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  1. #51
    Velocommuter Commando Sirrus Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NormanF View Post
    The more expensive solution is to build the dynamo into the hub. It eliminates tire sidewall wear. You do have to run it with the lights on in the day but that can be a safety feature. Roadsters are workhorse bicycles. That's why they are overbuilt and where durability is concern, weight isn't going to be an issue.
    You don't necessarily have to run with the lights on. Depending on which headlight you use, it may have a switch on it so you can turn it off for slightly less drag.
    Riding 19 Years of Specialized Sirrus Tradition.
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  2. #52
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NormanF View Post
    The more expensive solution is to build the dynamo into the hub. It eliminates tire sidewall wear. You do have to run it with the lights on in the day but that can be a safety feature. Roadsters are workhorse bicycles. That's why they are overbuilt and where durability is concern, weight isn't going to be an issue.
    Price is going to be an issue, except in the niche markets where trendy customers are willing to pay top dollar for "chic" Flying Pigeon type roadsters.
    Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 01-02-09 at 05:08 AM.

  3. #53
    Elmira>Taiwan>Elmira flatlander_48's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirrus Rider View Post
    Looks more like a blog for pitching the Flying Pigeons. The marketing team pulled a few out of stock and pulled off just enough packing to photograph then drove around to various New York landmarks and photographed them to make them look like they were in the "wild." I have to agree they would have been more successful if they would have unpacked the bikes properly.
    No, they would right in step here in Taiwan. People leave the bubble wrap on bike frame tubes, office chair legs, etc. They leave the blue plastic film on bathroom fixtures. They leave the white film on stainless sheet metal. Weird, weird behavior...
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  4. #54
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakub.ner View Post
    Busch & Muller dynamos do.
    Are Busch & Muller bottle dynamos OEM on any Flying Pigeon type utility bikes, anywhere? Outside of a few "chic builds" by/for trendy Westerners, how many bicyclists will ever retrofit a rather esoteric two wire bottle dynamo to a "utility" Flying Pigeon type roadster?

  5. #55
    not a role model JeffS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NormanF View Post
    A billion Chinese can't be wrong.
    Yes... they can ALL be wrong. Every last one of them.

  6. #56
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Are Busch & Muller bottle dynamos OEM on any Flying Pigeon type utility bikes, anywhere?
    I doubt it.

    The discussion leading to bottle dynamos was just an example of lack of quality on the FPs. Please re-read the thread.

    Breezer bicycles use Busch and Muller (http://www.breezerbikes.com/bike_det...&bike=villager), but for the most parts quality utility bicycle manufacturers go for dynohubs now for reasons pointed out by other posters (Breezer and Bikkel included on their higher priced models).


    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Outside of a few "chic builds" by/for trendy Westerners, how many bicyclists will ever retrofit a rather esoteric two wire bottle dynamo to a "utility" Flying Pigeon type roadster?
    Those who do not retrofit or get battery lights probably stop riding when it gets dark or become ninjas.

    ILTB, I think you're getting on my case because you think I'm some sort of overspending hobbyist. Indeed I did use the cheap FP like bottle dynamos (may try again as I still have them and this post is making me want to experiment). I also use a Busch and Muller. I wear normal clothes and I have a milk crate on my bicycle. Just a normal guy using his bike daily for utility as well as adventures. Speaking from experience in my posts. The reason I spent more than I should have on lighting is because I went cheap and got the craptastic bottle dynamo in the first place, before I realized it's serving very little utility since it hardly works.

    EDIT: edited to add last paragraph.
    Last edited by jakub.ner; 01-02-09 at 09:05 AM.

  7. #57
    not a role model JeffS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NormanF View Post
    The more expensive solution is to build the dynamo into the hub. It eliminates tire sidewall wear. You do have to run it with the lights on in the day but that can be a safety feature. Roadsters are workhorse bicycles. That's why they are overbuilt and where durability is concern, weight isn't going to be an issue.
    Heavy doesn't equate to overbuilt. In most cases it points to cheap materials. Rarely does anyone combine cheap materials with quality assembly and labor. Maybe FP is the exception.

    My point is that "cheap and heavy" is a MUCH more suitable description than "overbuilt".

  8. #58
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakub.ner View Post
    ILTB, I think you're getting on my case because you think I'm some sort of overspending hobbyist. Indeed I did use the cheap FP like bottle dynamos (may try again as I still have them and this post is making me want to experiment). I also use a Busch and Muller. I wear normal clothes and I have a milk crate on my bicycle. Just a normal guy using his bike daily for utility as well as adventures. Speaking from experience in my posts. The reason I spent more than I should have on lighting is because I went cheap and got the craptastic bottle dynamo in the first place, before I realized it's serving very little utility since it hardly works.
    Relax, Jacob, nothing personal is intended, nor am I on your case. I believe you are one of the good guys, like me.

    But you are correct, I do tend to question the contradiction, if not hypocrisy of some of those overspending hobbyists who brag and boast about the utility of their custom made "chic" builds or rebuilds, with esoteric, expensive and hard to find components.

