Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 1 of 18 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 449
  1. #1
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    13,075
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    VC vs. Hurst's "Art of urban cycling"

    WHO?

    This thread is for anyone who knows and has practiced advanced vehicular cycling (basically, the style/practice/methods/techniques/philosophy espoused in John Forester's Effective Cycling, John Franklin's Cyclecraft, and John S. Allen's Streetsmarts) and has read Robert Hurst's book, The Art of Urban Cycling (or the 2nd edition, The Art of Cycling).

    WHAT?

    The topic of this thread is to compare the style/practice/methods/techniques/philosophy of vehicular cycling to both vehicular cycling as described in Hurst's book, and to the style/practice/methods/techniques/philosophy that he advocates.

    To kick-off the discussion, here are some questions:
    1. Is Hurt's depiction of vehicular cycling in his book fair and accurate, as compared to how you understand vc? Based on on how he writes about vc, do you believe Hurst has a good understanding of vc? Please explain.
    2. Compare Hurst's "Art" (the style/practice/methods/techniques/philosophy that he advocates in his book) to VC. Are they basically the same? Substantially different? Please explain.
    3. Compare and contrast (as best as you can based on your knowledge/understanding of each) the different lane positioning approaches:
      1. Forester's destination and speed positioning principles/rules; positioning in order to maximize conspicuity and predictability.
      2. Franklin's "primary" and "secondary" riding positions.
      3. Hurst's positioning to maximize buffer space and vision.
    4. Do vigilance and responsibility play significantly different roles and/or have significantly different priorities in Hurst's philosophy than they do in VC? Please explain.
    5. Does "following the rules" play a significantly different role and/or have a significantly different priority in Hurst's philosophy than it does in VC? Please explain.
    WHY?

    The reason I'm starting this thread is because I believe Hurst's book is valuable and influential (and I strongly recommend it), but I think it has some problems in certain areas. I believe these problems are significant and are related to his depiction of VC (which I believe to be inaccurate) and some of the differences between VC and what he recommends. I think comparing Hurst's riding philsophy to the VC philosophy is a valuable exercise as part of forming, evaluating and refining one's own riding philosophy.
    Last edited by Helmet Head; 04-15-07 at 05:53 PM.

  2. #2
    Banned. galen_52657's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Towson, MD
    My Bikes
    2001 Look KG 241, 1989 Specialized Stump Jumper Comp, 1986 Gatane Performanc
    Posts
    4,020
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Do I have to read the books or can I just spout off???

  3. #3
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    13,075
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by galen_52657
    Do I have to read the books or can I just spout off???
    You have an obvious strong understanding of VC, so reading the VC books is not required. But this is mostly about comparing VC to Hurst, so reading Hurst is probably required, unless you have gleaned his philosophy well enough from other sources (like his posts on this forum).

    If you feel you can address the questions effectively, go for it!

  4. #4
    pj7
    pj7 is offline
    On Sabbatical
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    1,543
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Books, Movies, Music, & Entertainment
    That is the forum this thread belongs in.
    I am a sig Virus. Please put me in your sig so that I can continue to replicate.

  5. #5
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    The Cracker Factory
    Posts
    24,353
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Robert has called HH on some of his wacky theories, so now the bashing of Hurst's book is HH's latest crusade.
    Last edited by chipcom; 04-15-07 at 07:35 PM.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  6. #6
    Banned. galen_52657's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Towson, MD
    My Bikes
    2001 Look KG 241, 1989 Specialized Stump Jumper Comp, 1986 Gatane Performanc
    Posts
    4,020
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    get the pitch forks!!!!

  7. #7
    BF's Level 12 Wizard SingingSabre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    My Bikes
    Diamondback Sorrento turned Xtracycle commuter
    Posts
    1,414
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Is this like MTV's "Celebrity Deathmatch?"

    Do we get clay models of Forester and Hurst to fight in a ring? Who gets to chuck cogs at the other?! This could be quite exciting!

    Oh...wait...it's just a pointless, circular debate.
    Shameless plug (my sites):
    Photography
    Vanity
    Quote Originally Posted by Bklyn
    Obviously, the guy's like a 12th level white wizard or something. His mere presence is a danger to mortals.

  8. #8
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Still in Santa Barbara
    My Bikes
    Catrike Pocket, Lightning Thunderbold recumbent, Trek 3000 MTB.
    Posts
    4,920
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    ~Diane
    Recumbents: Lightning Thunderbolt, '06 Catrike Pocket. Upright: Trek Mountain Bike.
    8.5 mile commute. I like bike lanes.

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    7,283
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    WHO?

    This thread is for anyone who knows and has practiced advanced vehicular cycling (basically, the style/practice/methods/techniques/philosophy espoused in John Forester's Effective Cycling, John Franklin's Cyclecraft, and John S. Allen's Streetsmarts) and has read Robert Hurst's book, The Art of Urban Cycling (or the 2nd edition, The Art of Cycling).
    So we can only comment on Hurst's book if we're Foresterites?

    Your VC arguments get weaker with every breath you take, HH...

