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  1. #1
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    WWJR #1? Where would John ride #1?

    here's a photo of a road. where would John ride? What would John do?

    I'm a vehicular rider, and I would ride this road outside of the door zone, according to the rules of the road. I would be in the right hand side of the road, riding in the bike lane in a vehicular manner.

    WWJR? would you ignore the bike lane for political purposes, or would you ride outside the door zone? In effect, riding in the bike lane?

    John, waiting to hear from you. We'll assume you still ride a bike. Where would you position yourself riding straight down this road?
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    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  2. #2
    Cheesmonger Extraordinair natelutkjohn's Avatar
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    I wish we had roads like that where I live
    But they always tend to end after one block...

    And since my middle name is John, I can only assume you are asking where I would drive -
    That's a perfect example of a good bike lane in my opinion - I'd stay to the right side in that lane, outside of the car doors.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    here's a photo of a road. where would John ride? What would John do?

    I'm a vehicular rider, and I would ride this road outside of the door zone, according to the rules of the road. I would be in the right hand side of the road, riding in the bike lane in a vehicular manner.

    WWJR? would you ignore the bike lane for political purposes, or would you ride outside the door zone? In effect, riding in the bike lane?

    John, waiting to hear from you. We'll assume you still ride a bike. Where would you position yourself riding straight down this road?
    You appear not to have been reading the VC lists, bekologist. I repeat my standard instruction. That is, ride in the proper place for whatever you are doing, regardless of the presence or absence of a bike-lane stripe.

  4. #4
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    here's a photo of a road. where would John ride? What would John do?
    Who cares?

  5. #5
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    reading the VC lists? huh? didn't realize I had to keep up on 'lists' to ride a bike on the streets....

    and that 'instruction' places you physically where, john, for riding straight ahead on this road?
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  6. #6
    Striving for Fredness deputyjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    reading the VC lists? huh? didn't realize I had to keep up on 'lists' to ride a bike on the streets....

    and that 'instruction' places you physically where, john, for riding straight ahead on this road?
    +1 Bek. With all due respect Mr. Forester that was one of those Buddhist master "answer a question without answering it" answers. All due respect to Buddhist masters on the board.
    Monsignor: We must always fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil that we must fear the most, and that is the indifference of good men.
    Connor: I do believe the monsignor's finally got the point.
    Murphy: Aye.

    OttawaCountyDSA.com

  7. #7
    Sumanitu taka owaci LittleBigMan's Avatar
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    Part of that "bike lane" is in the door zone.

    I guess I'm waiting to hear why the line is so close to on-street parking, which is an answer I'll never get.
    No worries

  8. #8
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Forester
    You appear not to have been reading the VC lists, bekologist. I repeat my standard instruction. That is, ride in the proper place for whatever you are doing, regardless of the presence or absence of a bike-lane stripe.
    Trust me, John, he's heard it repeated many times before here on this forum.

    He can't seem to accept that means you sometimes ride in the bike lane, you sometimes don't, it just depends on the normal factors and conditions, and has nothing to do with the presence of the stripe.

    My answer to the question is : it depends. It depends on the current factors and conditions, which include:
    1. the presence or absence of same-direction traffic, and how fast it's moving and with what volumes.
    2. If same direction traffic is present that is faster than me, whether 5' from the edge of the cars puts me in or outside of the bike lane (hard to tell from the photo).
    3. Whether there is debris in the bike lane.
    4. Whether I'm riding into the sun or not.
    5. How wide the adjacent lane is.
    6. If faster traffic is present, where 3' to the right of them puts me. If it puts me outside of the bike lane, that's probably where I ride. If it puts me near the stripe, that probably where I ride. If it puts me in the door zone, I take control of the lane by riding further left, well outside of the bike lane.
    7. etc.

  9. #9
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    helmet, I can accept the typical spiel against riding in facilities from you, that's for sure.

