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Vehicular Cycling (VC) No other subject has polarized the A&S members like VC has. Here's a place to share, debate, and educate.

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Old 10-17-06, 07:49 PM   #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTAC
The guy passed me honking within inches from my hand and then tried to block me from passing him on the right on the stop sign (there was a line of cars and he had to wait for his turn). This last movement could result in an accident if I did not foresee it.
Old saying that applies here: 2 wrongs don't make a right.

First wrong was guy close passing you.

Second wrong was you not waiting in line for the stop sign.
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Old 10-17-06, 08:33 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by galen_52657
Second wrong was you not waiting in line for the stop sign.
Not exactly. The guy was the last in the lane so technically I was not yet passing anyone. But it does not really matter. I provided that as an example of 'unadvertent drift', not as an example how one should ride.
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Old 10-17-06, 08:41 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by CTAC
I'm not going to die in the name of the vehicular cycling or anything else. If something makes people safer that is good.
There it is again. The old "Use the CAR lane and die" defense. If you've read this thread and others, you'll see how bike lanes do a pretty piss poor job at keeping cyclists safe. It's been a long time since I've read of any cyclist being involved in a collision riding in the traffic lane.

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Originally Posted by CTAC
I'd disagree that making drivers aware of the bicyclst presense and giving a bicycle priority in some cases makes such a bicyclist a pedestrian.
What "priority" do bike lanes give to cyclists on a freeway off ramp? Would you die to defend the impression that a bike lane gave you "priority" over motorists on the off ramp?
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Old 10-17-06, 09:33 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by joejack951
There it is again. The old "Use the CAR lane and die" defense. If you've read this thread and others, you'll see how bike lanes do a pretty piss poor job at keeping cyclists safe. It's been a long time since I've read of any cyclist being involved in a collision riding in the traffic lane.
Here you go. The most recent in the same area as in the OP: Killed Cyclist in NorCal Los Altos Hills
I'd more interested to see some actual evidence to your statement. In the Bay Area we have reasonably good designed bicycle lane system that makes bicyclsts safer, according with my experience. We have bad bike lanes, too, but most of the lanes are pretty wide, clearly signed, clean, with parking prohibited on such routes. I can imagine that bicycle lanes in your area are crappy lanes.

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Originally Posted by joejack951
What "priority" do bike lanes give to cyclists on a freeway off ramp? Would you die to defend the impression that a bike lane gave you "priority" over motorists on the off ramp?
I always turn my head to check the traffic. When there is such a lane marked in 90% cases the motorists is already waiting for me to pass. When there is no markings I have to wait for a gap or force them to slow down. There is no 'legal' priority, but that's what people here do.
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Old 10-17-06, 11:03 PM   #255
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For those who have never seen bicycle lane before:
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Old 10-17-06, 11:30 PM   #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTAC
Not exactly. The guy was the last in the lane so technically I was not yet passing anyone. But it does not really matter. I provided that as an example of 'unadvertent drift', not as an example how one should ride.
Do your area has a bus lane? If so, do motorists get angry on bus drivers who always zip by while they are held in a traffic jam?
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Old 10-17-06, 11:46 PM   #257
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Do your area has a bus lane? If so, do motorists get angry on bus drivers who always zip by while they are held in a traffic jam?
The guy I mentioned has apparently moved pretty recently from the NorthEast. At least his accent sounded like that. Locals here are very patient and tolerant. That's of no surprise, though. Silicon Valley is not an ordinary place.
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Old 10-18-06, 12:08 AM   #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joejack951
There it is again. The old "Use the CAR lane and die" defense. If you've read this thread and others, you'll see how bike lanes do a pretty piss poor job at keeping cyclists safe. It's been a long time since I've read of any cyclist being involved in a collision riding in the traffic lane.

What "priority" do bike lanes give to cyclists on a freeway off ramp? Would you die to defend the impression that a bike lane gave you "priority" over motorists on the off ramp?
I do not understand the mentality here.

