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  1. #26
    Immoderator KrisPistofferson's Avatar
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    That Pake is cool, Lem. I guess I'd been hearing the Pake name thrown around, and just assumed it was a Soma model track frame-thanks for the link.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bikeforums
    Your rights end where another poster's feelings begin.

  2. #27
    ♋ ☮♂ ☭ ☯ -=(8)=-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wahoonc
    Uhhh Lem...there must be some serious inflation going on...according to their website it retails for $299.99 But that is still a good deal in my book...now about that internal hub

    Aaron
    Oh yeah.....sorry Aaron. I was a digit or two off...
    Bike.Biz has them for 279.00
    But their software wouldn't let me 'borrow' the image

  3. #28
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    I agree that the old Raleigh 3-speeds were a milestone in cycling. They certainly are more useful as car substitutes than the naked-wheeled, exposed-chain bikes that form the bulk of today's production. The first time I rode one, back in 1962, it was a revelation. The classic American single speeds that I grew up with had a lot less performance. Road bikes were a wow, but too fragile for routine use. The exposed chain and bent riding positions made it necessary to change clothing in order to ride. The 3-speed was not only convenient, but fast and reliable. We couldn't have cars at my prep school, so we used the Raleighs to travel all over the place.

    Memories of riding to the cider mill with a date on a crisp October afternoon are priceless to me. However, the 3 speeds had real faults, which would have been important in other contexts. The gear range was limited for serious hill climbing. The rims were likely steel, with lousy braking in the wet. Lighting was accomplished through a bottle dynamo that screamed like a banshee, except during wet conditions, when it ceased functioning altogether. The headlight was, at best, like a dim flashlight.

    There are modern commuting bikes with drum or disk brakes, hub dynamos, bright lights, and internal hubs with a much greater gear range than those on the old 3 speeds. My Kettler is one of these. Riding it is just like riding an old Raleigh, however, it performs a lot better in all respects. I agree that a traditional upright riding position, fenders and chainguards are necessary, but lighter weight and wider gearing are also important if the goal is to get to work without getting sweaty. In other words, sometimes, convenience requires performance.

    As I recall, the Raleighs were fairly expensive bikes here in the US. I'm not sure what the would cost in today's dollars and pounds, but I don't think they would be cheap. I also suspect that lower-income people have to live further from work and are therefore less likely to benefit from bikes. The population that would benefit pays thousands of dollars per year on parking and may, in consequence, be fairly price-insensitive.

    Paul

  4. #29
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    Ahh, I'm starting to feel the nostalgia in reading this thread. My parents had "his" and "hers" Raleigh 3-speeds when I was growing up, and it was sneaking out on my dad's bike that got me interested in biking as something more than just tooling around the neighborhood. I wonder where those bikes ended up.

  5. #30
    tired donnamb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thdave
    I love the looks of the U frame version but don't care for the double bar in the diamond. Is that required for the frame strength? I'd take the Breezer that model. I just wish all the Breezers came in black. It's classy.

    That said, a no cable bike like that harken's back to the old days and wouldn't need maintenance.
    I've seen Dutch diamond frames without the double bar. I think it's for better strength in carrying heavy loads.

  6. #31
    tired donnamb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -=£em in Pa=-
    This has been posted before so please forgive the redundancy, but this
    comes pretty close except for the corner cutting exposed drive train.
    I think that's about as much as you can cover of a derailler drive system, or can you cover even more? I've got a coworker who is looking at this bike. She's a mountain biker and unlike me, she doesn't mind PNW elaborate derailler care rituals. She is sick of commuting on her mountain bike, so this seems like a cost effective 2nd bike to her. Considering the only other thing this company seems to put out is an expensive track frame, I'm thinking it may be of reasonable quality. The 2 LBSs in town who are Pake dealers don't even have a floor model of this in their stores. It's a pity - I think they'd sell well here.