  9. #59
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    A Raleigh DL 1 is neither poorly made nor cheap. But at over 40 lbs, its a versatile tank of a bicycle. Stable when carrying a full load.

  10. #60
    Senior Member badmother's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    I have never seen any bottle friction dynamo that came with a second wire
    At least 80% of the older "utility type" bikes I work on do. Wires is most of the time hidden innside the sidesof the fenders, sometime innside the framme and sometimes just on the outside. Soma frames has cot the small "clips" like under the downtube to hold the wires in place.

    I often just take them offsince the equipment ofte is quite heavy to carry around and I would only use it for emergency use. Cykeling ith one of those on is hard work. Ony real option if you want dynolight is the hubs I think.

    Also I`we been thinking: If you put the same bottle dynamo on a 20" wheel and on a 28" wheel, is one going to be much harder to run? Just thinking since the hub is so much lighter to run than the bottle. Different system innside or is distance from axel wery importent? Guess this is hacking the thread but..
    Last edited by badmother; 01-02-09 at 10:39 AM.

  11. #61
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Relax, Jacob, nothing personal is intended, nor am I on your case. ...
    Aww, phew, good, sorry I read into it more than it was .

    I do indeed think we have a very similar point-of-view; for example I tried/adopted your pole light idea. But since I moved and don't travel on very dark high speed roads I don't use it much anymore.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by badmother View Post
    Also I`we been thinking: If you put the same bottle dynamo on a 20" wheel and on a 28" wheel, is one going to be much harder to run? Just thinking since the hub is so much lighter to run than the bottle.
    For a bottle generator the wheel diameter does not matter. All that matters is the speed at which the sidewall is moving relative to the generator contact wheel. This will be close to the same for any size wheel and depends only on the speed of the bike.

    For a hub generator (not that you asked, but for completeness) what matters is rpm of the wheel, and so wheel diameter does matter. If you use a normal hub generator on a small wheel bike it will be:

    1) harder to turn than usual
    2) fully bright at lower speeds
    3) possibly able to overvolt your light at higher speeds

    To deal with these problems there are hub generators like the SON-20 that are designed for small wheel bikes.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakub.ner View Post
    Gray, your statements are false. To quote Peter White regarding the Dynamohalter bracket (same idea as discussed):
    Find the "Cheap Generator Light" thread in the Classic & Vintage Forum. There you will see that I am talking from experience, not something I read somewhere.
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  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
    Also, I have never seen any bottle friction dynamo that came with a second wire
    The dynamo that came with my flying pigeon had two output terminals, but one was for the tail light. It used the frame as a ground. It looked almost exactly like this:



    Perhaps this is what people are remembering about "two terminal" bottle dynamos?

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by graywolf View Post
    The blog is .org, I understand they own the .com but have not put up their website yet.
    There used to be a FPNYC com site, but it's not up any more. This is not the most recent version, but the wayback machine has a cached page from a year ago.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpawboston View Post
    for one, i noticed from even a couple of feet away that the chrome plating is of poor quality (rims, handlebar, stem, etc) and the plated parts will probably start rusting very quickly.
    It doesn't look bad to me, but I'm probably not a great judge of chrome quality. It's not rusting yet, but we'll see.

    Quote Originally Posted by southpawboston View Post
    second, the paint quality is equally poor.
    I didn't find this visually at all. It looked really quite nice when I unpacked it. If you mean in terms of durability, I don't have a good sense of how sturdy most coats of bike paint are, but you could be right. I've scratched it up a good bit, especially when I put on and took off the clamp on dynamo. Then I made the paint a good deal uglier by fixing the scratches with a non-matching color (a matte black instead of glossy).

    Quote Originally Posted by southpawboston View Post
    third, i once replaced a raleigh roadster fork and headset with indian-made clone parts (eastman parts, from yellow-jersey.com), and the welds were shoddy and the headset was poorly machined (the races were actually rough ). the headset felt notchy even with brand new ball bearings. i can't say for certain that the chinese-made clones are as bad as the eastmans, but from the first two indicators i mentioned, i'd estimate that the chinese and indian roadster clones are probably about on par with each other.
    My pigeon hasn't been the horror story I've heard about the eastman roadsters. So I wouldn't judge an FP by eastman quality.

    Quote Originally Posted by southpawboston View Post
    btw-- hey, you're in medford! i'm in somerville, and the two or three flying pigeons i've seen were in cambridge.
    I bike to work in cambridge (fresh pond) daily, so one of those flying pigeons might have been mine.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirrus Rider View Post
    You don't necessarily have to run with the lights on. Depending on which headlight you use, it may have a switch on it so you can turn it off for slightly less drag.
    You could add a switch, too. Though I've found that with my SA X-FDD I can't feel the difference between lights on and off. So I figure daytime running lights make me a bit more visible.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by NormanF View Post
    The more expensive solution is to build the dynamo into the hub. It eliminates tire sidewall wear. You do have to run it with the lights on in the day but that can be a safety feature. Roadsters are workhorse bicycles. That's why they are overbuilt and where durability is concern, weight isn't going to be an issue.
    The reason bottle generators are popular with occassional night riders is that the couple of pounds of weight is the only penalty for having it. A hub generator produces drag 100% of the time.

