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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrPete
    Absolutely not, but I do believe they're safer.

    And I agree on your criteria to allow an individual to ride a certain way. I totally disagree with you, though, that all you need is riding experience to recommend a certain behavior to people. If that were the case, then experienced cyclists who have never worn a helmet would be authorities on bike helmet use.
    Not sure what I said that made you think that. I did say, "Someone can have years of experience riding with traffic and still act extremely foolishly while riding in traffic." People who ride against traffic would fit into this category (assuming they've stuck around long enough to get years of experience doing it).


    Quote Originally Posted by DrPete
    Even if there is truth to the idea that cyclists are more visible in the traffic lane than on the shoulder, HH's approach is so fervently pro-VC that a newbie who stumbles on this forum and reads the unopposed preaching of HH may be tempted to head right out into traffic and subject themselves to other, much more common, ways to get killed on their bikes.

    Another factor that makes VC inadequate for a new cyclist is the implied assumption that a new cyclist won't be subject to the same cognitive lapses as the motorists, if not worse. Talk about distraction--here we have a new cyclist trying to figure out how to pedal, shift, drink, etc., all while processing the vehicles around them. How realistic is that?
    Again, that's why you would ease into something such a cycling in traffic. I won't say that no one is dumb enough to try and learn how to simply pedal a bike in heavy traffic, but I really hope no one is that stupid. If they can use a computer to find Bikeforums, then I think it's relatively safe to say they are not that dumb.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrPete
    I'm not even necessarily disagreeing with VC as a practice. However, the experience of the rider, local laws, local driver attitudes toward cyclists, quality of roads, shoulders, bike lanes, and bike paths, and other factors all come into consideration. Certainly enough variables to keep any reasonable individual from making a blanket recommendation on the subject.

    And finally, the delivery method. These are pure scare tactics. What is reported in the news about a collision with a cyclist may or may not be complete or even true, and HH uses these events to push his own agenda, even to the point of sounding on several occasions like he's blaming the dead cyclist for where he was riding. All if this with no consideration of what local practices and laws are, never mind the absolutely disgusting assumption that the cyclist would somehow be alive today if he/she had just done what HH said.
    I've cycled in quite a few different states and in very urban to very rural areas. Not much changes except the scenery. The only local law that might affect me as a cyclist is a mandatory bike lane/shoulder law but with the given exceptions, I feel I could pretty easily talk my way out of a ticket if ever cited for that. I'm not going to obey a law that goes against basic principles of traffic.

    It's your opinion that his method is scare tactics. HH might use an event to reinforce his method and if it happens to be a death that matches exactly the criteria for why he suggests the method, then can you really fault him? I think the people who preach stay out of the way are the one using scare tactics (go read the logging truck thread about how logging trucks can't stop).

    Quote Originally Posted by DrPete
    We live in an unfortunate world where someone can google a couple articles and come on an online forum and be easily misconstrued as actually knowing something or being some kind of authority. That's dangerous to a cyclist who may or may not fully understand VC, but who may think after reading the scare tactics of the self-proclaimed authority on the subject that all they need to do is ride in traffic lanes and they'll be safer.
    People all time preach that just "ride in a bike lane and you'll be safe. Stay out of traffic and you'll be safe." The ridiculousness of those statements is that if you are on the road, you are part of traffic. You canNOT just ride outside of it and think you are not part of it. At least with what HH is saying, you are forced to be part of traffic. If someone is not comfortable being part of traffic, then they shouldn't try his method, and they shouldn't be on a bike in the road either.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by joejack951
    I've cycled in quite a few different states and in very urban to very rural areas. Not much changes except the scenery. The only local law that might affect me as a cyclist is a mandatory bike lane/shoulder law but with the given exceptions, I feel I could pretty easily talk my way out of a ticket if ever cited for that. I'm not going to obey a law that goes against basic principles of traffic.
    You may want to set up a legal consulting services in Quebec, Canada, where it is illegal to ride outside the bike lane if one is provided on the road. You should be able to make a lot of money.

    But, French speaking is preferred.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrPete
    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    How many cyclists would have to die like this in shoulders and bike lanes due to inadvertent drift before you will start caring?
    So now, because I disagree with what you're arguing and how you're doing it, I don't care that cyclists get killed?
    Huh? It was a simple question, for which the answer is a number, or an estimate for a number.

    Now in this thread we've established that a dozen or so cyclists have been killed in shoulders and bike lanes due to inadvertent drift, and that number is obviously not big enough for you to care about this issue (or at least you care more about other issues, like cyclists in the center of the lane being run over from behind).

    So I'm just wondering... what if it was 50 per year?
    100?
    500?