  10. #10
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    A land that time forgot
    My Bikes
    the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
    Posts
    18,026
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I ride VC- a lot more often than the original poster, and likely a lot more "advanced" than the original poster, and also recognize riders can ride VC in a bike lane.

    where does that put me in this thread analysis?
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  11. #11
    pj7
    pj7 is offline
    On Sabbatical
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    1,543
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    WHO?
    This thread is for anyone who knows and has practiced advanced vehicular cycling (basically, the style/practice/methods/techniques/philosophy espoused in John Forester's Effective Cycling, John Franklin's Cyclecraft, and John S. Allen's Streetsmarts) and has read Robert Hurst's book, The Art of Urban Cycling (or the 2nd edition, The Art of Cycling).
    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Advanced VC (AVC) is the collection of VC techniques, skills and practices
    few experienced cyclists already utilize, at least not consistently, and
    almost all novices have not learned, such as:
    So you want people who fit into your definition of AVC to post here, which you claim are few and far between, and expect this to be an impartial discussion?
    Don't plan on having many people post here eh? You said yourself that few cyclists utilize it.

    Then you talk about compairing Hursts definition of VC to (whos?) definition of VC based off your definion of VC. But only want it to be discussed by people who practice AVC.
    I think I can speak for the masses here when I say HUH??
    I am a sig Virus. Please put me in your sig so that I can continue to replicate.

  12. #12
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Burlington Iowa
    My Bikes
    Vaterland and Ragazzi
    Posts
    19,957
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by pj7
    Books, Movies, Music, & Entertainment
    That is the forum this thread belongs in.
    Politics and (especially) Religion seems to me to be the appropriate place for this topic.

  13. #13
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Burlington Iowa
    My Bikes
    Vaterland and Ragazzi
    Posts
    19,957
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by pj7
    I think I can speak for the masses here when I say HUH??
    I hear the cycling population chanting WTF!

  14. #14
    pj7
    pj7 is offline
    On Sabbatical
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    1,543
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
    I hear the cycling population chanting WTF!
    Sir, I believe you are correct.
    I am a sig Virus. Please put me in your sig so that I can continue to replicate.

  15. #15
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Still in Santa Barbara
    My Bikes
    Catrike Pocket, Lightning Thunderbold recumbent, Trek 3000 MTB.
    Posts
    4,920
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Why does anybody read books about cycling? Is it to study and deconstruct every single word? Does anybody really want yet another topic deconstructing the words of Robert Hurst in order to prove that John Forester is more precise about some abstract topic that has little to do with reality? I really can't see how this helps anybody, unless stroking egos is helpful.
    ~Diane
    Recumbents: Lightning Thunderbolt, '06 Catrike Pocket. Upright: Trek Mountain Bike.
    8.5 mile commute. I like bike lanes.

  16. #16
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Burlington Iowa
    My Bikes
    Vaterland and Ragazzi
    Posts
    19,957
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes
    Why does anybody read books about cycling? Is it to study and deconstruct every single word? Does anybody really want yet another topic deconstructing the words of Robert Hurst in order to prove that John Forester is more precise about some abstract topic that has little to do with reality? I really can't see how this helps anybody, unless stroking egos is helpful.
    Does Hurst have anything to say about how many angels can dance on a painted stripe? If this subject is not covered in excruciating detail there is nothing to discuss.

  17. #17
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    A land that time forgot
    My Bikes
    the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
    Posts
    18,026
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    i think robert hurst covers cycling a lot more succintly than john forester does. john's book is out of print and not available even at major public libraries. must have been a real stinker in the eyes of librarians, critics, etc.

    i find some unadulterated idol worship going on by the original poster....fawning over a long out of print, out of date book that contains a lot of malarky about bicycling.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  18. #18
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    13,075
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Order
    So we can only comment on Hurst's book if we're Foresterites?
    Not at all. Anyone who understands VC and Hurst would be interesting to hear from. An example of someone who understands VC but is clearly not a "Foresterite" is JRA. Genec and Brian Ratliff too. There are others, but they come to mind. Chipcom, Bek, and sbhikes are good examples of folks who don't get VC (they couldn't explain, for example, the fundamental differences between VC and Hurst's views). An excellent example outside of the forum of someone who understands VC is Jeffrey Hiles, author of "Listening to Bike Lanes".

  19. #19
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Burlington Iowa
    My Bikes
    Vaterland and Ragazzi
    Posts
    19,957
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Chipcom, Bek, and sbhikes are good examples of folks who don't get VC (they couldn't explain, for example, the fundamental differences between VC and Hurst's views).
    Maybe they have the good sense to not give a poop about those "fundamental" differences. In fact, who but HH does give a dang?

  20. #20
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    13,075
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
    Some people claim that they were unable to ride a bicycle on pavement until they read Forester's book.
    Really? Who?

  21. #21
    pj7
    pj7 is offline
    On Sabbatical
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    1,543
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    [CONFESSION]
    I was unable to ride a bicycle on pavement until I read Foresters book.
    [/CONFESSION]
    I am a sig Virus. Please put me in your sig so that I can continue to replicate.

  22. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    7,283
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Sadly, I rode on pavement for years before I...

    No, wait, I've never read Forester's book.

  23. #23
    Senior Member rando's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Tempe, AZ
    Posts
    2,967
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    oy vey.
    "Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen

    Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me

  24. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    7,283
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I have to say, though, I'm really enjoying Hurst's book.

    Still, according to HH, one can only comment on it if one "understands" VC...

  25. #25
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    A land that time forgot
    My Bikes
    the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
    Posts
    18,026
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    helmie, you think I don't know how to ride a bike according to the rules of the road? think I can't ride my bike like a vehicle?

    what a wonk.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

Page 1 of 18 12311 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •