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  1. #701
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    Quote Originally Posted by dewaday
    +1 and much more calmly stated then it deserved.
    Above the statement provided by the quoting system, this author claimed that this was a forum not a lecture hall, or something like that.

    Well, even in a forum, there are likely to be some people with more knowledge than other people. The discussion won't produce useful results unless such levels of knowledge are recognizes.

  2. #702
    Senior Member bbunk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester
    Above the statement provided by the quoting system, this author claimed that this was a forum not a lecture hall, or something like that.

    Well, even in a forum, there are likely to be some people with more knowledge than other people. The discussion won't produce useful results unless such levels of knowledge are recognizes.
    By everyone that is posting
    Quote Originally Posted by closetbiker
    It's pretty clear. Ride your bike, you'll be just fine.

  3. #703
    Infamous Member chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester
    This refers to one illuminating comment by chipcom:

    "So these studies and observations were of cyclists who did not have driver's licenses? I guess this might apply in your narrow scope if you assume that all urban transportational cyclists are car free and have never obtained a license to drive, otherwise all it proves is that these populations suck as both drivers and cyclists...hardly headlines. Perhaps we should be a bit more stringent in our driver training, since the vast majority of our population drives, rather than cycles FOR TRANSPORTATION and the competence of both drivers, and thus cyclists, might improve, since I imagine most cyclists are also drivers...unless the assumption I stated above is actually valid."

    My observations were of all the cyclists during commuting hours of normal business days. I had no means of knowing whether or not they had motor-vehicle driving licenses, but it is reasonable to assume, on the basis of population averages, that nearly all did.

    When I give a lecture or a class on traffic cycling to adults, I often start by asking the participants "How many of you have driving licenses?" In most cases all raise hands. So I remark, "I don't know why you're here. You know almost all that you need to know." After a pause, I add, "The problem is that you don't recognize that traffic skills apply to all drivers, whether they are in a car, on a motorcycle, or on a pedal cycle. American society has taught you that bicycle traffic skills are something exotic, practicable only for those with exceptional abilities. You will learn otherwise."
    I think the your use of "pass the standard driving examination" led me down the wrong path of concern. Indeed, ILTB's assertions are more troubling. Quite frankly, comparing people of who don't even know they are taking a test to those who have been schooled on the very subjects the test covers and know they are taking a test, can only provide results that are dubious at best, just as my conclusion concerning my civil service exam were.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  4. #704
    Senior Member kalliergo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
    Typical Forester reinterpretation/transformation of valid criticism into his own Straw man arguments. Read 'em and take notes on the technique. It never changes.
    Could you share with us the basis for your disagreement with Forester? I mean at a fundamental level, aside from issues of style, personal animosity, etc.

    In terms as simple as possible, how do you believe he is wrong in his assessment of cyclists and their skills; their attitudes toward learning; the value and place in society of cycling education; and the benefits vs. the dangers and negative impacts of bikeways?

  5. #705
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester
    Above the statement provided by the quoting system, this author claimed that this was a forum not a lecture hall, or something like that.

    Well, even in a forum, there are likely to be some people with more knowledge than other people. The discussion won't produce useful results unless such levels of knowledge are recognizes.
    So you would turn a forum into a static lecture, with those of self appointed knowledge as the high priests of discussion?

  6. #706
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    Originally Posted by John Forester
    ILTB's argument is that the general cycling population knows how to ride safely but chooses to ride dangerously. In other words, ILTB's objections are based on the premise that the general cycling population is insane rather than unskilled.

    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
    Typical Forester reinterpretation/transformation of valid criticism into his own Straw man arguments. Read 'em and take notes on the technique. It never changes.
    This is not a straw man argument. It is the result of logical analysis of ILTB's own statements. It is not my fault that logical analysis of ILTB's own arguments lead to conclusions that he does not like to be disclosed.

    One aspect of my opinion is not well received among some here, but I repeat it. Typical bicycle advocacy is such a complex of anti-motoring emotions driving a pro-motoring, anti-cyclist program that the illogicality keeps coming through.