A bike lane is just another traffic lane reserved for bicycles, just like a bus lane which is reserved for buses. There isn't any "priority" over anybody else, excep that no other types of vehicles such as cars, wheelchairs, joggers, ricksaws, horsedrawn carts, etc., is allowed.

However, while other vehicles are not allowed on the bike lane, you are allowed to use the regular traffic lane. When you come to a ramp, you have to change lane (since freeways are off-limit to bicycles in Canada) to cross the traffic lane to the straight through bike lane. How to change lane? Check the rear view mirror if any, shoulder check, signal, and change lane when safe to do so. If not safe, then simply yield to the traffic in the next lane. If you are hit, it is your fault (improper lane change). In fact, it does not matter whether you are biking or driving ---- if you want to get out of the exit lane to the ramp, do a proper lane change.

I have mentioned many times (and I myself learned very quickly) that bike lanes are not "get out of the way" type of lane for cyclists. For example, in the bike lane showed by CATC, buses and taxicabs still have the right to pull into the bike lane to the curb to load and unload passegers, but when they do that, the normal lane change rule still applies. If you are hit, it is the bus or cab drivers' fault.

It is not the bike lane that will keep or will not keep cyclist safe. It is the failure to understand and follow the rules of the road that endangers your own life. Here in Canada, I have not heard of any cyclists being killed riding on a bike lane. Rather, they get killed where there are no bike lanes.
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Old 10-18-06, 12:27 AM   #259
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I still don't get the whole jihad the Church of VC has against the sanctuaries of my bike lanes.

Yeah, I am a vehicular cyclist...but not a fundie!

CTAC, that looks like some nice quality road!
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Obviously, the guy's like a 12th level white wizard or something. His mere presence is a danger to mortals.
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Old 10-18-06, 01:04 AM   #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTAC
For those who have never seen bicycle lane before:
See the driveway up ahead on the right? That's known as a "place where a right turn is authorized".
California's bike lane law which requires cyclists to ride in bike lanes, has exceptions. One of the exceptions is 21208(a)(4): When approaching a place where a right turn is authorized.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21208.htm

Now, the vast majority of cyclists just blindly keep riding along in a bike lane this, inches from the curb, thinking that's where they're supposed to be. They're oblivious about 21208(a)(4), or its purpose, or its applicability in the situation we see in this photo, or how it's related to the upcoming driveway and all the other places "where a right turn is authorized". See the oncoming traffic? Say one of those drivers will be turning left into a driveway between the cyclist and him? What is the likelihood such a driver will remember to look in the bike lane as well as the main traffic lane before turning left? Why do you think the law requiring cyclists to ride in bike lanes does not apply here?

For cyclists who continue to ride along obliviously at 15-20+ mph in a bike lane like this, inches from the curb where motorists are rarely looking and expecting vehicular traffic, see this thread.

Edit/clarification: At least two people seem to have interpreted the inches from the curb phrase above to mean something like, "just a few inches, definitely less than 12". That's not what I meant. What I meant was "not about 3 feet to the right of passing traffic (the standard recommended VC position in a WOL), and particularly not a few feet from the curb, but just inches from the curb (less than 2 feet). That's where the vast majority of cyclists ride on such a road. Also, I did not mean to imply, as one person thought, that it was the stripe that was keeping cyclists near the curb and that removal of the stripe would cause these cyclists to ride further left.

Last edited by Helmet Head; 10-18-06 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 10-18-06, 09:01 AM   #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTAC
For those who have never seen bicycle lane before:
If you are going to show a BL, at least show a well designed one. This one goes right past an intersection, a possible right turn. It looks like judging by tire marks it is a commonly used one too.
I posted images of very similarly designed BLs in this forum and even BL proponents, like Bek agreed they were all bad BL and I should not use them.
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Old 10-18-06, 09:19 AM   #262
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One problem I see with that bike lane is that it doesn't seem to be designated as a BL... are there any no parking signs anywhere, or is this open to parking too?

