised that there are folks who think that kicking a bicyclist is sometimes OK.
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Old 08-12-14, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by acidfast7

Both people were being idiots and got what they deserved.
Just checking in; could you please provide a list of cycling etiquette lapses that merit getting kicked off one's bike in traffic?

While we're at it, what kind of facial expressions would merit shooting someone in response?
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Old 08-12-14, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by achoo
So you're condoning felony assault and battery because it's "street rules"?

Gotcha.
If you provoke someone, you get in trouble. That's how people are. A guy from my high school was in a situation to be beaten by 10 guys. Guys from our class asked and he said he had provoked one of them. We decided to step in and "save" him, but told him the next time HE provokes someone, we'll just let it go - even if 100 guys want to beat him. Is 10 to one fair? No. Legal? No. Is it justified? No. But did he ask for trouble by provoking? Yes - so let him reap what he saw.

The guy with the camera was clueless: first speeding up, then braking and swerving to the left. Did it look like intentional provocation to the BMX guy? It might have. We just see a short part of the video from the handlebars point of view. So it's hard to say who's really right or wrong. Assault can sometimes be morally justified IMO. Some people deserve it. Courts in my country are very slow and the poor can't really have justice - you need good, expensive lawyers, money for taxes etc.
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Old 08-13-14, 01:19 AM
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Originally Posted by alathIN
Just checking in; could you please provide a list of cycling etiquette lapses that merit getting kicked off one's bike in traffic?

While we're at it, what kind of facial expressions would merit shooting someone in response?
Anything that endangers another rider.

Ninja, salmon, blocking the bike lane stopped.

I'm not saying I'd kick someone, but I won't get sad seeing it done.

Same if someone runs a red and gets hit by a car. One knows what they're doing when the elect to run the red.
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Old 08-13-14, 01:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Slaninar
The guy with the camera was clueless: first speeding up, then braking and swerving to the left. Did it look like intentional provocation to the BMX guy? It might have. We just see a short part of the video from the handlebars point of view. So it's hard to say who's really right or wrong.
What swerving? At what point in that video was swerving seen?

I saw the following, basically:

  • The BMX guy stopped, looking behind him in the hopes of merging into the bike traffic.
  • The roadies passing the stopped BMX guy ... and they move on.
  • The camera guy tucking in ~15ft behind the guy in the white shirt, who's somewhat to his left of center.
  • The BMX guy tries a 1/4 pass attempt, but that's about all it can be called, running out of room as he approaches the rear of the bus. Done at a time when the camera guy is roughly ~4ft out from the edge of the buses/cars parked along the left.
  • The only "tucking in" that I can see is when the camera guy approaches the guy in the white shirt, at which point he realizes he's heading a bit far out into traffic and then tucks in behind the guy.
  • Several seconds later, the BMX guy comes up on the right-hand side and takes out the camera guy.



Are you saying that tucking in behind the guy in the white shirt was done spitefully, that something in the vid shows it was done for reasons other than heading a bit too far out into traffic?

Or, are you calling the BMX guy's running out of space at the back end of that bus an example of the camera guy tucking-in?

Just wondering if we're seeing the same things in that vid.

Granted, the vid is from the road guy's perspective, and who knows whether it's the full and unadulterated view. Seems to be unedited.
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Old 08-13-14, 02:27 AM
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I also find it quite suspicious that we don't have a longer vid.
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Old 08-13-14, 02:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Clyde1820
What swerving? At what point in that video was swerving seen?
Are you saying that tucking in behind the guy in the white shirt was done spitefully, that something in the vid shows it was done for reasons other than heading a bit too far out into traffic?

Or, are you calling the BMX guy's running out of space at the back end of that bus an example of the camera guy tucking-in?

Just wondering if we're seeing the same things in that vid.

Granted, the vid is from the road guy's perspective, and who knows whether it's the full and unadulterated view. Seems to be unedited.
Yes, different perspectives. Here's how I saw it:

0:09 - roadie starts speeding up, practically blocking the BMX on his left, when the BMX was trying to merge in, before they reached the bus. YES, the roadie says he didn't even see the BMX, so it wasn't deliberate, but he BMX probably thought it was deliberate. Such things often happen in traffic - road rage. People not communicating.