    How many? Or would it not even matter if the only way cyclists were killed was like this?

    Seriously, imagine ten cyclists in your immediate area killed in one month by motorists who did not notice the cyclist up ahead in the shoulder or bike lane, chose to attend to a distraction, and, while they were doing so, inadvertently drifted into the shoulder and killed the cyclist. And, say, in all those cases the motorists argued compellingly that they did not notice the cyclist up ahead. I'm just curious how many (again, I'm asking for a number) have to die like that before you would start caring about this issue.

    What's the number?

  4. #154
    Senior Member hockeyteeth's Avatar
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    McNair Bostick - Gainesville, Florida

    http://www.alligator.org/pt2/060830death.php

  5. #155
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yuhoo
    You may want to set up a legal consulting services in Quebec, Canada, where it is illegal to ride outside the bike lane if one is provided on the road. You should be able to make a lot of money.

    But, French speaking is preferred.
    Can you cite the law?

    In California, we have such a law, but it has many exceptions. The DLLP method I advocate results in a cycling methodology that is legally consistent, at least with California law.

    Quote Originally Posted by CA VC 21208
    Permitted Movements from Bicycle Lanes

    21208. (a) Whenever a bicycle lane has been established on a roadway pursuant to Section 21207, any person operating a bicycle upon the roadway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at that time shall ride within the bicycle lane, except that the person may move out of the lane under any of the following situations:

    (1) When overtaking and passing another bicycle, vehicle, or pedestrian within the lane or about to enter the lane if the overtaking and passing cannot be done safely within the lane.

    (2) When preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.

    (3) When reasonably necessary to leave the bicycle lane to avoid debris or other hazardous conditions.

    (4) When approaching a place where a right turn is authorized.

    (b) No person operating a bicycle shall leave a bicycle lane until the movement can be made with reasonable safety and then only after giving an appropriate signal in the manner provided in Chapter 6 (commencing with Section 22100) in the event that any vehicle may be affected by the movement.
    http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21208.htm

    In particular, 21208 does not apply when faster same-direction traffic is not present, which is when I'm not in the bike lane. As I see them approach in my mirror, and after I am much more likely to have their attention, but before they've reached me, I move aside into the bike lane. In order to reduce the likelihood of the kind of inadvertent drift crash that this thread is about.
    Last edited by Helmet Head; 09-20-06 at 01:08 PM.

  6. #156
    Sumanitu taka owaci LittleBigMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    How many cyclists would have to die like this in shoulders and bike lanes due to inadvertent drift before you will start caring?
    Serge, Dr. Pete's position is that he believes cyclist deaths occur more frequently in main travel lanes than in bike lanes. I didn't read into any of his comments that he didn't care.
    No worries

  7. #157
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    Sorry, I meant start caring about the issue of inadvertent drift into shoulders and bike lanes.

  8. #158
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    Two more.

    +++++++++++++++++
    The Washington County district attorney's office announced Tuesday that a grand jury declined to indict Patricia Louise Suhrbier, 58, of Hillsboro in the May 29 deaths of Sheryl and Darrel McDaniel. The longtime cyclists, both wearing helmets and bright yellow jerseys, were struck while riding on the shoulder of Oregon 47 south of Forest Grove.
    ...
    Police reports say Sheryl McDaniel, 61, was riding slightly behind and to the left of her husband, Darrel McDaniel, 65, northbound on the paved shoulder of Oregon 47 just north of Southwest Anderson Road. About 11:45 a.m. on a sunny day, Suhrbier's 2002 Saab, also northbound on the two-lane road, drifted 21 inches over the fog line and hit the two Hillsboro cyclists.

    Suhrbier told police she did not know why she went off the highway.

    Two months of investigation by the county's Crash Analysis Reconstruction Team determined that Suhrbier was going about 40 mph in a 55-mph zone, did not have a cell phone in her car and was not impaired by alcohol or drugs. She had no criminal history and had never received a traffic ticket.

    "It appears to be a matter of momentary inattention," Quinn said.

    ++++++++++++++++++++
    Prosecutors said the case involving the Aug. 5 death of bicyclist Michael J. Wilberding, 58, of Tigard was more clearcut and will not be presented to a grand jury. Wilberding, who was in a bike lane and wearing a helmet, died four days after being hit by a car driven by Aaron M. Hessel, 25, of Beaverton.
    ...
    Janelle Factora Wipper, deputy district attorney, said Tuesday that she decided against taking Hessel's case to a grand jury because the facts showed no criminal liability and the victim's family did not want the driver charged.

