Bike Lane deaths
#376
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Well, your original wording was, "Why is it still even acceptable to have BL stripes painted approaching intersections (where there isn't a RTOL)?"
So I assumed you were referring only to intersections big and busy enough to warrant RTOLs if space was available. Apparently, you're also talking at least about intersections with commercial driveway entrances. What about residential driveways? No BL stripe for 100 yards prior to them too?
So I assumed you were referring only to intersections big and busy enough to warrant RTOLs if space was available. Apparently, you're also talking at least about intersections with commercial driveway entrances. What about residential driveways? No BL stripe for 100 yards prior to them too?
The reason there is an intersection is because some vehicle at some time will turn there. There is no safe guessing as to which vehicle may turn and which will not and rating intersections by frequency of use it basically making getting right/left hooked a game of different odds with ones life.
edit: The 'except RTOL' comment was only to pre-emptively fend off the BL defenders comment that installing RTOLs is a better approach. But it is not a practical approach as I can't see a national guidelines that says that every intersection (including driveways) must have a RTOL. Plus it still leaves open the increased chance of not being noticed and getting left hooked.
Al
Last edited by noisebeam; 10-23-06 at 04:57 PM.
#377
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
Yes, any, all, every intersection. Residential too.
The reason there is an intersection is because some vehicle at some time will turn there. There is no safe guessing as to which vehicle may turn and which will not and rating intersections by frequency of use it basically making getting right/left hooked a game of different odds with ones life.
edit: The 'except RTOL' comment was only to pre-emptively fend off the BL defenders comment that installing RTOLs is a better approach. But it is not a practical approach as I can't see a national guidelines that says that every intersection (including driveways) must have a RTOL. Plus it still leaves open the increased chance of not being noticed and getting left hooked.
Al
The reason there is an intersection is because some vehicle at some time will turn there. There is no safe guessing as to which vehicle may turn and which will not and rating intersections by frequency of use it basically making getting right/left hooked a game of different odds with ones life.
edit: The 'except RTOL' comment was only to pre-emptively fend off the BL defenders comment that installing RTOLs is a better approach. But it is not a practical approach as I can't see a national guidelines that says that every intersection (including driveways) must have a RTOL. Plus it still leaves open the increased chance of not being noticed and getting left hooked.
Al
#378
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Okay. So, if your rule would apply, what percent of bike lane stripe miles would you expect to be eliminated as a result?
Al
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
Pretty much all of them in urban areas.
Al
Al
Much of older San Diegan suburbs have residences along the main arterials.
Even in newer areas, there are not too many arterials with very long stretches that are totally intersection and parking free for hundreds of yards.
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
And suburban areas? They have driveways everywhere too, except maybe on the main arterials.
Much of older San Diegan suburbs have residences along the main arterials.
Even in newer areas, there are not too many arterials with very long stretches that are totally intersection free for hundreds of yards.
Much of older San Diegan suburbs have residences along the main arterials.
Even in newer areas, there are not too many arterials with very long stretches that are totally intersection free for hundreds of yards.
I am finding there is enough traffic volume and intersections in phoenix-metro type subrubia as to better describe it as urban for traffic discussion purposes. Technically it may be surburban, but its not the large grassy lots with winding roads connecting them and a shopping center where the turn off from the highway is, type suburbia.
Yes, here too there are residential driveways along arterials and its very hard to find a 1/4mi stretch of arterial without an intersection.
The city I live in, although considered technically a suburb of Phoenix is the most densely populated city in Arizona.
Play with this link, zoom in an change to satellite view and see for yourself.
https://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=e...,0.085573&om=1
Al
Last edited by noisebeam; 10-24-06 at 12:59 PM.
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Interesting reading https://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:...&ct=clnk&cd=11 regarding the collision that killed Sydney:
cut & paste:
'There was no doubt what caused the accident. "Carelessness," said Douglas County sheriff's Deputy Adam Cataffo, the accident's chief investigator.
But it wasn't that simple.
It was a bright, sunny day on a curvy hillside, with signs, homes, trees, a high school on the hill and other visual clutter to camouflage the cyclist.
There was little room for error. Only a ribbon of white paint ran between the busy street and the bike lane. Patrick's car drifted across the line as the road curved gently to the left in front of his high school.
Any driver would've needed to pay close attention.
The witness in the next lane never saw Price on his bicycle, only the aftermath.