0:12 - the BMX had to slow down and settle behind the roadie.

0:15 - roadie, probably unaware of the BMX behind him, swerves to the left. He first started taking over the bike in front of him, then hit brakes and swerved left. How far away from the BMX's front wheel (while he was tucked behind, probably to the left, near the bus)? BMX could have taken all this as deliberate. Perhaps he even had his front wheel touched a bit (not enough to knock him down and roadie to realise it).


This is all speculation. The BMX was out of line IMO, but I also understand this as a typical road rage from misunderstanding. Also, the roadie should have been more aware of his surroundings IMO.

Also, we didn't hear the other guy's story. Who knows what went on before that incident and what went on during the ride - did they make eye contact in the process? In that case, it all gets a totally different context.
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Old 08-13-14, 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Slaninar
Also, the roadie should have been more aware of his surroundings IMO.
I agree will all and especially this. No spatial awareness.
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Old 08-13-14, 03:06 AM
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If something like this happened anywhere i've traveled, the BMX guy would be put in front of a judge or DA (or whatever local name applies) and likely fined.

- Andy
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Old 08-13-14, 03:13 AM
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Originally Posted by TransitBiker
If something like this happened anywhere i've traveled, the BMX guy would be put in front of a judge or DA (or whatever local name applies) and likely fined.

- Andy
If I spat in your face and you punched me, we would both be fined, probably "anywhere you've travelled", but could I really blame you for hitting me? So the law is one thing, and justice is something different.
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Old 08-13-14, 04:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Slaninar
If I spat in your face and you punched me, we would both be fined, probably "anywhere you've travelled", but could I really blame you for hitting me? So the law is one thing, and justice is something different.
Well, i wouldn't do that. The BMX rider had no business doing what he was doing. The other rider was crashed by BMX rider. BMX rider wrong on two counts, one that could land him in court.

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Old 08-13-14, 04:09 AM
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That swerve alongside the bus is probably the most interesting maneuver. The roadie had just previously swerved out into traffic enough for the BMX rider to go around the bus. The maneuver is last second but it creates room. Then he swerves right next to the bus and eliminates that room.

Who wants to bet the BMXer took that narrow space between the roadie and the bus when it opened and then got seriously cut off when the roadie swerved?

That's not saying that the BMXer was in the right. **** him. But it's easy to see how he could feel screwed with and retaliate. If you don't want retaliation from other road users don't give them things to retaliate against, right or wrong.

And I'll say it again. If road bike guy had ridden his pedals more than his brakes none of this would've happened. There's no good reason BMXer should be able to keep up in the first place.
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Old 08-13-14, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Slaninar
If I spat in your face and you punched me, we would both be fined, probably "anywhere you've travelled", but could I really blame you for hitting me? So the law is one thing, and justice is something different.
Are you making any distinction between a lapse or error, and a deliberately aggressive move?
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Old 08-13-14, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by alathIN
Are you making any distinction between a lapse or error, and a deliberately aggressive move?
I do make that distinction. Not sure BMX driver took those manouvers as accident.
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Old 08-13-14, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Slaninar
If I spat in your face and you punched me, we would both be fined, probably "anywhere you've travelled", but could I really blame you for hitting me? So the law is one thing, and justice is something different.
FYI,spitting is considered assault in many places. A better analogy would be if you said something insulting to someone and they punched you for it. Also note,whether the video'r intended to block the BMX rider or not,the BMX ride was breaking the law by undertaking. So he got ticked he couldn't do an illegal move and struck out against the video'r for it. You really can't get mad at someone for not letting you break the law.
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Old 08-13-14, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by dynaryder
FYI,spitting is considered assault in many places. A better analogy would be if you said something insulting to someone and they punched you for it. Also note,whether the video'r intended to block the BMX rider or not,the BMX ride was breaking the law by undertaking. So he got ticked he couldn't do an illegal move and struck out against the video'r for it. You really can't get mad at someone for not letting you break the law.
I totally agree.