Also how fast is trafffic on this road... if only 25MPH, then this is a waste of paint.
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Old 10-18-06, 09:22 AM   #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CTAC
For those who have never seen bicycle lane before:
What is so friggin silly about this bike lane is that the travel lane is about 20' wide! My gawd why would you need a 'bike lane'? Remove and re-paint the fog line at the curb (or leave it out all together) and any moron should be able to ride and drive that road unmolested by either party.

And the best part about that photo...it was pilfered from another thread where the OP complained about taking a fall after hitting the settled paving patch in the foreground of the photo! (so much for 'safe' bike lanes....!!!)

I am beginning to think you west-coasters are a bunch of one-step-removed sidewalk cyclists...
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Old 10-18-06, 10:11 AM   #264
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Oh, man, now that you mention it, that hole in the foreground is deep!
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Old 10-18-06, 10:12 AM   #265
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Show me a cyclist who calls that an example of a good bike lane, and I'll show you a cyclist who is not very good at traffic cycling.
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Old 10-18-06, 10:16 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Now, the vast majority of cyclists just blindly keep riding along in a bike lane this, inches from the curb, thinking that's where they're supposed to be.
False. According with my experience and the study, recenlty discussed on this forum, bicyclists ride farther from the curb with bicycle lane marked.
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Old 10-18-06, 10:20 AM   #267
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How is that a bike lane? It just looks like a shoulder to me. And a crappy one at that.

-D
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Old 10-18-06, 10:25 AM   #268
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Show me a cyclist who calls that an example of a good bike lane, and I'll show you a cyclist who is not very good at traffic cycling.
You mean, yourself?
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Old 10-18-06, 10:28 AM   #269
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That's it, that is not a BL... no one so much was missing, that is just a fog line.
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Old 10-18-06, 10:31 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by derath
How is that a bike lane? It just looks like a shoulder to me. And a crappy one at that.

-D
I was wondering the same thing, the photo strikes me as just being a fairly average paved shoulder. Something I might use from time to time, but deffinitely not something I would make my default road position.
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Old 10-18-06, 10:33 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by genec
That's it, that is not a BL... no one so much was missing, that is just a fog line.
Not according to the OP who started this thread:

Designated Crash Lane

Note other photos show 'bike lane' designation.
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Old 10-18-06, 10:34 AM   #272
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How do folks who haven't been there know it isn't a sub-standard BL? Sure it doesn't have the cyclist icon and no BL signs are visible, but BL signs may be on this stretch out of view and it also may be noted as a road with a BL on the local bike routes map.
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Old 10-18-06, 10:41 AM   #273
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That could be true, but even if it is, it's not a facility that I would use consistently. Note the patch in the foreground of the photo. Indicative of the possibility, or even probability, that this "BL" is not maintained to the same standard as the motor vehicle lane.
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Old 10-18-06, 10:44 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by galen_52657
Not according to the OP who started this thread:

Designated Crash Lane

Note other photos show 'bike lane' designation.
I donno, the BL in the first pic was well marked, had stencils in it and was discontinuous. Is it possible that the OP of that thread simply thought it was a BL?
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Old 10-18-06, 11:00 AM   #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by genec
Of course it helps if "faster traffic" knows how to merge... I saw several instances this AM of folks that not only do not seem to know how to merge, they also act as if they are "privileged" and worked hard to try to cut off other drivers as they drove to the "head of the line."

If they are acting that way with motorists, imagine how they would act toward a cyclist "in their way."

At lunch just now, I was seated at a prime location to watch motorists... and one display just floored me... a female motorist that waited for another motorist and then proceeded to chase a ped off the road.

Love to see that kind of "sharing," it reminds me of how wonderful our driving public can be.
I've had much better luck negotiating merges in my usual cycling/driving area while on my bike than in my car. I think a lot of that possibly has to do with the fact that cyclists don't forget to put their arm down or to turn their head forward, unlike motorists who can forget to turn off their turn signal rendering their real use useless. Note that I'm talking about just times when you need to negotiate room and not when you can simply slow down or speed up to change lanes.
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