  7. #32
    Senior Member smurfy's Avatar
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    I like to take older '70s road bikes and "3-speed" them. I think they are better than the original 3-speeds since I use more modern parts and better brakes. Lighter aluminum stuff like h/bars, stems, rims, etc. (none of those awful cottered steel cranks). They are more fun to ride and they weigh alot less while retaining the charm and character of the originals.

    Here are a couple of them in my stable:
    Attached Images Attached Images
    "You handle it like you handle a bicycle" - Jacques Rosay, Airbus A380 test pilot

  8. #33
    ---- buzzman's Avatar
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    I started getting into cycling when I was 15 on a Raleigh Sport 3 speed and toured, commuted and did thousands of miles on the thing (it had a Lucas cyclometer clicking away those miles).

    I'm now rebuilding a nice old Raleigh "British Bobbies" bike with rod brakes and 28" wheels that my father-in-law had for almost 40 years. I'll rebuild the Sturmey Archer hub- it's never been rebuilt but it works great. I used to ride this bike down in Florida when I'd visit and I'd do 50 mile loops on it easily- no hills.

    I'm looking forward to restoring this and using it as an occasional commuting bike. it's kind of perfect.

  9. #34
    Senior Member FRANKIEJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smurfy
    I like to take older '70s road bikes and "3-speed" them. I think they are better than the original 3-speeds since I use more modern parts and better brakes. Lighter aluminum stuff like h/bars, stems, rims, etc. (none of those awful cottered steel cranks). They are more fun to ride and they weigh alot less while retaining the charm and character of the originals.

    Here are a couple of them in my stable:
    Smurfy,

    What is that second bike? The white one. Thanks.

  10. #35
    jcm
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    Quote Originally Posted by closetbiker
    That's me, circa '78. I used to be a "Rock Star". My albums went "Plywood"

    Yeah, In '78 I was also on the road to fame... didn't have a Ricky, though. It was an old Fender Tele bass with a very large Ampeg V4-B. What a boomer. That old stuff is worth a small fortune today.

  11. #36
    jcm
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantoj
    I would like to disagree with everyone who has posted so far in this thread.


    1. There is no reason to revive the old 3-speed. If someone wants one, they can still be found, and a huge amount of effort/money is not required to obtain one.


    2. These bikes are not all that great. Here is a list of objections I have... mostly this is based on my experiences with an old Columbia that my mom has, perhaps the Raleigh is better:

    A. They are heavy.
    B. The internal hub is not as bombproof or maintenance-free as is commonly suggested.
    C. The frame geometry is weird: short cockpit and short crank arms.
    D. A lot of the components are real junk - brakes especially.


    Also, I strongly disagree with the notion that the reason more people aren't biking is because acceptable bikes for normal people are hard to find. Sensible bikes for normal folk ARE quite available; they just don't look exactly like English 3-speeds. And the primary reason more people don't ride bikes is because they are afraid of traffic.

    I would much rather use a classic rigid MTB for a commuter than an English 3-speed. I'd also prefer a modern rigid MTB (Trek SU300) or a modern "commuter" bike over the classic Raleigh. Who wants to ride a 40-lb relic?
    I agree with some of your points, and take issue with others:

    1) Depends on what a person wants. Some like the idea of riding a bike that has a classic appeal. Yes, old ones can be had for pennies on the dollar.

    2) The Raliegh's and Columbia's were close enough in technology so as to represent a good general comparison.

    A) Yes, and built to last into the third generation.
    B) Yes, it is. Absolutely.
    C) Agreed
    D) The brakes are the only component that can really use re-visiting. Everything else is as well thought out as the purpose of the day dictated. They were not junk, but practical tools for basic transportation - usually for short to moderate distances.