"It was very difficult, at best, to see where Mr. Price would have been," Cataffo said.'
cut & paste:
'There was no doubt what caused the accident. "Carelessness," said Douglas County sheriff's Deputy Adam Cataffo, the accident's chief investigator.
But it wasn't that simple.
It was a bright, sunny day on a curvy hillside, with signs, homes, trees, a high school on the hill and other visual clutter to camouflage the cyclist.
There was little room for error. Only a ribbon of white paint ran between the busy street and the bike lane. Patrick's car drifted across the line as the road curved gently to the left in front of his high school.
Any driver would've needed to pay close attention.
The witness in the next lane never saw Price on his bicycle, only the aftermath.
"It was very difficult, at best, to see where Mr. Price would have been," Cataffo said.'
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#384
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This topic is sick. Taking glee for your "side" by using the deaths of others. That's just sick.
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Originally Posted by sbhikes
This topic is sick. Taking glee for your "side" by using the deaths of others. That's just sick.
If you want to be dumb, fine. But other folks might want to the information and try to make a rational decision on their own.
After all, the decision they make (weather to use or not use bike lanes and weather to promote or not promote bike lanes) may save someone from injury or worse... it might just save themselves.
#386
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Originally Posted by galen_52657
Your sick is my information. Hiding your head in the sand and pretending that bike lanes don't have any safety problems is dumb. Just plain old dumb.
This thread simply "scores" the death of cyclists on the far right edge of the road, where they would be riding even if a stripe did not exist...
Be honest and ask yourself where you would ride on a 50MPH WOL...
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Originally Posted by sbhikes
This topic is sick. Taking glee for your "side" by using the deaths of others. That's just sick.
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Originally Posted by genec
Yes, bike lanes have problems... but this thread is far from balanced in that it also does not report cyclist deaths out of bike lanes.
This thread simply "scores" the death of cyclists on the far right edge of the road, where they would be riding even if a stripe did not exist...
Be honest and ask yourself where you would ride on a 50MPH WOL...
This thread simply "scores" the death of cyclists on the far right edge of the road, where they would be riding even if a stripe did not exist...
Be honest and ask yourself where you would ride on a 50MPH WOL...
If somebody wants to start a thread about non-bike lane collisions or a thread about non-bike lane collisions vs. bike lane collisions (which I think is more pertinent then actual deaths and not so morbid for the weak of stomach), I would welcome it.
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Originally Posted by galen_52657
Genec, I was on a 50 MPH two-lane road Saturday with moderate traffic. Lane was < 12' wide and me an my buds took up the whole lane most of the time riding in a tight two-abreast paceline. Somehow, every single car/truck/SUV/motor-home/motorcycle got around us without incident.
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Where would you be riding on this road when you are NOT in a paceline, and without a supporting cast of other cyclists on a weekday in moderate to heavy traffic? In other words the typical cycling scenario for cyclists for whom bike facilities are intended; not a recreational playground for club cyclists.
#391
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I just happened to notice this comment:
FWIW there are numerous types of lanes in MD and it can get very confusing but the major types that cyclists should be aware of are bike lanes, curb lanes and shoulders. We are required by law to ride in bike lanes and shoulders (unless there are hazards) but we are not required to ride in curb lanes. The main distinctions are; bike lanes have the bike symbol in them, shoulders are wide enough to park a car in and curb lanes are what’s left. We have been trying to keep the bike symbol out of questionable bike lanes because of our stupid law and the state has been trying to give us something along side the road so there has been an increase in the amount of 2-3 foot curb lanes in the state but they are not bike lanes!
Originally Posted by galen_52657
I don't know who's bike lanes you have. Thanking my lucky stars, we have few bike lanes here around Baltimore or anywhere in Maryland. I have seen (but not ridden) a few. They can be as narrow as 2'!
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They just keep adding up....
https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycling/252054-another-cyling-fatality.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycling/252054-another-cyling-fatality.html
#393
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Originally Posted by galen_52657
I'm concerned as to the number of posters in that thread who have expressed surprise that the motorist apparently did not see the cyclist in the bike lane. Here are some samples:
- "but it's a fact of life to be taken into account everytime we ride."
- "He did everything right...It could happen to anyone of us. Seems so hopeless..."
In addition, the notion that somehow penalizing the rare motorist who, due to inattention, kills a cyclist who was doing nothing legally wrong is going to make cycling safer to some significant degree is expressed a number of times.
