Thinking about IGH
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Thinking about IGH
I've been toying with the idea of putting an IGH on my touring bike (which is my only bike) for the winter. I've always had derailleurs on my bikes for my entire life, but I've noticed that bad weather is hell on the drivetrains, and I've been reading that IGHs are better in rough climates. I'm also getting a little tired of dealing with gears that are always a bit touchy even in the best of conditions, and that require almost constant maintenance. I dream of gears that work smoothly and simply, never skipping a gear or making annoying noises for months at a time, with little or no maintenance. I do have a few concerns, though:
1. How much weight do IGHs add? A little extra weight is okay, since my bike's already a tank, but a lot might not be worth it.
2. There are a lot fewer gears; how does that work out in very hilly terrain? I test rode a bike with IGHs a few months ago, and it seemed to climb well enough, but I wasn't trying to get up the hill at speed, either.
3. I have vertical dropouts, so I apparently would need a chain tensioner. How does that affect efficiency?
4. A big concern is expense. Is a Shimano Nexus 8 okay? Are Rohloff and SRAM/Sachs so much better that they're worth the extra cost?
5. My last concern is demographic: Is there a good reason that derailleurs are installed on about 98% of all bikes? What's the advantage of derailleurs over IGHs, if you're not racing road bikes?
I'd love to hear what people have to say about this.
1. How much weight do IGHs add? A little extra weight is okay, since my bike's already a tank, but a lot might not be worth it.
2. There are a lot fewer gears; how does that work out in very hilly terrain? I test rode a bike with IGHs a few months ago, and it seemed to climb well enough, but I wasn't trying to get up the hill at speed, either.
3. I have vertical dropouts, so I apparently would need a chain tensioner. How does that affect efficiency?
4. A big concern is expense. Is a Shimano Nexus 8 okay? Are Rohloff and SRAM/Sachs so much better that they're worth the extra cost?
5. My last concern is demographic: Is there a good reason that derailleurs are installed on about 98% of all bikes? What's the advantage of derailleurs over IGHs, if you're not racing road bikes?
I'd love to hear what people have to say about this.
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Internally Geared Hub
I like them more and more. Got too many bikes, so the problems you describe is x 20 for me.
Picked up a dumpster bike last week, steptrough Shimano Nexus 4 gears. Been riding it since. Found I use only 1, 2 and 3 gear so I am changing the rear cog from 16 to 18 teeth.
Not sure about the tensioner thing, I`we been thinking the same.
I think 1/2 links for the chain and "ex- center" BB`s is also a way to go. Not sure how it works.
I`d say the Nexus (8) is more than good enough. There is always something more or better or bigger you can buy. If you want to spend money better to get another bike and make sure gears /purpose is differen from the one you`we got. Maybe one fast one more utility type. One of them could be a folder that you can enjoy travelling with (do some research in the folder forum).
Most important is not how many gears you`we got but what gears you`we got and what gears you really need. I am sure you are not using all the gears on your present setup.. And what is wrong about getting off and walking once in a while?
More about IGH here: https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...68#post7487868
I like them more and more. Got too many bikes, so the problems you describe is x 20 for me.
Picked up a dumpster bike last week, steptrough Shimano Nexus 4 gears. Been riding it since. Found I use only 1, 2 and 3 gear so I am changing the rear cog from 16 to 18 teeth.
Not sure about the tensioner thing, I`we been thinking the same.
I think 1/2 links for the chain and "ex- center" BB`s is also a way to go. Not sure how it works.
I`d say the Nexus (8) is more than good enough. There is always something more or better or bigger you can buy. If you want to spend money better to get another bike and make sure gears /purpose is differen from the one you`we got. Maybe one fast one more utility type. One of them could be a folder that you can enjoy travelling with (do some research in the folder forum).
Most important is not how many gears you`we got but what gears you`we got and what gears you really need. I am sure you are not using all the gears on your present setup.. And what is wrong about getting off and walking once in a while?
More about IGH here: https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...68#post7487868
Last edited by badmother; 09-22-08 at 05:12 AM. Reason: spelling
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I've been toying with the idea of putting an IGH on my touring bike (which is my only bike) for the winter. I've always had derailleurs on my bikes for my entire life, but I've noticed that bad weather is hell on the drivetrains, and I've been reading that IGHs are better in rough climates. I'm also getting a little tired of dealing with gears that are always a bit touchy even in the best of conditions, and that require almost constant maintenance. I dream of gears that work smoothly and simply, never skipping a gear or making annoying noises for months at a time, with little or no maintenance. I do have a few concerns, though:
1. How much weight do IGHs add? A little extra weight is okay, since my bike's already a tank, but a lot might not be worth it.