    I agree with your synopsis on why people ride or don't. And, the wide availability of sensible bikes. I also use a roadified old school MTB for general purpose cycling. Also occasionally, a long day trip out to a century. Like a 3-speed, it has North Road bars, a sprung Brooks saddle, 1.25" slicks, fenders, racks, a trunk pannier, and it weighs a good 40 pounds with two water bottles that way. Maybe I'm just stronger than most people, but it doesn't bother me in the slightest.

  12. #37
    Senior Member
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    A Claud Butler Knightsbridge may be what you mean:
    http://www.evanscycles.com/product.jsp?style=60984

    I know what you mean about the rubbish mountain bikes though. I often see people on £100 argos full suspension bikes with almost flat tyres. It seems to take a great deal of effort to travel at walking pace.

  13. #38
    Senior Member smurfy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FRANKIEJ
    Smurfy,

    What is that second bike? The white one. Thanks.
    The second one is actually an Austrian-made "Free-Spirit" 10-speed (I guess sold through Sears) with the fenders and 3-speed components from a wrecked '54 Dunelt. The paint color is called Polynesian Sand which I did myself.
    "You handle it like you handle a bicycle" - Jacques Rosay, Airbus A380 test pilot

  14. #39
    Senior Member thdave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhifoe
    A Claud Butler Knightsbridge may be what you mean:
    http://www.evanscycles.com/product.jsp?style=60984

    I know what you mean about the rubbish mountain bikes though. I often see people on £100 argos full suspension bikes with almost flat tyres. It seems to take a great deal of effort to travel at walking pace.
    Are there a lot of mountain bikes in the UK? I didn't think there were any mountains there.

    I'm curious--are there still lots of English 3 speeds sold, or are those out of vogue like in the US? Also, can you comment on the rest of Europe? Are mountain bikes the thing to own there, too?

    Thanks!
    Cleveland, OH
    Breezer fan

  15. #40
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by thdave
    Are there a lot of mountain bikes in the UK? I didn't think there were any mountains there.

    I'm curious--are there still lots of English 3 speeds sold, or are those out of vogue like in the US? Also, can you comment on the rest of Europe? Are mountain bikes the thing to own there, too?

    Thanks!
    There are mountains in the UK, particularly in parts of Scotland and Wales. However the poor quality mountain bikes I see in regular use never go offroad, never mind up a mountain.

    Suspension and disc brakes are currently very popular, especially among the young. I believe Raleigh (a popular UK manufacturer) no longer sell a standard childs bike without suspension. When I bought a hybrid for commuting last year I had trouble finding one without a suspension fork.

  16. #41
    Senior Member wahoonc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thdave
    Are there a lot of mountain bikes in the UK? I didn't think there were any mountains there.
    I don't know about "mountains" but they have plenty of steep hills

    I'm curious--are there still lots of English 3 speeds sold, or are those out of vogue like in the US? Also, can you comment on the rest of Europe? Are mountain bikes the thing to own there, too?

    Thanks!
    Raleigh Great Britain has been out of business since 1999 Three speeds had been a dying market since the 70's. The Raleigh 3 speed as we know it was in it's prime from WWII thru about 1970 then the European light weights began to dominate the market.

    Aaron
    Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(

    ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.

    "Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
    RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"
    _Nicodemus

    "Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
    Aluminum: barely a hundred
    Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"
    _krazygluon

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantoj
    1. There is no reason to revive the old 3-speed. If someone wants one, they can still be found, and a huge amount of effort/money is not required to obtain one.

    2. These bikes are not all that great. Here is a list of objections I have... mostly this is based on my experiences with an old Columbia that my mom has, perhaps the Raleigh is better:

    A. They are heavy.
    B. The internal hub is not as bombproof or maintenance-free as is commonly suggested.
    C. The frame geometry is weird: short cockpit and short crank arms.
    D. A lot of the components are real junk - brakes especially.

