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  1. #51
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chroot
    People drift into adjacent lanes intended for cars just as often as they drift into lanes intended for bicycles. Ask any motorcyclist.

    - Warren
    Hell, yeah! I saw 5 of them in a row today drift over to my side of the street from the other side of the double-yellow line. One of them came dangerously close to me as I was taking the lane up the hill.

    The only reason a lot of bicyclists get killed in bike lanes is because that is where they are. How many motorists got killed driving on the street? Is it more or less than how many motorists get killed driving on the sidewalk?
    ~Diane
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    8.5 mile commute. I like bike lanes.

  2. #52
    CRIKEY!!!!!!! Cyclaholic's Avatar
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    HH, your theory that drivers are more aware of something if its in their lane rather than off to the side is totally wrong. A very common car-car collision is the 'rear ender' (according to my friend who owns two panel shops it's the most common one they see) so if drivers don't see another car in front of them what chance do we have of being seen on a bike? There is a huge difference between being rear-ended in your car and rear-ended on your bike, maybe you should think about that every time you're the last 'vehichle' stopped in a line of traffic and a car approaches from behind.... is this the one thats not going to stop?.... so whats the VC trick for determining that before you're squashed between 2 cars?
    There are 10 types of people in the world - the ones that can count in base 2, the ones that can't count in base 2, and the ones that didn't expect this to be in base 3.

  3. #53
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclaholic
    HH, your theory that drivers are more aware of something if its in their lane rather than off to the side is totally wrong. A very common car-car collision is the 'rear ender'
    The fact that rear enders are common car-car collisions (which I know and do not dispute) has no bearing on the phenomenon I'm talking about.

    When there is a car-car collision that is a rear ender, how often do you think it happens because the one behind didn't see the one in front of him? I'll bet very rarely. The cause of these is usually unexpected behavior. For example, light turns green, car 1 starts going, car 2 starts going, suddenly driver of car 1 notices a pedestrian, hits the brakes, and car 2 rear ends car 1.

    What I'm talking about is when someone is driving along at speed, relatively relaxed, not intending on turning anywhere or going anywhere other than continuing to go straight. It is that person who is likely to be paying much more attention to what is up ahead in his intended path, which is his lane, and not so much to what is outside of his intended path which includes cyclists riding up ahead in the shoulder or bike lane.

    So, the fact that rear enders are common car-car collisions has no bearing on this phenomenon.

  4. #54
    CRIKEY!!!!!!! Cyclaholic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    The fact that rear enders are common car-car collisions (which I know and do not dispute) has no bearing on the phenomenon I'm talking about.

    When there is a car-car collision that is a rear ender, how often do you think it happens because the one behind didn't see the one in front of him? I'll bet very rarely. The cause of these is usually unexpected behavior. For example, light turns green, car 1 starts going, car 2 starts going, suddenly driver of car 1 notices a pedestrian, hits the brakes, and car 2 rear ends car 1.

    What I'm talking about is when someone is driving along at speed, relatively relaxed, not intending on turning anywhere or going anywhere other than continuing to go straight. It is that person who is likely to be paying much more attention to what is up ahead in his intended path, which is his lane, and not so much to what is outside of his intended path which includes cyclists riding up ahead in the shoulder or bike lane.

    So, the fact that rear enders are common car-car collisions has no bearing on this phenomenon.
    That's fine but the examle you present is the most common one in traffic where the speeds are almost constantly changing and you have start-stop traffic at lights, stop signs, etc. and where your vc cyclist would be taking the lane possibly right behind that vehichle that stops suddendly and gets rearended. so how do you mitigate that risk as a VC cyclist?

    The situation you describe as "relatively relaxed, not intending on turning anywhere or going anywhere other than continuing to go straight" sounds like a freeway to me where you have already stated your support for bike lanes. So clearly the greatest risk of a rear ender exists when a vc cyclist is most likely to be in the lane directly behind the car that gets rear ended.
    There are 10 types of people in the world - the ones that can count in base 2, the ones that can't count in base 2, and the ones that didn't expect this to be in base 3.