Few weeks back some clueless couple riding illegally on sidewalks then tried to cut me off to turn right at the next intersection. This was at an intersection where you can turn left or right & a one way street is in front of you that you cannot go straight onto. Instead of acting a jerk, i simply scooched a bit more to the right so they didn't get in my way & on green left them in the dust as to not have to deal with them further. BMX rider should have just taken a second, let all those vehicles pass & then merged into traffic when there was a clear and present opening to do so.

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Old 08-13-14, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by dynaryder
FYI,spitting is considered assault in many places.
It was about the part where it is illegal and would be fined by a judge. After being spat, or even slapped on the face, if the attacker didn't continue attacking you, in my country it would technically be illegal for you to strike back. You'd have to press charges for insult/assault.

Originally Posted by dynaryder
A better analogy would be if you said something insulting to someone and they punched you for it. Also note,whether the video'r intended to block the BMX rider or not,the BMX ride was breaking the law by undertaking. So he got ticked he couldn't do an illegal move and struck out against the video'r for it. You really can't get mad at someone for not letting you break the law.
Why can't you? In my country it is illegal not to use a bike track where there is one. However, on a part of my commute, there is a place that usually gets blocked by lots of pedestrians not paying attention and vehicles parking in and out. Some 200 meters. I always use the road in that part of the commute, instead of bike track. It is technically illegal, braking the law. Once a BMW driver drove beside me and turned onto me, pushing me off the road, because he thought I had no place there. Had I been able to catch him, I would probably have ended up in jail, but I really got pissed and wanted to retaliate.
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Old 08-13-14, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Clyde1820
The only "tucking in" that I can see is when the camera guy approaches the guy in the white shirt, at which point he realizes he's heading a bit far out into traffic and then tucks in behind the guy.
I had another look at the video. When the rider with the camera gets close to the rider in the white shirt he doesn't 'tuck in', rather he jams on both brakes and opens up a huge gap with the rider in front of him.

My suspicion is that camera man was jerking around with the BMX rider first speeding up so he couldn't pass before the bus and subsequently brake checking the bmx rider.

Sorry, no sympathy here. Reminds me of the quote about messing with a bull...
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Old 08-14-14, 10:12 AM
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Wow, there are some really strange ideas in this thread.

First, a lot of speculation. It looks like roadie might have been trying to cut off MTB dude. We didn't see the video before what was posted, maybe roadie provoked MTB before all this happened. Well, sure, maybe, possibly. There is nothing I see in the video that is definitive evidence of any of this.

Second, a lot of "that's the way the world is out there." Well, sure. And also, there are countries where HIV is endemic and a prevailing belief that you can cure it by having sex with a virgin, so massive numbers of HIV/AIDS+ men raping young girls to try to get rid of their disease. That's also the way the world is, sure, but it in no way justifies anything. There are lots of raging jerks in the world, this does not exuse being a raging jerk.

Others have critqued roadie's riding skills; while not accusing him of deliberate provocation, they say he's unaware of his surroundings or obviously not an experienced rider. Based on what I see in the video, this is possible. But since when is it morally right attack people in potentially lethal ways because they're inexperienced? If this is the standard, how is anyone ever going to become an experienced cyclist?

MTB guy attacked roadie in a way that could easily have resulted in serious injury or death, knocking him off his bike in traffic. That much we know for certain. MTB guy is certainly a grade-A jerk and well deserving of prosecution.

Everything everyone is saying in defense of MTB guy is highly speculative, and the video certainly offers no definitive proof of any of the accusations made against roadie. Sure, maybe it is possible that roadie is actually Hitler, transported in time from 1945, and MTB guy was valiantly trying to save the world from another holocaust. OK, maybe. But I'll need to see a lot more evidence than this video offers before I can find any justification for MTB's attack.
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Old 08-14-14, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by alathIN
Wow, there are some really strange ideas in this thread.