    ... Who wants to ride a 40-lb relic?
    We're on a short list, I guess, but I tend to agree with Phantoj. When I see these posts, I always wonder if my experience was with some entirely different kind of animal. I had a Sturmey-Archer 3-speed on a 60s-vintage Schwinn that I used as a commuter for several years. That hub was a seriously demanding PITA. Even changes in temperature would throw the cable tension out of adjustment, and road-gunk would accumulate during a ride and jam the port where the small chain entered the hub. The lowest gear was also worthless for anything more than about a 2-percent grade. I might have liked it better in someplace like Florida, but for someone then living on Puget Sound, it required a lot of hill-walking.

  18. #43
    Senior Member mike's Avatar
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    By the way, in case you are wondering WHO is responsible for the recent interest in old English 3-speeds, it is ME - Mike.

    Yes, that's right. I have to take all the credit. The recently peaked interest in English 3-speeds happened just shortly after I got rid of my entire English 3-speed collection. In fact, I believe that the interest was CAUSED by me getting rid of my English 3-speed collection.

    It is kind of like when there is a drought. If I wash my car, it rains.
    Mike

  19. #44
    Senior Member mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GCRyder
    We're on a short list, I guess, but I tend to agree with Phantoj. When I see these posts, I always wonder if my experience was with some entirely different kind of animal. I had a Sturmey-Archer 3-speed on a 60s-vintage Schwinn that I used as a commuter for several years. That hub was a seriously demanding PITA. Even changes in temperature would throw the cable tension out of adjustment, and road-gunk would accumulate during a ride and jam the port where the small chain entered the hub. The lowest gear was also worthless for anything more than about a 2-percent grade. I might have liked it better in someplace like Florida, but for someone then living on Puget Sound, it required a lot of hill-walking.
    Funny, that is completely different from my experience. I commuted on a Raleigh for years. I put on at least 6,000 miles per year on that bike for about five years. The Sturmey Archer hub required very little maintanance other than oil. IF the shifter cable tension got out of whack like when I changed a tire, then yes, it was a pain in the ash, but once it was dialed back in, it remained faithful and reliable.

    I still marvel at the efficiency of those old steel machines. It was not uncommon to average 19 to 22 mph on longer trips and even around 16 to 18 mph in the city when commuting. That is not much less than the averages I get on my modern road bike. All the while, your body is in a comfortable cruising position.

    Many great bicycle touring trips have been done by millions of folks on English 3-speed bicycles in addition to the daily transportation provided for a generation that was less dependant on motor vehicle transportation than we are today.
    Mike

  20. #45
    Humvee of bikes =Worksman Nightshade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thdave
    There's a whole generation of kids in North America who haven't ridden on well equipped bikes, like the English 3-speeds. They riide mountain bikes, even if they live in the plains. They don't know that a bike can be transportation.

    Bring it on!
    You can thank big oil and dumb govenments that his happened. If it weren't for cheap oil
    and two cars in the garage (or on the lawn ) more people would know that bicycles
    are excellent transportation devices and demand the tried and true ol' English 3 speed.
    My preferred bicycle brand is.......WORKSMAN CYCLES
    I dislike clipless pedals on any city bike since I feel they are unsafe.

    Originally Posted by krazygluon
    Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
    Aluminum: barely a hundred, which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?

  21. #46
    CVB
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    Quote Originally Posted by wahoonc
    $745usd...that is over a month's take home pay for a minimum wage person in the US. Not affordable in my book. .
    .
    .
    .
    many of these people never consider a bicycle as a viable form of transportation and given our road systems I am not surprised.
    If you reverse these two points, you've actually got one of the big reasons why more of these more utilitarian bikes aren't ridden by "normal" people - if our road systems (and urban planning) supported safe and convenient cycling, minimum wage earners wouldn't need to make car payments but instead could purchase reliable transportation with a few months' savings.

