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  1. #1
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Forester takes on BF Posters

    On his web site that is.
    http://johnforester.com/Articles/Soc...Advocacies.htm See paragraph 2 & 3.
    Nothing like a one sided debate, Forester style. What a guy!

  2. #2
    Senior Member kalliergo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
    On his web site that is.
    http://johnforester.com/Articles/Soc...Advocacies.htm See paragraph 2 & 3.
    Nothing like a one sided debate, Forester style. What a guy!
    Actually, Forester quotes extensively from the statements and arguments quoted here, which he then responds to quite succinctly. Nothing "one sided" about it.

  3. #3
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalliergo
    Actually, Forester quotes extensively from the statements and arguments quoted here, which he then responds to quite succinctly. Nothing "one sided" about it.
    Sorry, Jack. Forester does the same old, same old routine of repeating the quote, but reponding to his own interpretation of what the quote really means per Forester. This is an open Forum if he wished to respond, or have one of his tools like you or HH do it for him, the mike was open. Instead he posts just another of his one sided diatribes. Maybe you can suggest that he open up his web site for responses from those whom he criticizes and belittles.

    No surprise you are the first to respond to defend the Great One, you are tuned right in to the Master, ain't ya?

  4. #4
    Senior Member rando's Avatar
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    John-boy sure doesn't like ILTB.
    "Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen

    Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me

  5. #5
    Raising the Abyss celticfrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
    On his web site that is.
    http://johnforester.com/Articles/Soc...Advocacies.htm See paragraph 2 & 3.
    Nothing like a one sided debate, Forester style. What a guy!
    ha ha ha... he pwn3d you guys.
    "...in Las Vegas where -the electric bills are staggering -the decor hog wild -and the entertainment saccharine -what a golden age -what a time of right and reason -the consumer's king -and unhappiness is treason..."

  6. #6
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rando
    John-boy sure doesn't like ILTB.
    They have a long history.

    Make no mistake, ILTB's perspective about vehicular cycling is colored by very personal matters.

  7. #7
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rando
    John-boy sure doesn't like ILTB.
    The gored sacred cow is obnoxious ain't he!

    He doesn't like anyone to tip over his house of cards or to call a statistical charlatan, a statistical charlatan. And he has apoplectic fits when his sophomoric so-called risk analysis and tests are revealed for exactly what they are - biased fabrications and statistical crap.

  8. #8
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    .

    Make no mistake, ILTB's perspective about vehicular cycling is colored by very personal matters.
    Is that right? Who told you?

  9. #9
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
    The gored sacred cow is obnoxious ain't he!

    He doesn't like anyone to tip over his house of cards or to call a statistical charlatan, a statistical charlatan. And he has apoplectic fits when his sophomoric so-called risk analysis and tests are revealed for exactly what they are - biased fabrications and statistical crap.
    See, it's objective analysis. It's not a personal vendetta or anything like that.

    Is that right? Who told you?
    Like you don't make it blatantly obvious that you have a personal vendetta against John Forester?

  10. #10
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    I consider myself to be fairly well educated, having a post graduate degree and all, but I could barely understand half of that. I'm not necessarily knocking the man's ideas (i'm not sure I understand them yet), but as far as debating style and response to criticism, he talks in circles.

  11. #11
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    See, it's objective analysis. It's not a personal vendetta or anything like that.


    Like you don't make it blatantly obvious that you have a personal vendetta against John Forester?
    Sorry, that pig don't fly.

    Strictly the facts, Jack. It is YOU and the other Foresterites who believe that the facts and truth are a personal attack on your cherished beliefs.

  12. #12
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skanking biker
    I consider myself to be fairly well educated, having a post graduate degree and all, but I could barely understand half of that. I'm not necessarily knocking the man's ideas (i'm not sure I understand them yet), but as far as debating style and response to criticism, he talks in circles.
    It can be a lot of work to understand his writing sometimes.
    If you don't do the work, it might seem like he's talking in circles.
    But if you do the work, the objective analysis, usually you'll find he's on pretty solid ground.
    But because so few are willing to do that work, it's easy to criticize what he's saying.

  13. #13
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
    Sorry, that pig don't fly.

    Strictly the facts, Jack. It is YOU and the other Foresterites who believe that the facts and truth are a personal attack on your cherished beliefs.
    OMG! I really stumbled onto this one. It didn't occur to me that you would be in denial about having a personal grudge and vendetta against Forester. This is classic! Amazing.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    I saw that. I don't think I like being characterized as "anti-motorist." I also don't like the California centric viewpoint, that the environment was designed for cars only, and cyclists just have to deal. Not all places are as autocentric as California. And in many places where cycling for transportation has been encouraged, lo and behold, the number of cyclists on the streets goes up! How does J. Forester reconcile that amongst his theory that cycling will always be unpopular and basically without merit as a serious transportational option?