    According to police reports, Hessel was traveling at a crawl and appropriately signaled his left turn off westbound Southwest Fifth Street onto Washington Avenue at 6:22 p.m. on Aug. 1. He was not impaired by alcohol or drugs -- but said he was blinded by the sun and didn't see Wilberding eastbound on Fifth.

    "I'm not excusing him for not seeing the bicyclist, but in our society we are trained to look for other cars," said Officer Mark Hyde, spokesman for the Beaverton Police Department. "It would have been harder for him to explain not seeing a car than not seeing a bicyclist."
    ++++++++++++++++++++

    No criminal charges for Oregon drivers who killed 3 cyclists

  9. #159
    Dirt-riding heretic DrPete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Huh? It was a simple question, for which the answer is a number, or an estimate for a number.

    Now in this thread we've established that a dozen or so cyclists have been killed in shoulders and bike lanes due to inadvertent drift, and that number is obviously not big enough for you to care about this issue (or at least you care more about other issues, like cyclists in the center of the lane being run over from behind).

    So I'm just wondering... what if it was 50 per year?
    100?
    500?

    How many? Or would it not even matter if the only way cyclists were killed was like this?

    Seriously, imagine ten cyclists in your immediate area killed in one month by motorists who did not notice the cyclist up ahead in the shoulder or bike lane, chose to attend to a distraction, and, while they were doing so, inadvertently drifted into the shoulder and killed the cyclist. And, say, in all those cases the motorists argued compellingly that they did not notice the cyclist up ahead. I'm just curious how many (again, I'm asking for a number) have to die like that before you would start caring about this issue.

    What's the number?
    Your question is based on the assumption that I don't care about the issue. You've clearly deluded yourself into thinking that because you have a theory that you care about the issue, and that by disagreeing with you I don't. It's insulting, condescending, and a complete fabrication, but I don't know why I would expect anything else from you.
    "Unless he was racing there was no way he could match my speed."

  10. #160
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    Quebe

    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Can you cite the law?

    Here is the link (in Enlish):

    http://www.mtq.gouv.qc.ca/en/publica...o_mai04_en.pdf

    The fine is $35.

    Relevent Quebec Highway Safety Code:

    Sec 492. Where the public highway includes a cycle lane, persons riding a bicycle other than a power-assisted bicycle must use the cycle lane.

    Ref: http://www2.publicationsduquebec.gou...2/C24_2_A.html

    So if you came to visit Quebec, bring lots of money if you want to ignore bike lanes - speaking no French or do not understand a traffic ticket written in French is not an excuse when dealing with Quebec courts. Mercy buckup.

    Many juridictions such as New South Wales in Australia have similar legislations.

  11. #161
    Banned. galen_52657's Avatar
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    It's $15-30 for not riding in the roadway to the far right! They would make a mint off of me...

  12. #162
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    Ok, then, Dr Pete, what do you suggest cyclists do to deal with the problem of inadvertent by same-direction traffic into shoulders and bike lanes?

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Ok, then, Dr Pete, what do you suggest cyclists do to deal with the problem of inadvertent by same-direction traffic into shoulders and bike lanes?
    It's already being done on shoulders - depressions built into the paving that make a lot of noise and shake the car when driven over. These should be positioned left of the right hand outside lane or bike lane marking (to date, I have only seen them in the actual shoulder paving - right of the white line) to wake up the driver before they enter the shoulder or bike lane.

  14. #164
    Dirt-riding heretic DrPete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Ok, then, Dr Pete, what do you suggest cyclists do to deal with the problem of inadvertent by same-direction traffic into shoulders and bike lanes?


    Its sophisticated auto-sensing technology allows it to grab the attention of anyone behind you no matter WHERE you are on the road.

    If you're in a bike lane, the motorist will see you.

    If you're in the traffic lane, the motorist will see you.

    If you're on the shoulder, well, you get the idea.
    Last edited by DrPete; 09-21-06 at 03:39 PM.
    "Unless he was racing there was no way he could match my speed."

  15. #165
    Infamous Member chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Ok, then, Dr Pete, what do you suggest cyclists do to deal with the problem of inadvertent by same-direction traffic into shoulders and bike lanes?
    Well wacky unproven theories by self-proclaimed expert club riders isn't going to help anyone...how about the tried and true method of PAYING ATTENTION TO WHAT IS GOING ON AROUND YOU? We can't control what other users of the road do, but if we are alert and paying attention, we can avoid becoming victims of their stupidity, inattentiveness and impatience 99% of the time - the other 1% 'the perfect storm' is out of our control and must be left to faith.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  16. #166
    Senior Member mechBgon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrPete


    Its sophisticated auto-sensing technology allows it to grab the attention of anyone behind you no matter WHERE you are on the road.
    Hehe!