On the other hand, there is this insightful post from biker7:
Originally Posted by biker7
Don't believe there is a loud enough voice to change the laws from cyclists. Nor would that keep another stupid or drunk driver from running down a cyclist out on the road. Guys...since this whole thing is quite common, will give you my $0.02. Cyclists that ride along side of a road are at big risk. I make every point to minimize my riding on fast traveled roads...above 25 mph. Those who ride in bike lanes in particular that are part of the road get run over all the time. I believe that cyclists that travel this type of lane are lulled into a false sense of security or they feel secure because they are riding in a dedicated bike lane adjacent to the road. Truth is...they may be even more liable to getting run over then cyclists that share the road with cars...with no adjacent bike lane. Would love to see the stats on this...believe A to B...there aren't nearly as many bike lanes adjacent to the road as compared to cyclists who ride on the road. That said, I try to spend most of my time riding my bike on dedicated bike trails....well off public roads. They aren't safe either...but worse case is head on with a bicycle or hitting a roller blader or runner and you likely won't die from any of those occurences. Biggest issue is getting run over from behind...again, I believe that dedicated bike lanes "that share the road" are more dangerous then riding out on the road. This is because these so called dedicated bike lanes on the road are construed by the driving public as nothing more then a shoulder to their right of way.
George
George
George is right. And you can't be safe out in traffic if you're surprised when they don't notice you while you're riding "out of the way".
To be clear, it appears this cyclist did nothing wrong and the motorist should be totally responsible in the eyes of the law. However, if we are to take responsibility for our own lives while cycling in traffic, there are things we can do to protect ourselves even when the motorists are totally at fault. That's what this is about.
The cyclist was in a bike lane as he was approaching an intersection.
Bike lanes, especially in most locations in most of the U.S., are unoccupied most of the time.
The latest research in the new cognitive science field of inattentional blindness indicates that many drivers are likely to not notice something or someone right in front of them that they do not expect to be there.
Because bike lanes are usually unoccupied, you can count on drivers to develop the expectation that bike lanes will be unoccupied. Expecting bike lanes to be unoccupied makes one much less likely to see you in the bike lane. Ride accordingly: assume the bike lane stripe marks the edge of an invisibile field: when you're inside of the bike lane many are likely to not notice you.
Bicyclists in traffic, certainly more than motorists, and arguably even more than motorcyclists, should have very keen situational awareness. In particular, if you're riding in a bike lane, especially as you're approaching an intersection, be aware of who is approaching from behind (a mirror helps a lot), and whether they are exhibiting signs of having noticed you. This is much easier to develop into a regular habit than you might think.
The bike lane slaughter will continue until cyclists understand how the human mind works, including the human driver mind, and act accordingly.
Cognitive conspicuity (being relevant to the driver) is at least as important as sensory conspicuity (lights, bright clothing). When you're in a bike lane you're irrelevant to the driver he expects the bike lane to be empty and, so, does not even notice you.
Position yourself in the road to maximize cognitive conspicuity.
If you have much experience riding in traffic and experimenting with both positioning that makes you more conspicuous and positioning that tries to get you "out of the way" (including riding in bike lanes), especially if you have a mirror and high situational awareness, then you probably know first hand how much more drivers are aware of you and notice you when you're riding conspicuously then when you're not. The difference is so stark it's probably impossible to imagine until you experience it yourself.
That's all I'm going to say on this topic.
Reference:
https://hubel.sfasu.edu/courseinfo/SL..._blindness.htm
Excerpt:
"Most people believe that if our eyes are open, we are seeing.
Cognitive scientists once thought the same way. They thought our
visual perception acted much like a videotape recorder with the mind
recording everything the eyes take in. We now know that this is not
the case. More and more, perception studies are demonstrating how
little people actually see when they are not paying attention
(Carpenter, 2001). "
#394
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Of course with this approach: "I make every point to minimize my riding on fast traveled roads...above 25 mph...." Biker7 could not be a commuter in most big cities... including San Diego, where heavily traveled arterial roads typically move at 45MPH+
So much for the practical aspects of cycling, eh.
EDIT: So HH, quoting from a guy that won't even ride the roads you regularly ride... great source.
So much for the practical aspects of cycling, eh.
EDIT: So HH, quoting from a guy that won't even ride the roads you regularly ride... great source.
Last edited by genec; 12-13-06 at 07:41 PM.