1. How much weight do IGHs add? A little extra weight is okay, since my bike's already a tank, but a lot might not be worth it.
My preference is the IGH, once properly adjusted they are all but maintenance free. I have an old Raleigh Sports with in excess of 30,000 miles on the original hub and it has never been torn down. AFAIK it still has the original rear cog on it. The chain has been replaced a couple of times. The bike was used as a sole source of transportation for 5 years and used in a car light mode for several more.
Aaron
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Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(
ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.
"Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"_Nicodemus
"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred
Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
#5
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At my Italy tour lately the Shimano Alfine 8 gear internal hub proved very useful for me, again. Cheap, rather lightweighted compared to other internal hubs, durable (I have got three of those hubs in different bicycles), no problems so far. Riding my Surly Big Dummy lots of uphill with light baggage up to 220km a day. I was surprised I did not miss derailleurs at all for such distances.
However, there are some important issues you need to check. There is a limited transission range. You need to initially decide, whether you would like to be prepared for slow uphill or fast plain/downhill riding. Choose cogs ratio accordingly. The bigger your cogs ratio gets, the worse you will realize inhomogeneous gaps as like Alfine gear 5-6. I use 34/20 which is sufficient for pedalling speeds up to 38km/h. Pedalling faster becomes kind of cumbersome, which does not really matter to me, since I will simply stop pedalling and wait some time. This is very much related to your riding style as well. But definitely, it works well for my needs, and I may recommend trying it out.
BTW one thing I like very much is the totally silent operation of the Alfine hubs.
I have done quite some onroad and offroad riding with these Alfine hubs, also several thousands of km with an inter-8 redline hub and I had a chance to try out a rohloff for a short time.
Rohloff is the most versatile hub with very convenient transmission range and real good durability. Alfine looks nicer, is a bit lighter and by far cheaper, is easier to install but removing rear wheel is a bit of hassle. And finally the inter-8: use SG-8R35 current version (redline). I would not recommend previous versions (SG-8R20 and SG-8R25) due to inner corrosion and other issues. I cannot tell about any other IGHs.
All in all, I may say I have completely converted to using IGHs with one exception: at my 8kg road bike I would definitely not switch over to using a gear hub due to weight and gear ratio reasons.
I would upgrade my BD to Rohloff as soon as I feel any need for it, but currently there isn't.
However, there are some important issues you need to check. There is a limited transission range. You need to initially decide, whether you would like to be prepared for slow uphill or fast plain/downhill riding. Choose cogs ratio accordingly. The bigger your cogs ratio gets, the worse you will realize inhomogeneous gaps as like Alfine gear 5-6. I use 34/20 which is sufficient for pedalling speeds up to 38km/h. Pedalling faster becomes kind of cumbersome, which does not really matter to me, since I will simply stop pedalling and wait some time. This is very much related to your riding style as well. But definitely, it works well for my needs, and I may recommend trying it out.
BTW one thing I like very much is the totally silent operation of the Alfine hubs.
I have done quite some onroad and offroad riding with these Alfine hubs, also several thousands of km with an inter-8 redline hub and I had a chance to try out a rohloff for a short time.
Rohloff is the most versatile hub with very convenient transmission range and real good durability. Alfine looks nicer, is a bit lighter and by far cheaper, is easier to install but removing rear wheel is a bit of hassle. And finally the inter-8: use SG-8R35 current version (redline). I would not recommend previous versions (SG-8R20 and SG-8R25) due to inner corrosion and other issues. I cannot tell about any other IGHs.
All in all, I may say I have completely converted to using IGHs with one exception: at my 8kg road bike I would definitely not switch over to using a gear hub due to weight and gear ratio reasons.
I would upgrade my BD to Rohloff as soon as I feel any need for it, but currently there isn't.
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#7
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1. How much weight do IGHs add? A little extra weight is okay, since my bike's already a tank, but a lot might not be worth it.
2. There are a lot fewer gears; how does that work out in very hilly terrain? I test rode a bike with IGHs a few months ago, and it seemed to climb well enough, but I wasn't trying to get up the hill at speed, either.
3. I have vertical dropouts, so I apparently would need a chain tensioner. How does that affect efficiency?
4. A big concern is expense. Is a Shimano Nexus 8 okay? Are Rohloff and SRAM/Sachs so much better that they're worth the extra cost?
5. My last concern is demographic: Is there a good reason that derailleurs are installed on about 98% of all bikes? What's the advantage of derailleurs over IGHs, if you're not racing road bikes?
I'd love to hear what people have to say about this.
2. There are a lot fewer gears; how does that work out in very hilly terrain? I test rode a bike with IGHs a few months ago, and it seemed to climb well enough, but I wasn't trying to get up the hill at speed, either.