  7. #707
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester
    My observations were of all the cyclists during commuting hours of normal business days. I had no means of knowing whether or not they had motor-vehicle driving licenses, but it is reasonable to assume, on the basis of population averages, that nearly all did.
    Since one needs to pass a standard driving examination to obtain a motor-vehicle driving license, I'm having trouble reconciling your comments quoted above with your comments quoted below.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester
    2: Data on cyclist behavior. Measured observations of the behavior of the cycling populations of Davis, Palo Alto, Berkeley, & Sunnyvale demonstrate that these populations are nowhere near able to pass the standard driving examination.

  8. #708
    Senior Member Bruce Rosar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester
    ... "The problem is that you don't recognize that traffic skills apply to all drivers, whether they are in a car, on a motorcycle, or on a pedal cycle. American society has taught you that bicycle traffic skills are something exotic, practicable only for those with exceptional abilities. You will learn otherwise."
    +1

  9. #709
    Senior Member Speedo's Avatar
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    Thank you for responding.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester
    There are two kinds of evidence for this statement.

    The first is the fact that very few people choose to take courses in traffic-cycling skills. Even when I was first teaching that subject, during the end of the bike boom, I had to spice up the course with other aspects that cyclists wanted to learn. Of course, once I got them into training in vehicular cycling, which occurred in every session, they found that they enjoyed learning traffic-cycling skills. Even so, I didn't tell them what was ahead, for that caused several to miss that session. The evidence of the failure of subsequent versions of the program says a lot, both about the few who want it, and the competence of those who operated it.
    Well, with respect, this evidence just says that people don't want to take classes. Not that they aren't interested.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester
    The second kind of evidence is that from bicycle advocates, whose program is based on the principle that those who might cycle want to be able to do it without learning traffic-cycling skills. I disagree with their program, but I don't disagree with their assessment of the public. However, I strongly disagree with their encouragement for unskilled cycling, which necessarily is linked with discouragement of skilled cycling. I have seen far too much of that combination over the years, and I consider this to be both disadvantageous and immoral.
    This just says that new riders who haven't yet acquired skills may be more comfortable on some kind of off street path. It doesn't preclude an interest in learning. Not having skills today doesn't mean that one can't acquire them in the future. A class can help run up the learning curve faster, but it's not required.

    Speedo.

  10. #710
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester
    Originally Posted by John Forester
    ILTB's argument is that the general cycling population knows how to ride safely but chooses to ride dangerously. In other words, ILTB's objections are based on the premise that the general cycling population is insane rather than unskilled.



    This is not a straw man argument. It is the result of logical analysis of ILTB's own statements. It is not my fault that logical analysis of ILTB's own arguments lead to conclusions that he does not like to be disclosed.

    One aspect of my opinion is not well received among some here, but I repeat it. Typical bicycle advocacy is such a complex of anti-motoring emotions driving a pro-motoring, anti-cyclist program that the illogicality keeps coming through.
    Logical Analysis?! It gets deeper and deeper.

  11. #711
    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    Well, even in a forum, there are likely to be some people with more knowledge than other people. The discussion won't produce useful results unless such levels of knowledge are recognizes.
    "I used to think that the brain was the most fascinating part of the body, then I realized, look what's telling you that"
    I am a mutated sig Virus. Please put me in your sig so that I can continue to replicate and mutate, blah!.

  12. #712
    Infamous Member chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalliergo
    Could you share with us the basis for your disagreement with Forester? I mean at a fundamental level, aside from issues of style, personal animosity, etc.

    In terms as simple as possible, how do you believe he is wrong in his assessment of cyclists and their skills;
    I thought this was pretty simple:

    Quote Originally Posted by ILTB
    Forester followed surreptitiously behind allegedly random cyclists selected by him and he measured/graded their performance against his own Forester Cycling Proficiency test. That is the so-called "standard driving examination" to which he refers. The "tested" cyclists had no idea they were being graded or evaluated for conformance with anything and had no specific reason to perform for him. Details are at: http://www.johnforester.com/Articles...s/bikelane.htm

    Sidebar:
    Forester uses those scores in comparison with his cycling students to show the value of his teaching methods. Those students were specifically taught to pass that specific test and were well aware when they were being tested. In fact the students were well aware that passing that specific test was required to pass the voluntary course. The correlation of scores on the Forester Cycling Proficiency Test with driving or cycling safety performance is undocumented for any population of cyclists.