First, a lot of speculation. It looks like roadie might have been trying to cut off MTB dude. We didn't see the video before what was posted, maybe roadie provoked MTB before all this happened. Well, sure, maybe, possibly. There is nothing I see in the video that is definitive evidence of any of this.

Second, a lot of "that's the way the world is out there." Well, sure. And also, there are countries where HIV is endemic and a prevailing belief that you can cure it by having sex with a virgin, so massive numbers of HIV/AIDS+ men raping young girls to try to get rid of their disease. That's also the way the world is, sure, but it in no way justifies anything. There are lots of raging jerks in the world, this does not exuse being a raging jerk.

Others have critqued roadie's riding skills; while not accusing him of deliberate provocation, they say he's unaware of his surroundings or obviously not an experienced rider. Based on what I see in the video, this is possible. But since when is it morally right attack people in potentially lethal ways because they're inexperienced? If this is the standard, how is anyone ever going to become an experienced cyclist?

MTB guy attacked roadie in a way that could easily have resulted in serious injury or death, knocking him off his bike in traffic. That much we know for certain. MTB guy is certainly a grade-A jerk and well deserving of prosecution.

Everything everyone is saying in defense of MTB guy is highly speculative, and the video certainly offers no definitive proof of any of the accusations made against roadie. Sure, maybe it is possible that roadie is actually Hitler, transported in time from 1945, and MTB guy was valiantly trying to save the world from another holocaust. OK, maybe. But I'll need to see a lot more evidence than this video offers before I can find any justification for MTB's attack.
Whom in the video is an MTB rider?
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Old 08-14-14, 11:18 AM
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"to bring him to justice"???

What does he want from him? Yes, the BMXer was a jerk and did commit battery, but I doubt the cops and the courts really give a damn about this sort of thing.

Originally Posted by alathIN
MTB guy attacked roadie in a way that could easily have resulted in serious injury or death, knocking him off his bike in traffic. That much we know for certain. MTB guy is certainly a grade-A jerk and well deserving of prosecution.
Sure, he's deserving of prosecution, but think about this for a second: You walk into a police station with this video, and a name (assuming he figures out who it is), and the statement the person of interest looks a lot like this odd angle of a face in the video and rides a bike that looks the same. And for the sake of argument, let's say this all happens two weeks after the incident. What do you suppose the police will do? Maybe take a report, say that they'll look into it, and promptly forget it.
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Old 08-14-14, 11:38 AM
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Can we at least credit the guy's mad skillz for landing upright on his feet as the bike flips?
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Old 08-14-14, 11:57 AM
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The BMX rider was ahead of the roadie, obviously looking to merge. There was space for one line. In that situation you let the guy merge in front of you. Squeezing the guy out while going at a randomly changing speed (and looking the other way while doing it) makes the roadie seem negligent, lacking in awareness, and selfish. I can understand why the BMXer got angry, and in London people are capable of killing you over less. It's not right to kick someone, but I'm guessing the BMXer probably doesn't realise that a kick in the wheel of a road bike makes it go down, as it probably wouldn't on a BMX (maybe I'm wrong).

I ride a road bike in a place where most people ride granny bikes and MTBs, and I like to go fast (usually because I'm late for work) but I always make the most effort I can to never cut people up, overtake in an aggressive way, or seem like an arrogant prick - I would expect a kick in a teeth too if I did that a few too many times.

Originally Posted by Slaninar
Why can't you? In my country it is illegal not to use a bike track where there is one. However, on a part of my commute, there is a place that usually gets blocked by lots of pedestrians not paying attention and vehicles parking in and out. Some 200 meters. I always use the road in that part of the commute, instead of bike track. It is technically illegal, braking the law. Once a BMW driver drove beside me and turned onto me, pushing me off the road, because he thought I had no place there. Had I been able to catch him, I would probably have ended up in jail, but I really got pissed and wanted to retaliate.
I ride in Novi Sad too (hello!) and I had no idea it was illegal to take the roads where there are paths. I do that all the time when the bike paths are crowded or where they're too bumpy to go fast (Futoshka).
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