3. I have vertical dropouts, so I apparently would need a chain tensioner. How does that affect efficiency?
4. A big concern is expense. Is a Shimano Nexus 8 okay? Are Rohloff and SRAM/Sachs so much better that they're worth the extra cost?
5. My last concern is demographic: Is there a good reason that derailleurs are installed on about 98% of all bikes? What's the advantage of derailleurs over IGHs, if you're not racing road bikes?
I'd love to hear what people have to say about this.
2. I think a city bike can be geared low enough with a Nexus 8 to ride hills as long as you are a reasonably strong rider. If you vary your cadence at both ends of the speed range you should be able to ride happily at slow and reasonably fast speeds. Obviously if you gear the bike low going uber fast will be an issue as you'll spin out at some point since your high gear won't be huge.
If you are a strong touring rider who doesn't carry a silly amount of gear I think you can tour with a Nexus 8, but your top speed will be limited. Personally I'm okay with that as I use the 38T x 11-34T range on my touring bike 95% of the time, but if you want to pedal down a mtn pass as fast as possible an eight gear IGH won't cut it. If that's you get a Rohloff for a very wide gear range.
3. The vertical dropouts will require a chain tensioner. This isn't really a problem for efficiency, but it will mean you won't get as much chain wrap around the rear cog and you'll need to deal with a worn chain faster than a bike with no chain tensioner. Not a deal breaker in my books, but a bike with an eccentric BB or horizontal drop outs allows for a nice clean IGH setup.
4. A Nexus 8 is okay in that it is well made, shifts nicely and offers a decent gear range. Will that range be enough for you? Depends - for city riding, most likely, for touring maybe- see my comments above. I can't speak about the SRAM product, but the Rohloff is worth the money if you are really committed to an IGH. If you follow the manufacturer's care instructions the Rohloff hub should work until you can no longer ride a bike. If you want the Coles Notes answer get a Nexus 8 for city riding. For touring you will most likely need a Rohloff or you could just at a double or triple chain ring to your Nexus 8.
5. Derailleurs are cheap [can be at least] easy to work on or replace, efficient when new and clean. They wear out/break relatively often - pro if you sell/service bikes! I think IGHs are a great option for practical riding & touring with one caveat - when something goes wrong you're dead in the water as there will be no service available from a LBS and likely no parts available either without doing some mail order. Of course to understand that risk in context you have to calculate what the likely/possible problems are with an IGH - very few frankly so your risk is quite small.
Last edited by vik; 09-22-08 at 09:11 AM.
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I built up a bike with a Nexus-8. The range is just over 300%. About the same as an 11-34 cassette.
What this means, is that you have to be very careful when selecting the bottom end of your gear range, because the top end moves 3X as much. I currently have the bike geared 40/19, giving a range of ~30-91 gear inches. If I were to lower the bottom end to 25", then the top end would move down to 75 inches.
What this means, is that you have to be very careful when selecting the bottom end of your gear range, because the top end moves 3X as much. I currently have the bike geared 40/19, giving a range of ~30-91 gear inches. If I were to lower the bottom end to 25", then the top end would move down to 75 inches.
#10
Part-time epistemologist
Not much to add other than if you decide to go with a chain tensioner, you can always use a double up front and switch to the small chainring if you really need a low gear for that 5% that everyone seems to reference.
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This idea is staring me in the face, because my bike with the IGH was a 70s/80s 12 speed with a double crankset, and I am currently running on the inner 40T ring with the outer 52T still in place (as ballast). 40/31 + 52/19 should work fine with the same chain length, Would offer a wider range than teh Rohloff, and pretty much handle anything I'd want to try climbing. (~18" granny gear). I haven't been able to find any torque limitation specs on the Nexus 8 though.
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Actually, I have been thinking about trying to fabricate a double rear cog that would allow me to use a second chain ring without needing a tensioner or FD. Hills I can't handle with the current gearing are rare enough that it wouldn't be a huge hassle to manually move the chain to switch ranges.
This idea is staring me in the face, because my bike with the IGH was a 70s/80s 12 speed with a double crankset, and I am currently running on the inner 40T ring with the outer 52T still in place (as ballast). 40/31 + 52/19 should work fine with the same chain length, Would offer a wider range than teh Rohloff, and pretty much handle anything I'd want to try climbing. (~18" granny gear). I haven't been able to find any torque limitation specs on the Nexus 8 though.
This idea is staring me in the face, because my bike with the IGH was a 70s/80s 12 speed with a double crankset, and I am currently running on the inner 40T ring with the outer 52T still in place (as ballast). 40/31 + 52/19 should work fine with the same chain length, Would offer a wider range than teh Rohloff, and pretty much handle anything I'd want to try climbing. (~18" granny gear). I haven't been able to find any torque limitation specs on the Nexus 8 though.