    Forester is welcome to correct my assessment of this "driving test" or the character of his "measured observations" or provide more detail.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  13. #713
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalliergo
    Actually, Forester quotes extensively from the statements and arguments quoted here, which he then responds to quite succinctly. Nothing "one sided" about it.
    the fallacy comes in when JF condemns his opposition for their lack of proof, while providing none of his own. (i am going over this again with a specific purpose in mind -- will elab ltr)

  14. #714
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalliergo
    Could you share with us the basis for your disagreement with Forester? I mean at a fundamental level, aside from issues of style, personal animosity, etc.
    Too bad that one week after joining this forum you were boasting how you chose to ignore what I've been posting. The choice is now yours. If you want to know, use the search function; or just continue to ignore what you don't want to know.

  15. #715
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    John forester, I'm calling you out. Where is your proof? I am asking you to put up or shut up, because personally I am tired of hearing about your dogma & diatribe. I also think you have no proof, in which case you should put the shovel down & stop digging the hole you're in. Or is all of this crap based on your personal experienc & emotions that would not apply to anywhere else? Oh & please stop comparing cycling in the U.S. to Europe. That is just plain dumb. It is not the same.

  16. #716
    Senior Member rando's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester
    I thought that all of the emphasized comments at the top of rando's posting were written by him, in addition to the bit that the quote system has provided.

    The author, whomever he is, has written several rather unpleasantly phrased skeptical criticisms. Rather than demonstrating what he intended, they demonstrate what is a very common situation in bicycle advocacy. That is, the author not only knows little about the subject of bicycle transportation, but possesses very strong opinions that are not based on knowledge. I won't answer more.
    what, because I disagreed with your assertions/theories/mythologies and denied they were true, it means I know little about the subject and don't deserve an answer? OK, I guess that's that.
    "Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen

    Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me

  17. #717
    Infamous Member chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by N_C
    John forester, I'm calling you out. Where is your proof? I am asking you to put up or shut up, because personally I am tired of hearing about your dogma & diatribe. I also think you have no proof, in which case you should put the shovel down & stop digging the hole you're in. Or is all of this crap based on your personal experienc & emotions that would not apply to anywhere else? Oh & please stop comparing cycling in the U.S. to Europe. That is just plain dumb. It is not the same.
    N_C, what has gotten into you? You pretty much renounced your helmet crusade, you've been posting in Foo with attempted humor and running around in here like...well....seriously, dude, have you been hitting the sauce? I'm worried about you...and worried that I might have broken one of my favorite toys.

    Seriously, are you ok? Stuff like the above is gonna get you banned.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  18. #718
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    Quote Originally Posted by forgetmeknot
    Since one needs to pass a standard driving examination to obtain a motor-vehicle driving license, I'm having trouble reconciling your comments quoted above with your comments quoted below.
    Well, of course I am referring to their ability when riding a bicycle.

  19. #719
    Non-Custom Member zeytoun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom
    Quote Originally Posted by N_C
    John forester, I'm calling you out. Where is your proof? I am asking you to put up or shut up, because personally I am tired of hearing about your dogma & diatribe. I also think you have no proof, in which case you should put the shovel down & stop digging the hole you're in. Or is all of this crap based on your personal experienc & emotions that would not apply to anywhere else? Oh & please stop comparing cycling in the U.S. to Europe. That is just plain dumb. It is not the same.
    N_C, what has gotten into you? You pretty much renounced your helmet crusade, you've been posting in Foo with attempted humor and running around in here like...well....seriously, dude, have you been hitting the sauce? I'm worried about you...and worried that I might have broken one of my favorite toys.

    Seriously, are you ok? Stuff like the above is gonna get you banned.