    Instead, cycling is deemed unsafe, therefore should only be attempted by the most dedicated or desperate individuals, ergo if a bike does not reflect dedication (i.e. rugged looking mtn bike), it reflects desperation. (I write this as proud owner of 2 salvaged, forty-year old 3 speeds and one beater-ish 7 speed Nexus-hubbed bike.)
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  22. #47
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wahoonc
    Three speeds had been a dying market since the 70's. The Raleigh 3 speed as we know it was in it's prime from WWII thru about 1970 then the European light weights began to dominate the market.
    Perhaps true about 3 speeds and one speeds if the world of cycling (especially cycle commuting) "as we know it" is limited to North America and maybe Britain. Perhaps in the only world "we know" Raleigh and the British made and sold all three speed bikes.

  23. #48
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
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    I really liked my Raleigh 3 speed when I was a kid. I wish I had kept it.

    I think beach cruisers occupy the space 3-speed used to. They are much cheaper than most any bike and have cool paint, fenders, basket, cushy seat and sometimes gears and hand breaks, sometimes one speed and coaster brakes.

    I went to India last month and everyone rides either a single speed English-style bike with metal brakes and narrow upright handlebars, or they ride "fancy bikes" which look like very poorly made mountain bikes with no gears and a rack which is welded to the frame.
    ~Diane
    Recumbents: Lightning Thunderbolt, '06 Catrike Pocket. Upright: Trek Mountain Bike.
    8.5 mile commute. I like bike lanes.

  24. #49
    NJS my life! roughrider504's Avatar
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    If you think all kids ride the junky full suspension bikes, you are wrong! I am much too young for a ID and I love these things. I have three Sturmey Archer equipped bicycles. One [the Schwinn] I converted to 3 speed. Oil the chain once in a while, put a few drops of oil on the indicator, shifter, and hub and it will work fine.


  25. #50
    Senior Member wahoonc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike
    Funny, that is completely different from my experience. I commuted on a Raleigh for years. I put on at least 6,000 miles per year on that bike for about five years. The Sturmey Archer hub required very little maintanance other than oil. IF the shifter cable tension got out of whack like when I changed a tire, then yes, it was a pain in the ash, but once it was dialed back in, it remained faithful and reliable.

    I still marvel at the efficiency of those old steel machines. It was not uncommon to average 19 to 22 mph on longer trips and even around 16 to 18 mph in the city when commuting. That is not much less than the averages I get on my modern road bike. All the while, your body is in a comfortable cruising position.

    Many great bicycle touring trips have been done by millions of folks on English 3-speed bicycles in addition to the daily transportation provided for a generation that was less dependant on motor vehicle transportation than we are today.
    +1

    I still have a 1972 Raleigh Sports that I purchased from a pawn shop in 1982 that bike has over 15,000 documented miles on it as a daily commuter and probably close to that many more after the odometer quit. I rode it daily from 1982 to 1987 my brother rode it daily from 1987 to 1989 I got it back and rode it daily from 1989 to 1994. My brother took it again in 1994 and rode it regularly until 1999. I got it back it had been wrecked, the fork replaced and the offside crank arm, the oil cap was missing off the rear hub and it was making a grinding sound. I stuck in the shed until a couple of months ago, put a new oil cap on it, added a couple good squirts of oil readjusted the cable and rode it 3 miles, it shifts just fine and still rides just like it used to. I don't know of too many other bike that you can do that with. Other than the occasional chain replacement, tires and brake pads it has required minimal or no maintenance. I constantly see people having to replace chains, chain rings and cassettes due to wear with many fewer miles. I have not torn the hub down yet but when I do I expect to find a bit of wear on the pawls and should be it. Also FWIW it is still running the original shifter cable on it.
    Yes it is a heavy bike, but it was built to last and last it has. It was built with steel rims for a reason, that is what was available at the time and was state of the art. Could it be improved on, absolutely and has been in the Breezers and other internal geared bikes. But marketing has taken over common sense and people are sold on the "look" of a mountain bike.

    Aaron
    Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(

    ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.

    "Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
    RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"
    _Nicodemus

    "Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
    Aluminum: barely a hundred
    Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"
    _krazygluon

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