    FYI, the Planet Bike SuperFlash is right up there with the NiteRider in my testing (see this thread for pics and video comparison), and is a full stand-alone blinkie (no wires, lightweight and sleek). It features similar auto-sensing technology, too!

    No reports yet on whether these work in Fantasy, however. Humans from Fantasy are resistant to technology, probably because it very seldom rains, snows or gets dark there. In other locales, such as Reality, the reports from Bekologist, and from a stranger who overtook me with my own SuperFlash, indicate that the auto-sensing technology makes cyclists very conspicuous from a rear view, even from long ranges in broad daylight, regardless of their precise lane position.


    the SuperFlash is a nice fit on a classy road bike

  17. #167
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    Husband and wife killed due to drift
    No criminal charges for Oregon drivers who killed 3 cyclists
    northbound on the two-lane road, drifted 21 inches over the fog line and hit the two Hillsboro cyclists.

  18. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Order
    Cyclist Killed, Driver Arrested

    Bicyclist struck, killed on his 26th birthday

    10:04 AM PDT on Tuesday, October 3, 2006

    By TERESA BELL, kgw.com Staff

    MILWAUKIE, Ore. -- A bicyclist was struck and killed on his birthday, along Highway 99E, just south of Milwaukie late Monday night and the driver who hit him may have been drunk, police said.

    Oregon State Police said the crash happened around 9:30 p.m., on Highway 99E, also known as SE McLoughlin Blvd, between Oak Grove Blvd. and SE Silverleaf.

    Daniel Kimball Frank, of Milwaukie, was pronounced dead at the scene. He had just turned 26-years old. Police said it appeared that Frank was traveling northbound in the bike lane when he was hit.

    The driver of the car, Jennifer Ballew, 32, of Clackamas was not injured. She was later arrested on one count of manslaughter in the second degree and lodged in the Clackamas County Jail. Investigators said they suspect she may have been driving impaired, possibly from combining prescription medications and alcohol.

    The road re-opened around 3 a.m. and investigators were on scene until about 3:20 a.m.
    Another Portland Fatality

  19. #169
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Investigators said they suspect she may have been driving impaired, possibly from combining prescription medications and alcohol.
    This was possibly a drunk driver caused death... not a bike lane death... Ken Kifer's death proved you can do everything right and still be killed by a drunk driver from no where.

    This one does not belong in your "case file."

  20. #170
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    What is the matter with everyone today?

    So because the driver overlooked or ignored the cyclist up ahead in the bike lane due to being drunk, and then drifted into the bike lane, it's not a bike lane death? Hello?

    I don't know about you, but the main reason I'm trying to get the attention of drivers when I'm out there, is because a lot of them are drunk, drowsy, distracted or all of the above. And the last place you should be if you're trying to get the attention of drunk, drowsy and distracted drivers is in the bike lane, because they're the last ones who will pay attention to you in there.

  21. #171
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    What is the matter with everyone today?

    So because the driver overlooked or ignored the cyclist up ahead in the bike lane due to being drunk, and then drifted into the bike lane, it's not a bike lane death? Hello?

    I don't know about you, but the main reason I'm trying to get the attention of drivers when I'm out there, is because a lot of them are drunk, drowsy, distracted or all of the above. And the last place you should be if you're trying to get the attention of drunk, drowsy and distracted drivers is in the bike lane, because they're the last ones who will pay attention to you in there.
    Well we really don't know enough details... but it is possible that the driver was attracted by lights as drunk drivers tend to fixate... So this is NOT your classic BL death... Also there are too many other variables, such as whether the cyclist was even lit, how they were dressed, and if they were even going the right way.

    For all the data currently known, you can just as easily blame this on a phase of the moon.

  22. #172
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Was the cyclist in the bike lane when he was killed? YES
    Was he killed by a motorist who, apparently unintentionally (inadvertently) drifted into the bike lane? YES

    That makes it a bike lane death in this thead.

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    What if it was a meteorite instead of a drunk driver? What if it was lightning? Still the bike lane's fault?

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    HH, why is it that the inattentive drifting motorist always seems to drift right into a cyclist? I mean, there's a lot of road out there, and not so many cyclists, so one would assume that when an inattentive motorist drifts, they'd be more likely to drift into an empty bike lane. Now I know that happens too, but most cars hold their lane, and the number of collisions suggests that there's something more at work than random drifting meeting up with a wrong place, wrong time cyclist.

  25. #175
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Who said it was the bike lane's fault?

    I said it was a bike lane death.

    Whether the bike lane and the cyclist's choice to be riding in the bike lane at that point were contributory causes is what the debate is about.

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