Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > > >

Vehicular Cycling (VC) No other subject has polarized the A&S members like VC has. Here's a place to share, debate, and educate.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 10-05-06, 03:27 PM   #201
joejack951
Senior Member
 
joejack951's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Wilmington, DE
Bikes: 1984 Trek 660, 2003 Specialized Hardrock, 2004 LOOK KG386i (RIP), 2005 Iron Horse Warrior Expert, 2009 Pedal Force CX1, 2014 Islabikes CNOC 14 (son's)
Posts: 10,379
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 296 Post(s)
Note also that alcohol tends to reduce one's peripheral vision (the same vision required to be able to see at all a cyclist off to the side as they are being passed).
joejack951 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-06, 04:02 PM   #202
sbhikes
Dominatrikes
 
sbhikes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Still in Santa Barbara
Bikes: Catrike Pocket, Lightning Thunderbold recumbent, Trek 3000 MTB.
Posts: 4,920
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Nobody disagrees that alcohol is a problem.
sbhikes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-06, 04:09 PM   #203
Helmet Head
Banned.
Thread Starter
 
Helmet Head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Bikes:
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbhikes
Nobody disagrees that alcohol is a problem.
That's true Diane.

But at least one person here has disagreed with the contention that alcohol exacerbates the problem that DLLP diminishes: motorists not noticing cyclists who are riding outside of the space where most drivers pay most of their attention most of the time, and crashing into them.
Helmet Head is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-06, 04:21 PM   #204
Blue Order
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 7,282
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
That's true Diane.

But at least one person here has disagreed with the contention that alcohol exacerbates the problem that DLLP diminishes: motorists not noticing cyclists who are riding outside of the space where most drivers pay most of their attention most of the time, and crashing into them.
Which person would that be?
Blue Order is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-06, 04:25 PM   #205
Blue Order
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 7,282
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by John C. Ratliff
Why do cars always drift right; actually, they don't.
Actually, I meant why do they drift directly into (right into) a cyclist, rather than directionally into (right, into) a cyclist.
Blue Order is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-06, 04:32 PM   #206
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Posts: 24,975
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 904 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by John C. Ratliff
Why do cars always drift right; actually, they don't.
Actually they can drift any where depending on the condition of the suspension and tires.

However the reason a car may have a tendency to drift right is due to the crowning of the road... anything off of center, is downhill to the outside.
genec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-06, 04:43 PM   #207
Helmet Head
Banned.
Thread Starter
 
Helmet Head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Bikes:
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Order
Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
But at least one person here has disagreed with the contention that alcohol exacerbates the problem that DLLP diminishes: motorists not noticing cyclists who are riding outside of the space where most drivers pay most of their attention most of the time, and crashing into them.
Which person would that be?
That person would be Mr. Singing "the drunk driver is just as prone to 'inattentional blindness' (which, by the way, isn't a real term) as the sober driver" Sabre.
Helmet Head is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-06, 04:52 PM   #208
krazygluon
Mad scientist w/a wrench
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chucktown
Bikes: none working atm
Posts: 761
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I don't have a bike-lane death to report, rather I've got a bike-lane deathtrap to report...

Lexington Kentucky, the intersection of Leestown road (a lesser known artery heading northeast out of town) and New Circle Road (KY 4, a Freeway that runs around the city)

A bikelane has been recently painted here as part of a repaving of the road. Prior to the bikelane's designation, the shoulder of the outbound lane was more or less used as and considered an extension to the offramp for cars getting off New Circle Road, including a large number of UPS trucks who use the shoulder extensively to travel between the off-ramp and the UPS facility at the next light.

the bikelane was painted into the shoulder. quite literally, we have solid white lines on the left side of the bike lane, designating the line between the road lane and the bike lane, and dotted stripes on the right side, designating that the UPS trucks apparently have the freedom to cross into this bike lane at their discression.

Now these aren't just the little Brown Box-trucks you see around every day...no most of the travel in this lane is the GIANT 2-trailer interstate truck used to take packages between distribution centers.