    The funny thing is that everything is always a trade off. There is nothing that is best for all purposes. One has to figure out what is best for one's own use. Just buying something because it is expensive or because it is cool is not a very intelligent thing to do. For my own riding a heavy old 3-speed with a bottle generator light and a Brooks leather sprung saddle is just about perfect; I have alloy rims, but they cost me a lot of money and provide nothing but bragging rights from a real use viewpoint. To someone who rides very fast for long distances my bicycle would be a joke. To someone who wants to haul 500lb loads it would be about useless. But the bicycles that would be best for those folks would be stupid for my use. I ride an old 35# english racer, a few years ago I gave away a 19# top of the line triathalon bicycle because it no longer fit my needs.
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  19. #69
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by badmother View Post
    At least 80% of the older "utility type" bikes I work on do. Wires is most of the time hidden innside the sidesof the fenders, sometime innside the framme and sometimes just on the outside. Soma frames has cot the small "clips" like under the downtube to hold the wires in place.
    I have only seem utility bikes, equipped with bottle (friction) dynamos, with ONE wire and the frame being used to complete the circuit. Same goes for the 6V headlight and taillight used with these simple systems; one wire and the frame and brackets being used to complete the circuit. My experience is with European and US bikes with bottle generators. Where do you work and see these utility bikes with 2 wire bottle dynamo systems?
    Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 01-02-09 at 10:31 PM.

  20. #70
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbr2702 View Post
    The dynamo that came with my flying pigeon had two output terminals, but one was for the tail light. It used the frame as a ground. It looked almost exactly like this:

    Perhaps this is what people are remembering about "two terminal" bottle dynamos?
    Exactly. One wire to each light, (whether its two terminals as pictured on the unusual 12v system or the more common 6V systems), the frame is the common ground (other "wire") to complete the circuit for both lights. If only one light is used there will only need to be one wire at the generator output terminal.

  21. #71
    Senior Member wahoonc's Avatar
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    Some of the old Miller generators used by Raleigh and other British marques have two wires and DO NOT use the frame as a ground. But that would be the exception rather than the rule. The last one of those I had my hands one was from the early 60's.

    Aaron
    Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(

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  22. #72
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wahoonc View Post
    Some of the old Miller generators used by Raleigh and other British marques have two wires and DO NOT use the frame as a ground. But that would be the exception rather than the rule. The last one of those I had my hands one was from the early 60's.

    Aaron
    My old (1975) Raleigh Superbe with a Dyno Hub also used a two wire system. But that is not a tire friction bottle generator, nor something likely to be found on a Flying Pigeon.

    Back to the original point, the set screw in the bottle dynamo bracket serves to assure an electrical circuit is made through the painted bike frame.

  23. #73
    Senior Member badmother's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbr2702 View Post
    For a bottle generator the wheel diameter does not matter. All that matters is the speed at which the sidewall is moving relative to the generator contact wheel. This will be close to the same for any size wheel and depends only on the speed of the bike.

    For a hub generator (not that you asked, but for completeness) what matters is rpm of the wheel, and so wheel diameter does matter. If you use a normal hub generator on a small wheel bike it will be:

    1) harder to turn than usual
    2) fully bright at lower speeds
    3) possibly able to overvolt your light at higher speeds

    To deal with these problems there are hub generators like the SON-20 that are designed for small wheel bikes.
    Ok, thank you. This is approx what I expected. When asking about speed of wheels I was thinking that on a 20" bike going at 15 km/h the top of the dynobottle is going to turn much faster than on a 28" bike going at same speed, same as you said. Hmm. Need to decide what to do. I find that often the glass (plastic) on the old lights has changed to a "milk like" colour so they are not going to be so bright.

    The housing of the light in the picture (the one from the Pigeon) looks exactely like the lights on some 70`s bikes I am working on just now.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by badmother View Post
    I was thinking that on a 20" bike going at 15 km/h the top of the dynobottle is going to turn much faster than on a 28" bike going at same speed, same as you said.
    Wait. That's not what I said. (Or at least not what I meant to say). The top of the dynobottle will turn the same speed whether you have 20" or 28" wheels.

  25. #75
    Joe-Bike Portland
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    Mundo 18-speed

    Joe Bike has single-, 6-, and 18-speed Mundos in stock. The 18 is simply a 6-speed with an "18-speed conversion kit" that Yuba sells, which is nothing more than a triple crank, front derailleur, longer chain and cable, a second shifter, and a few zip ties. It's well worth the cost and although it should be on their website, you can also do it yourself with extra parts you have lying around. As for the internal hub idea--I'd love to do that, but the 440 lb. cargo capacity of the Mundo necessitates a 48-spoke hub and a 14-mm (BMX) axle, and I haven't found an internal hub with 48 holes, whether it's Sturmey, SRAM, Shimano or Rohloff, much less one with a 14-mm axle. If there is such a thing, somebody tell me and I'll get on it.

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