  5. #55
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul L.
    OK, getting theoretical here because that is where the traffic engineers dwell (or at least it seems that way sometimes). Supposing that Bike Lanes had no debris, and were smooth and well designed, What would be wrong with traffic flowing smoothly past a cyclist who also is riding along un-obstructed? How is that more dangerous? What we are describing here is a slow moving vehicle lane dedicated for bicycle use. If they worked as designed how would they be arguably more dangerous? Once we establish this we can talk about shortcomings. When motorists can pass me with less worry then I get less harassment and that makes greater safety in my mind. Not that I don't ride roads without bike lanes but just having a little trouble getting your logic here as far as well designed bike lanes making things more dangerous. Now ill designed bike lanes is another story but it seems like we are dealing in generalities here so lets assume a utopian bike lane.
    This statement makes it sound like you think that some drivers who hit cyclists do so intentionally or maliciously, while they are "worried" and "harrassing" cyclists. I think that kind of paranoia explains one reason for the popularity of bike lane stripes.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  6. #56
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patc
    Pretty low of you to use a death like this as a tool in your personal vendetta. Of course, we all know you would have completely ignored this news item had the death occured on a WOL or normal lane with all other details identical.
    You mean Like MADD exploited the deaths of people hit by drunk drivers?


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  7. #57
    Dubito ergo sum. patc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody
    You mean Like MADD exploited the deaths of people hit by drunk drivers?
    Why are you quoting a post from October? I didn't even remember having a sub to this thread!

  8. #58
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patc
    Why are you quoting a post from October? I didn't even remember having a sub to this thread!
    I wasn't the one who bumped it, grumpy.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  9. #59
    Banned. sngltrackdufus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by galen_52657
    I don't think the fact that the victim was riding in a 'bike lane' had much to do with it. She could have just as easily been riding on the shoulder, not a 'bike lane' per say.

    The old guy that hit her was not watching where he was going plain and simple. You could be standing in your front yard and get hit by some motorist who's not watching where they are going...
    Or for that fact , you can be sitting in your front room & be run over...lol.
    there has been a few cars in this neighborhood that has careened through front yards & straight into houses & apartments.

  10. #60
    Banned. sngltrackdufus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody
    This statement makes it sound like you think that some drivers who hit cyclists do so intentionally or maliciously, while they are "worried" and "harrassing" cyclists. I think that kind of paranoia explains one reason for the popularity of bike lane stripes.
    I believe that car operators do pull in front of cyclists intentionally sometimes. Call it what ever you like.

  11. #61
    Dubito ergo sum. patc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody
    I wasn't the one who bumped it, grumpy.
    I'm not grumpy, just wondering why you would quote text from two seasons ago. Sure, the thread has been bumped, but you chose to reply to an old post instead of a new one. Surely you had a reason, and didn't just do it as a waste of time. You had new posts to respond to in the flow of thread if you cared about the current direction of the conversation. How productive can it be to respond to things months old?

    As to your question... no, the original post was not "...Like MADD exploited the deaths of people hit by drunk drivers". It was more like a prohobitionist using a death resulting from worker negligence at a brewery as evidence of the "evils" of alcohol.

  12. #62
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Another bike lane death caused by yet another motorist drifting inadvertently into the bike lane:

    sensationalism?

    Same fatality, different thread:

    Cellphone blamed
    Last edited by Helmet Head; 05-04-06 at 06:00 PM.

  13. #63
    Senior Member Keith99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes
    Hell, yeah! I saw 5 of them in a row today drift over to my side of the street from the other side of the double-yellow line. One of them came dangerously close to me as I was taking the lane up the hill.

    The only reason a lot of bicyclists get killed in bike lanes is because that is where they are. How many motorists got killed driving on the street? Is it more or less than how many motorists get killed driving on the sidewalk?
    Agree. The reducio ad absurdium would be to point very few cyclists get killed riding in hte fast lane on the freeway.

    But we should not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Just because Serge pushes the point too far does not mean there is no validity to it. Let's take the bike lane in the door zone. The cyclist is somewhere unexpected AND somewhat camoflaged by the background of parked cars. I think there is a valid point in this case. But in some of the nicer bike lanes I have seen the cyclist is out from the curb and not near anything else, and if the rider is in a colorful kit or safety geek yellow they stick out like a sore thumb.

    One other thing. Years ago riding out on a highway with limited shoulder, wide lanes and several riders in a group I ended up riding on the shoulder line for about a mile. I thought my bike was having problems in the rear hub. It was making the kind of noise you get when bearings were not greased. Turns out it was a kind of paint designed to alert drifting drivers. It seems it is almost as good as tightly packed dots. I think that paint is ideal for bike lane lines. Alerts drifting drivers and I think not nearly the slickness in hte rain problems that ordinary paint has.