    Deep breaths, N_C... play nice....
    I am a mutated sig Virus. Please put me in your sig so that I can continue to replicate and mutate, blah!.

  20. #720
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom
    N_C, what has gotten into you? You pretty much renounced your helmet crusade, you've been posting in Foo with attempted humor and running around in here like...well....seriously, dude, have you been hitting the sauce? I'm worried about you...and worried that I might have broken one of my favorite toys.

    Seriously, are you ok? Stuff like the above is gonna get you banned.
    Seems to me N_C is coming out into the light! Good for N_C. The proof of hisgood intentions will be when he cheers on the mighty Lions when they take on the Hawkeyes this fall.

    But don't get your self banned or moderated calling out John Forester, You'll only get the same results as if you used your Air Zound on your keyboard.

  21. #721
    Prefers Cicero cooker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester
    Above the statement provided by the quoting system, this author claimed that this was a forum not a lecture hall, or something like that.

    Well, even in a forum, there are likely to be some people with more knowledge than other people. The discussion won't produce useful results unless such levels of knowledge are recognizes.
    You were indirectly quoting me, but I in turn was responding to alanbikehouston's earler suggestion that we simply listen passively to what you say, and ask for clarification where we need it, but not challenge you.

    I don't see that as how a public forum (or a University classroom, for that matter) should work - do you? Most experts welcome criticism and even modify their views if they encounter a good argument, which could come out of left field. Sure, nobody else has your credentials, but many of us have years of experience on the bike and exposure both to your views and that of other authorities, and some of that experience may cause us to question some of your teachings. Why shouldn't we avail ourselves of your presence to raise those issues with you?

  22. #722
    N_C
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom
    N_C, what has gotten into you? You pretty much renounced your helmet crusade, you've been posting in Foo with attempted humor and running around in here like...well....seriously, dude, have you been hitting the sauce? I'm worried about you...and worried that I might have broken one of my favorite toys.

    Seriously, are you ok? Stuff like the above is gonna get you banned.
    You guys are rubbing off on me, I guess. I'm also tired of trhis crap JF is posting. I mean enough is enough already. Anytime anyone asks him a question he either evades it or spouts the crap over & over & over again.

    As far as my so called helmet crusade, well I am still advocating for helmet usage. Just using more tact & not calling people names for not wearing a helmet. I'm going about it differantly. In part because of what I have learned from here, you included.

    I doubt I'll get banned for asking JF to provide proof. Don't you think this is getting tiresome? I also get the feeling part of this is turned into a baiting session with JF. Obviously he took a huge bite, hook, line & sinker. I love how he claims not allowing people to post on his site is simply because it is for informational purposes. Ha! Yeah right! It is so no one will challenge him in his domain.

    At least on my blog, though I have control over what responses I allow to be published or not I still allow the responses to come to me & then I decide. There has only been one I closed & prevent any more responses on. Some of the responses I got were way, way far beyond what should have been said. I won't even disclose the language used, but it wasn't from someone here. JF does not allow the responses to go to him thus allowing him to make the decisions as to which ones he wants posted.

  23. #723
    Senior Member Bruce Rosar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeytoun
    "I used to think that the brain was the most fascinating part of the body, then I realized, look what's telling you that"
    Thanks for bring back fond memories of seeing Emo Philips on stage. I'm going to try and get tickets for his next booking here!

  24. #724
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
    Seems to me N_C is coming out into the light! Good for N_C. The proof of hisgood intentions will be when he cheers on the mighty Lions when they take on the Hawkeyes this fall.

    But don't get your self banned or moderated calling out John Forester, You'll only get the same results as if you used your Air Zound on your keyboard.
    Doin't count on it. GO HAWKEYES!!! Look at the bright side at least I don't root for Nebraska.

  25. #725
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by N_C
    Doin't count on it. GO HAWKEYES!!! Look at the bright side at least I don't root for Nebraska.
    That's true. But even Nebraska has been topped for firing a winning coach and calling him mediocre with a 9-3 record. Any Tide fans here?

    We can return to the regular programing after this short time out

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