This is death waiting to happen. I refuse to bike in this lane and would rather share the actual roadway with its 45mph speed limit.
krazygluon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-06, 04:57 PM   #209
noisebeam
Al
 
noisebeam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Posts: 14,114
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 437 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by krazygluon
I don't have a bike-lane death to report, rather I've got a bike-lane deathtrap to report...
If you have the patience, remove this report from this thread and put it in this thread instead:
Bike lane follies

Al
noisebeam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-06, 07:20 PM   #210
sbhikes
Dominatrikes
 
sbhikes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Still in Santa Barbara
Bikes: Catrike Pocket, Lightning Thunderbold recumbent, Trek 3000 MTB.
Posts: 4,920
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
So Serge thinks that DLLP will somehow negate part of the negative effects of drunk driving. Wow. There must be a diagnosis in the DSMIV for that.
sbhikes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-06, 07:30 PM   #211
The Human Car
-=Barry=-
 
The Human Car's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Baltimore, MD +/- ~100 miles
Bikes:
Posts: 4,077
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
The point is, a drunk driver is particularly likely to overlook a cyclist up ahead who is off to the side out of his path, and more likely to overlook such a cyclist than to overlook a cyclist up ahead in his intended path.
...
It's about likelihoods and improving odds, not absolutes.
My problem with this is I have seen drunks hit trees dead on with reflectors all over the place, miss tunnel openings, hit the car ahead of them that was stopped for a light and just plain unable to keep their vehicle between the lines. Add to that we have other substance abuses that affect people in a lot of different ways just makes this class of driver impossible to predict IMHO.

I have also witnessed what I interpret as drivers who appeared hindered in someway drive straight for a cyclist as if they were just looking at the cyclists totally unaware that where they were looking was also where they were driving.

I mention this because I see lots of possibilities; one is that an impaired person is likely to over look a cyclists off to the side or an impaired person is likely to overlook (or misjudge distance or whatever) of a cyclists right in front of them or an impaired person my be distracted by the cyclist and just head straight for them or their driving is so erratic that they’ll get the cyclists no matter where the cyclists is riding. I’m really not sure we can play odds here on which is more likely to happen.

Maybe DLLP might help in this situation in the same way that jumping up at the last minute if you are in a falling elevator might help as well.
__________________
Cycling Advocate
http://BaltimoreSpokes.org
. . . o
. . /L
=()>()
The Human Car is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-06, 07:36 PM   #212
Blue Order
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 7,282
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I predict that a mix of drunks and PEEK-A-BOO riders will result in the timely demise of PEEK-A-BOO, as its proponents' numbers are thinned...
Blue Order is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-06, 04:33 AM   #213
(51)
Perma-Clyde
 
(51)'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Suncoast, FL
Bikes: Trek Hybrid 7200
Posts: 931
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I got hit in the bike lane yesterday. My post is in the Clyde forum.
(51) is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-06, 07:53 AM   #214
sbhikes
Dominatrikes
 
sbhikes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Still in Santa Barbara
Bikes: Catrike Pocket, Lightning Thunderbold recumbent, Trek 3000 MTB.
Posts: 4,920
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by (51)
I got hit in the bike lane yesterday. My post is in the Clyde forum.
Are you dead? I think there's a survey somewhere in this forum. They're particularly interested in reports from those who have died.
sbhikes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-06, 09:02 AM   #215
noisebeam
Al
 
noisebeam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Posts: 14,114
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 437 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Human Car
My problem with this is I have seen drunks hit trees dead on with reflectors all over the place, miss tunnel openings, hit the car ahead of them that was stopped for a light and just plain unable to keep their vehicle between the lines.
Just curious, what do you do so you witness all these events and get involved in the followup analysis?
Al
noisebeam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-06, 10:36 AM   #216
CTAC
Senior Member
 
CTAC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 387
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 93 Post(s)
The OP speculates on a tragedy in the Woodside. Every death is a heartbreak, but it does not yet mean that everyone is going to die the same way.