Aaron
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ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.
"Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"_Nicodemus
"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred
Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(
ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.
"Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"_Nicodemus
"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred
Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
#13
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If you do not mind German language you might want to check Trekkingbike magazine article about several IGHs (there are several technical charts there).
Regards, Phil
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Note to those following this: Most IGH hubs have gearing restrictions so you don't overload the internal parts. One way to get granny gears out of this would be to use a 20" wheel. Larger wheels deminish the torque at the road compared to what the hub must endure. Of course smaller wheels have thier own issues....just food for thought.
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There's also the Schlumpf 2 speed BB. Probably too expensive for the occasional need, but very elegant.
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I agree with the effiency issue. On price, the Nexus-8 street price is well under $200. Adding a $500 Schlumpf to that still only brings you to around half the price of the Rohloff. The $700+ difference is what many people might budget for a complete bike.
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But then, why not take an SRAM Hammerschmidt or similar (there is at least more to come, Nicolai I believe). I would prefer those over Schlumpf drive.
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I do like the cable operation of the Hammerschmidt better than the foot operated Schlumpf. I would hope it is less expensive than the Schlumpf...it is mass produced vs. the low volume manufacture of the Sclumpf.
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I haven't yet seen a price for the Hammerschmidt, much less anything from Karlheinz Nicolai. I have also heard a rumor that the Hammerschmidt requires a special bottom bracket. (the frame, not the bearing set) But I have been unable to confirm this.
I do like the cable operation of the Hammerschmidt better than the foot operated Schlumpf. I would hope it is less expensive than the Schlumpf...it is mass produced vs. the low volume manufacture of the Sclumpf.
I do like the cable operation of the Hammerschmidt better than the foot operated Schlumpf. I would hope it is less expensive than the Schlumpf...it is mass produced vs. the low volume manufacture of the Sclumpf.
BTW here is a short clip about climbing 30% of slope with Big Dummy and Alfine 8-spd. internal hub, no front derailleur, 34/20 cogs ratio, very light baggage. Unfortunately it appears quite difficult to make that slope visible. But riding up there is _really_ steep. No I did not push the bike
Regards, Phil
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Although a Rohloff costs twice a that of a Schlumpf + Nexus 8 - you'll still be using it when someone else is on their 3rd set of Sclumpf & Nexus 8 drivetrain. In the long run it's less expensive.
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If a Nexus 8 or SRAM 9 speed doesn't work for your application I'd submit even a $500 Schlumpf is out of the $$$ range of folks who can't drop a lot of money on a bike. At that point a MTB drivertrain is still the best option for cost vs. performance. $700 for a lot of drag in your drivetrain is not an improvement over cleaning a MTB derailleur setup.
Although a Rohloff costs twice a that of a Schlumpf + Nexus 8 - you'll still be using it when someone else is on their 3rd set of Sclumpf & Nexus 8 drivetrain. In the long run it's less expensive.
Although a Rohloff costs twice a that of a Schlumpf + Nexus 8 - you'll still be using it when someone else is on their 3rd set of Sclumpf & Nexus 8 drivetrain. In the long run it's less expensive.
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If you want some empirical evidence just go to a Rohloff forum [Thorn and MTBR.com both have one] and ask people how many kms they've had on their Rohloffs.
I should point out there are wear items with a Rohloff that will have to be replaced as they are worn out:
- shifter
- cables
- cog
- internal oil bath
Last edited by vik; 09-30-08 at 05:18 PM.
#24
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They've made a 100,000 hubs. The longest serving one is over 190,000km in late 2007. I'm not sure where you are getting a short term track record from they've been in production since 1999.
If you want some empirical evidence just go to a Rohloff forum [Thorn and MTBR.com both have one] and ask people how many kms they've had on their Rohloffs.
I should point out there are wear items with a Rohloff that will have to be replaced as they are worn out:
- shifter
- cables
- cog
- internal oil bath
If you want some empirical evidence just go to a Rohloff forum [Thorn and MTBR.com both have one] and ask people how many kms they've had on their Rohloffs.
I should point out there are wear items with a Rohloff that will have to be replaced as they are worn out:
- shifter
- cables
- cog
- internal oil bath
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No I'm the one who is skeptical of unsubstantiated claims that an extremely expensive hub, marketed only since 1999, to a relatively tiny deep pockets crowd has a superior maintenance/reliability record over other IGH hubs, like Sturmey Archer, with a track record of reliability and freedom from maintenance under all conditions for over 50 years. Especially given that Sturmey Archer and Sachs hubs are sold worldwide to people who are not as likely to run to an LBS for routine "servicing" as those buying a pricey hub on a pricey bike.