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Hi everybody. Just a few comments and back to my break from bikeforums...
The bike lane slaughter will continue... Cognitive conspicuity...sensory conspicuity...
That's all I'm going to say on this topic.
The bike lane slaughter will continue... Cognitive conspicuity...sensory conspicuity...
That's all I'm going to say on this topic.
Same ol', same ol'
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And the bike lane whacking continues...
https://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-safety/257587-hit-right-turning-car-today.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-safety/257587-hit-right-turning-car-today.html
#397
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Originally Posted by galen_52657
Blaming bike lanes for cycling accidents is like blaming hiways for drunk driving.
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Originally Posted by genec
Hey no one died in this incident... Yes, a BL was involved, but would the outcome have been any different if there were no stripe on the road, and the cyclist just continued as they were, with the motorist aggressivly making that right turn?
Blaming bike lanes for cycling accidents is like blaming hiways for drunk driving.
Blaming bike lanes for cycling accidents is like blaming hiways for drunk driving.
Right hooks happen at intersections without BL stripes, to be sure. Ultimately it is the behavior that causes the crashes. The contributory behavioral factors include:
- The cyclist is going straight from "right turn space" if you will - the space normally used by drivers who are not going straight but turning right.
- The motorist is not "as far right as practicable" as he approaches the intersection and makes his turn.
- After the motorist passes the cyclist and slows down, the cyclist does not slow down, and, instead, commences passing the slowing motorist on the right.
Ultimately, it is those three behaviorial factors that have nothing to do with the stripe that cause the collision. But to the extent that the bike lane stripe, even if it is dashed at that point, encourages any or all of this behavior, it is a secondary but significant contributory factor as well.
And, as I pointed out many times before, to the extent that the BL stripe at intersection approaches "trains" right-turning motorists and through cyclists to behave in accordance to (1) and (2) at intersections with bike lanes, bike lanes in general are even contributory factors when these learned behaviors are transferred to intersections without bike lanes.
Even on this forum despite all my pontificating very few (including even you apparently) can seem to apply this understanding to real world situations. Note the original thread on the particular incident we're discussing, and how few noted the relevance of the cyclist's positioning as a contributory factor (with notable exceptions like Stephen Goodridge who of course noted it right away). This illustrates how few really understand the mechanics and safety purpose of destination positioning, and how bike lanes (except those to the left of RTOLs) contradict it.
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And if a bike lane did not exist, then would the accident have been prevented?
I fully understand the issues you present, and I also understand that much of what a cyclist has to do to avoid accidents with motor vehicles has a lot to do with compensating for the lack of good driving habits by motorists.
Speeding up to pass a cyclist and then making a sharp turn is a bad habit portrayed by motorists that feel they must pass a bicycle at all costs... a bad habit by motorists who are not willing to truly share the road.
I fully understand the issues you present, and I also understand that much of what a cyclist has to do to avoid accidents with motor vehicles has a lot to do with compensating for the lack of good driving habits by motorists.
Speeding up to pass a cyclist and then making a sharp turn is a bad habit portrayed by motorists that feel they must pass a bicycle at all costs... a bad habit by motorists who are not willing to truly share the road.
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Yes, luckily nobody died. But, that is beside the point. Was the drive at fault? Technically, yes. Did the bike lane contribute to the right hook? I think it did. Bike lane positions the rider 'out of the way of motorists'.
You get right hooked in a standard travel lane, but it's a little harder. Especially if you ride in or slightly left of the right tire track. And, especially if you position yourself further left when approaching intersections and driveways.
The thing about bike lanes is they inhibit the cyclist from taking a ceterish position at intersection and driveways, especially in an urban setting where there might be a driveway every few yards.
You get right hooked in a standard travel lane, but it's a little harder. Especially if you ride in or slightly left of the right tire track. And, especially if you position yourself further left when approaching intersections and driveways.
The thing about bike lanes is they inhibit the cyclist from taking a ceterish position at intersection and driveways, especially in an urban setting where there might be a driveway every few yards.
Originally Posted by genec
Hey no one died in this incident... Yes, a BL was involved, but would the outcome have been any different if there were no stripe on the road, and the cyclist just continued as they were, with the motorist aggressivly making that right turn?
Blaming bike lanes for cycling accidents is like blaming hiways for drunk driving.
Blaming bike lanes for cycling accidents is like blaming hiways for drunk driving.