  14. #64
    Senior Member Bruce Rosar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody
    You are actually describing the newest concept of road design. This has already been tried in several countries. There are no lane markers, stripes or signs of any kind. There are no separate facilities (sidewalks) for pedestrians, let alone cyclists.
    Sounds like the new (in Europe and North America) engineering approach to urban traffic design that has been called designing for negotiation.
    Humantransport.org: Advocacy on behalf of humans traveling under their own power

  15. #65
    Senior Member Bruce Rosar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith99
    ... in some of the nicer bike lanes I have seen the cyclist is out from the curb and not near anything else...
    BTW, a narrow travel lane could provide the same benefit without the segregation.
    Humantransport.org: Advocacy on behalf of humans traveling under their own power

  16. #66
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Bruces' statement in #65 is patently false; a narrow outside laned roadway does NOT provide all the advantages of a preferred lane for bicyclists. In addition, plying the 'segregation' gambit is a dubious and misleading way of fingering bike lanes as the cause of these tragedies.

    Skewed, maligned, misleading, and macabre. These deaths were a result of distracted drivers, some vague 'cyclosegregation' myths, or gorillas playing basketball?


    in a related construct, most of us northern tier commuters that ride year round are familiar with riding to and fro in the dark.

    I think visibility is more important than lane position after dark.

    At night, which is more crucial for driver recognition and negotiation past cyclists? Visibility, or lane position?

    Mr, HEAD, when is the last time YOU rode at night? Do you feel visibility, or lane position, is a more valuable tool for cyclist recognition after dark?

    Here is a picture of a particularily useful velotransit accomodation for Seattle bicyclists, day or night, in the picture below. At night, what would be a good choice of positioning-to the right of the passable WOL( to the right of the bike lane stripe, i mean), or out in the main travel lane?

    and if the rider was using no lights or visibility equipment at night, where would the cyclist be the safest - where would a night riding, darklighter bicyclist position themselves for maximum safety on this roadway- in the main travel lane, or to the right, in the velotransit lane?

    Why am i even posting in this macabe thread? Mr. HEAD, he even bumped his own 'bike lane death' thread in march with a 'bike lane accident' to keep his spiel alive, his hype about vague 'notions', his illusory armchair observations. Downright macabre.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Bekologist; 05-05-06 at 02:16 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  17. #67
    hill hater nova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    Bruces' statement in #65 is patently false; a narrow outside laned roadway does NOT provide all the advantages of a preferred lane for bicyclists. In addition, plying the 'segregation' gambit is a dubious and misleading way of fingering bike lanes as the cause of these tragedies.

    Skewed, maligned, misleading, and macabre. These deaths were a result of distracted drivers, some vague 'cyclosegregation' myths, or gorillas playing basketball?


    in a related construct, most of us northern tier commuters that ride year round are familiar with riding to and fro in the dark.

    I think visibility is more important than lane position after dark.

    At night, which is more crucial for driver recognition and negotiation past cyclists? Visibility, or lane position?

    Mr, HEAD, when is the last time YOU rode at night? Do you feel visibility, or lane position, is a more valuable tool for cyclist recognition after dark?

    Here is a picture of a particularily useful velotransit accomodation for Seattle bicyclists, day or night, in the picture below. At night, what would be a good choice of positioning-to the right of the passable WOL( to the right of the bike lane stripe, i mean), or out in the main travel lane?

    and if the rider was using no lights or visibility equipment at night, where would the cyclist be the safest - where would a night riding, darklighter bicyclist position themselves for maximum safety on this roadway- in the main travel lane, or to the right, in the velotransit lane?

    Why am i even posting in this macabe thread? Mr. HEAD, he even bumped his own 'bike lane death' thread in march with a 'bike lane accident' to keep his spiel alive, his hype about vague 'notions', his illusory armchair observations. Downright macabre.
    He likes to talk about of center deaths but never about those who were in the center of the lane who were killed. When these incidents are broght to his attention he ignores them and does not comment. I suspect though he will comment in reply to this and ask for a link showing him one of these posts he ignored and once posted he will ignore the reply and go on about the bike lane or off centerdeaths.

    See heres the thing vc does infact work some what. Mostly though it simply gets those border line drivers who may or may not buzz you to pass you with more distance. And if you happen to see some one passing you to closely and are in the center of the lane you can move right to increase your distance from the car.

  18. #68
    Infamous Member chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Another bike lane death caused by yet another motorist drifting inadvertently into the bike lane:

    sensationalism?