    Mr. Forester has thrown in his towel in resignation for cycling advocacy. I think he is getting old and pessimistic. He spoke at that convention, under the exact auspices that we feared: as a pro-motorist who happens to bike. According to his worldview, cycling will always be second best to the car, always fighting for space on the road and to be left alone against the encroaching auto-centric society. I've seen this sentiment in other emails he has posted on chainguard. I think he has come full circle and is not a cycling advocate anymore. He just wants to be left alone. He'll adapt to the changing and more auto-centric road environment (in California, at least) as long as he can, and all others can just f-ck themselves.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  15. #15
    Striving for Fredness deputyjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalliergo
    Actually, Forester quotes extensively from the statements and arguments quoted here, which he then responds to quite succinctly. Nothing "one sided" about it.
    How do you not see that quoting and responding on a static HTML page is not "one-sided"?

    Quite cowardly in my opinion. If he wishes to debate members of this forum he should do so from inside the forum instead of sending his "minions" here to do his bidding.

    Additionally, he may be infringing upon the rights of this forums owners and members by quoting them on another site without their consent.
    Monsignor: We must always fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil that we must fear the most, and that is the indifference of good men.
    Connor: I do believe the monsignor's finally got the point.
    Murphy: Aye.

    OttawaCountyDSA.com

  16. #16
    Senior Member kalliergo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ILTB
    Is that right? Who told you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Like you don't make it blatantly obvious that you have a personal vendetta against John Forester?
    Really, ILTB, the evidence of your personal animosity for Forester is miles, and years, long. Nobody who is familiar with, or becomes familiar with, even a bit of that history is likely to believe a denial from you.

    Again, ridicule, name-calling, bullying -- none of these are convincing arguments for anything and don't contribute to the discussion. If the operators of this forum were serious about the "Forum Guidelines," this sort of thing would be weeded out.

  17. #17
    JRA
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    Senior Member JRA's Avatar
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    That's hilarious! The great scientist in his own mind even got in a comment about the Cyclist Inferiority Phobia.

    John Forester's website is one of the funniest websites I've ever seen in my life - a true "Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science" classic.

    John Forester
    • What a scientist!
    • What a class act!


    Advocacy at its best.

    This thread will probably be:
    • very funny
    • very hostile
    • very long OR
    • shut down by the mods
    "It may even be that motoring is more healthful than not motoring; death rates were certainly higher in the pre-motoring age."- John Forester
    "Laws cannot be properly understood as if written in plain English..."- Forester defending obfuscation.
    "Motorist propaganda, continued for sixty years, is what has put cyclists on sidewalks." - Forester, sociologist in his own mind
    "'There are no rules of the road on MUPs.' -John Forester" - Helmet Head quoting 'The Great One'

  18. #18
    Banned. galen_52657's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by celticfrost
    ha ha ha... he pwn3d you guys.
    pwn3d and triple pwn3d you bikepath *******

  19. #19
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Actually, I saw his CG letter.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  20. #20
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRA
    Advocacy at its best.

    This thread will probably be:
    • very funny
    • very hostile
    • very long OR
    • shut down by the mods
    All of the above??? In the chainguard letter, he actually names bikeforums.net specifically. Apparently he's a lurker here. Wish he'd come out and post so we could talk with the guy...
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  21. #21
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by celticfrost
    ha ha ha... he pwn3d you guys.
    You think?


  22. #22
    Senior Member kalliergo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deputyjones
    How do you not see that quoting and responding on a static HTML page is not "one-sided"?
    I don't know "how" it is, but I don't see it that way at all. The statements were made in this public forum and he responded in a public way. His e-mail address is readily available, along with any number of other ways to contact him should someone wish to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by deputyjones
    Quite cowardly in my opinion. If he wishes to debate members of this forum he should do so from inside the forum instead of sending his "minions" here to do his bidding.
    Whatever qualities John Forester may exhibit, cowardliness is not, most assuredly, one of them.

    I'm getting really tired of this childish name-calling, DJ. I am, decidedly, not anyone's minion. If you knew me, as opposed to having simplistically categorized me, you would be in no doubt of that fact.

    What is it with the adolescent gang mentality that prevails here? Did you people all beat up kids who "dressed funny" in junior high? Did you feel proud of yourselves when you did?

    Quote Originally Posted by deputyjones
    Additionally, he may be infringing upon the rights of this forums owners and members by quoting them on another site without their consent.
    That's an interesting interesting legal theory. I don't advise spending too much money pursuing it.

  23. #23
    N_C
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
    On his web site that is.
    http://johnforester.com/Articles/Soc...Advocacies.htm See paragraph 2 & 3.
    Nothing like a one sided debate, Forester style. What a guy!
    Uh where does it mention BF or it's memebrs?

  24. #24
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester
    The rest of society, be they motorists on the road, highway engineers in their offices and on the highway, legislators in their halls, and just plain people, should treat cyclists with the same care and consideration that they treat other drivers of vehicles.
    All the rest of John's theories collapse when this assumption is revealed as the pipe dream it is, which will never become reality.

  25. #25
    Part-time epistemologist invisiblehand's Avatar
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    I have to check out his responses. Although it would make more sense if he responded directly to the forum.

    Then again, it might not be as productive.

    At least we know he reads other people's opinions.

    By the way, we sold our place in DC and are now looking for another place to live. Then comes the "exciting" part of actually moving. Apologies for my discontinuous participation. I hope no questions or statements directed to me were unanswered.

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