Silicon Valley Bicycle Coalition collects reports and statistic in the area. It has a 'hazardous routes' page on their website. Most of these are freeway overpasses looking exacly as a favorite HH road - no BL, bicyclist has to ride with the traffic:
http://www.svbcbikes.org/hazardous_routes.php
I have two overpasses in my area with BLs on them, but they are not listed as hazards. Maybe because BLs do a good job separating the traffic (it's a college area with lots of bikes), or they did not list these so HH can continue speculating that BLs are bad.
CTAC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-06, 11:14 AM   #217
CTAC
Senior Member
 
CTAC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 387
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 93 Post(s)
An illustration to the previous post showing the difference between a hazardous freeway overpass and a safe one.
Attached Images
File Type: bmp hazard.bmp (19.6 KB, 21 views)
File Type: bmp safe.bmp (19.6 KB, 18 views)
CTAC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-06, 11:22 AM   #218
noisebeam
Al
 
noisebeam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Posts: 14,114
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 437 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTAC
An illustration to the previous post showing the difference between a hazardous freeway overpass and a safe one.
I assume in the safe version the BL has an overpass over the exit? Is that what you mean by 'freeway over pass' ?
Al
noisebeam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-06, 11:38 AM   #219
Helmet Head
Banned.
Thread Starter
 
Helmet Head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Bikes:
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTAC
Silicon Valley Bicycle Coalition collects reports and statistic in the area. It has a 'hazardous routes' page on their website. Most of these are freeway overpasses looking exacly as a favorite HH road - no BL, bicyclist has to ride with the traffic:
http://www.svbcbikes.org/hazardous_routes.php
This is misleading. It implies that the reports and statistics collected by the SVBC determine which routes are hazardous. That is not the case. What is "hazardous" according to the SVBC is determined by subjective opinion based on ridiculous claims such as, "Hazard : Bicyclists must weave with high speed traffic."

In my opinion, anyone who characterizes a traffic situation where bicyclists simply share the road with motor vehicle drivers as "bicyclists must weave with high speed traffic" has no business making such assessments.

Note that there is no correlation between how "hazardous" these routes are judged to be and how many car-bike collisions actually occur on them compared to the alternative routes.

By the way, bike lanes have nothing to do with this. If the path followed by cyclists must be crossed by motor traffic, bike lanes can't help, unless there is a separate overpass for them.
Helmet Head is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-06, 11:45 AM   #220
galen_52657
Banned.
 
galen_52657's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Towson, MD
Bikes: 2001 Look KG 241, 1989 Specialized Stump Jumper Comp, 1986 Gatane Performanc
Posts: 4,020
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTAC
An illustration to the previous post showing the difference between a hazardous freeway overpass and a safe one.
so which one is supposed to be safer????

Having a bike lane cut across an off-ramp at an angle is anything but safe. It's asking to get right-hooked.
galen_52657 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-06, 11:47 AM   #221
CTAC
Senior Member
 
CTAC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 387
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 93 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by noisebeam
I assume in the safe version the BL has an overpass over the exit? Is that what you mean by 'freeway over pass' ?
Al
Overpass mean a bridge over a freeway. Normally there is the right lane exits to merge with the freeway and bicyclist has to merge into the lane going straight.

Hazardous routes listed on the SV Bikes Coalition website are mostly places where road crosses freeway with no BL markings. Same road configurations with BLs are missing there. I'd speculate that signage makes such routes safer.
CTAC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-06, 11:48 AM   #222
noisebeam
Al
 
noisebeam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Posts: 14,114
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 437 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by galen_52657
so which one is supposed to be safer????

Having a bike lane cut across an off-ramp at an angle is anything but safe. It's asking to get right-hooked.
I think that the overpass is a BL over the off ramp. Otherwise it it a very dangerous design as you point out. Only a cyclist wishing to get hit would make a last minute merge across an exit into the thru lane. This is why modern BL designs (still inadeqately) put the BL to the left of right exits.
Al
noisebeam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-06, 11:54 AM   #223
CTAC
Senior Member
 
CTAC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 387
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 93 Post(s)
To clarify how it is done: Bicycle lane crosses right traffic lane about 200 yards before the latter turns right. After that BL continues between traffic lanes.
CTAC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-06, 11:59 AM   #224
galen_52657
Banned.
 
galen_52657's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Towson, MD
Bikes: 2001 Look KG 241, 1989 Specialized Stump Jumper Comp, 1986 Gatane Performanc
Posts: 4,020
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CTAC
To clarify how it is done: Bicycle lane crosses right traffic lane about 200 yards before the latter turns right. After that BL continues between traffic lanes.
But that's not what the little picture shows....
galen_52657 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-06, 12:01 PM   #225
CTAC
Senior Member
 
CTAC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 387
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 93 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by galen_52657
But that's not what the little picture shows....
You are right, the picture is only one inch size.
CTAC is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:10 PM.