    Same fatality, different thread:

    Cellphone blamed

    Ambulance chaser.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  19. #69
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
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    VC and anti-bike lane BS are not one and the same despite the agenda of some folks.

    And again, if cyclists usually ride on the right margins of the road, isn't that where they are usually going to be when a motorist kills them? You don't go to the hardware store to pick up a loaf of bread and you don't stay in your own lane to kill cyclists traveling in other lanes.
    ~Diane
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  20. #70
    Banned Bikepacker67's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    And that goes for BL stripes - it facilitiates faster passing of cyclists by motorists
    Ding! Ding! Ding!

    The BL proponents seem to be clueless to this fact.

  21. #71
    hill hater nova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikepacker67
    Ding! Ding! Ding!

    The BL proponents seem to be clueless to this fact.
    Question what is the problem of motorists being able to pass faster easyer and more saftly when a cyclist is in the bike lane?

    Its no diffrent than if im holding the lane on a road with a right turn lane + left turn pluss strait lane and a motoroist passes me while im doing 12 mph up the hill and hes making a left turn while im going strait and hes doing the speed limit. Did he pass me faster sure he did did he have to move out of his lane to do so or did i need to make room for him to pass? The answer is no. So same deal im in bike lanee car on my left doing speed limit im doing 12 to 15 mph hes doing speed limit of 25 or 30 and passes me. I ee no diffrence.

    Diffrent case im in my lane going strait car behind me and in the left turn only lane hes doing the speed limit and dialing his cell phone or even useing a hands free one and not paying atention to the lane (or maybe he drops the fire off his cig in to his lap and greaches down to brush it off take your pick) he drifts over in to the strait lane and hits me.

    Dont say it doesnt happen simply put is has to have happened dozens of times. I have seen cars get smashed in this very same condition. Simply put your not going to find many deaths talking about cyclists who were riding in a vc manner because its not news worthy to include that bit. It is news worthy to report the deaths from car v bike collisions. Regardless of where the cyclist was when he was killed.

    Simply put if the cyclists dies he cant say i was following vc practices when i was killed and theres realy no way to prove the cyclist was riding vc or not riding vc.

    This is one more post that helmet head will choose to ignore as it makes points that he does not want to admit to or even acknowlage. Sorry hh but you have soe isues. You do not want to accept the fact that vc is not the single solution to being safe on a bike. You wont even acknowlage posts that point out the flaws in your logic.

    Cyclist are killed daily riding in many 100s of difrent ways wrong way far right edge bike lanes mups pulling out of their drive way riding on side wallks riding as pedestrians doing pedesrian turns and yes riding vc as well.

    I will ride in what ever way protects me the most over all. If theres a nice clean bike lane with out cars parked in it ill ride it if there a 3 foot wide shoulder that may as well have bike lane written in it ill ride there when safe to do so. IF vc will keep me safe then ill use it as well.

  22. #72
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
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    BL proponents don't have a problem with traffic passing them quickly. When each is in his own lane, fast passing is the intended outcome.
    ~Diane
    Recumbents: Lightning Thunderbolt, '06 Catrike Pocket. Upright: Trek Mountain Bike.
    8.5 mile commute. I like bike lanes.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwhord
    Thread killer...

    Beer Biscuits

    One 12 oz Beer
    3 cups Biscuit Mix
    2 tbs Sugar
    *** Mix all ingredients and cut and bake @ 375F till brown.

    Yield: 6 Biscuits
    are those actually any good? I bet mixing a small handful of grated cheddar cheese in there would be pretty good, or maybe some chopped green onions.

    Maybe even both!

  24. #74
    Banned Bikepacker67's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes
    BL proponents don't have a problem with traffic passing them quickly. When each is in his own lane
    That's the problem. Many motorists treat BL's just like they do breakdown lanes - drifting in and out at will.
    BL's (to me anyway) give a false sense of security for the cyclists; make for dangerous left turns; and further reinforces the motorists idea that we aren't REALLY legal vehicles and must STAY in our "designated" area.

  25. #75
    Sumanitu taka owaci LittleBigMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclaholic
    A very common car-car collision is the 'rear ender' (according to my friend who owns two panel shops it's the most common one they see) so if drivers don't see another car in front of them what chance do we have of being seen on a bike?
    I always thought that was from tailgating, which I get all the time driving, but rarely on my bike. Cars following each other at speeds to fast to stop in distances too short.
    No worries

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