    That's a bike lane that's buffered, away from the door zone, and five feet wide. the majority of of the bike lane is MOST DEFINETLY not in the door zone, it is clean and free of debris. there is PLENTY of room to ride outside the door zone and still be to the right of the left white stripe.

    I beleive even the dogmaticly addled VC would be riding in the bike lane, according to vehicular operation of their bike and following the rules of the road.

    I predict even John Forester would be riding there, although he's going to pretend he's ignoring the stripes on the road.

    the vehemently anti-facilties VC are rich in humor and denial.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  10. #10
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    I'll answer your question Bek. I'd probably be riding at the left edge of the bike lane, but with that intersection coming up, if there was any traffic coming behind me I'd probably be getting out in the lane so they would have room to turn right behind me, rather than through me.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  11. #11
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    helmet, I can accept the typical spiel against riding in facilities from you, that's for sure.

    That's a bike lane that's buffered, away from the door zone, and five feet wide. the majority of of the bike lane is MOST DEFINETLY not in the door zone, it is clean and free of debris. there is PLENTY of room to ride outside the door zone and still be to the right of the left white stripe.

    I beleive even the dogmaticly addled VC would be riding in the bike lane, according to vehicular operation of their bike and following the rules of the road.
    If faster traffic is present, the "dogmaticly addled VC" would ride about 3' to the right of passing traffic, whether that happened to put him in the bike lane or not, as long as it kept him outside of the door zone.

    I predict even John Forester would be riding there, although he's going to pretend he's ignoring the stripes on the road.
    A cyclist who happens to be riding in a bike lane does not mean he's not ignoring the stripe.

  12. #12
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom
    I'll answer your question Bek. I'd probably be riding at the left edge of the bike lane, but with that intersection coming up, if there was any traffic coming behind me I'd probably be getting out in the lane so they would have room to turn right behind me, rather than through me.
    Yes, the upcoming intersection is reason to move left and out of the bike lane, but so are all the parked cars. If there is a no motor traffic, someone, or a dog, could suddenly jump out from between those cars thinking it was a quiet empty street. Better to increase your buffer to the right if there is no good reason not to.

  13. #13
    Banned. galen_52657's Avatar
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    I would ride 5' left of the parked vehicles regardless of which side of the line that put me on.

  14. #14
    Sumanitu taka owaci LittleBigMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    That's a bike lane that's buffered, away from the door zone, and five feet wide. the majority of of the bike lane is MOST DEFINETLY not in the door zone, it is clean and free of debris. there is PLENTY of room to ride outside the door zone and still be to the right of the left white stripe.
    1) "Away from the door zone," no.

    3) "...five feet wide," YES!

    3) "Clean and free of debris," YES!

    4) "PLENTY of room to ride outside the door zone and still be to the right of the left white stripe," no.

    I get more room from passing motorists in a standard lane, unless passing motorists ignore the stripe.
    No worries

  15. #15
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    double negative hilarity.


    " A cyclist who happens to be riding in a bike lane does not mean he's not ignoring the stripe." edited... "a cyclist riding in a bike lane means he is ignoring the stripe." actually, no, helemt head. I sometimes recommend riding as if the stripes are not there, but that STILL doesn't mean i'm ignoring the bike lane stripes OR riding outside of the bike lane.

    I find all this banter about ignoring the bike lane, of avoiding dogs jumping out into the road, hilarious.

    On this stretch of road, a rider out of the door zone, 3 feet to the right of passing traffic, is IN THE BIKE LANE.

    Galen, riding 5 FEET away from the parked cars, would be riding in the bike lane.

    A vehicular cyclist CAN RIDE in the bike lane, fellas. despite the protestations seen in this thread.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  16. #16
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
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    I would ride smack dab in the middle of that bike lane, and quite happily. But then nobody cares what li'l ol' me would do.
    ~Diane
    Recumbents: Lightning Thunderbolt, '06 Catrike Pocket. Upright: Trek Mountain Bike.
    8.5 mile commute. I like bike lanes.

  17. #17
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Yes, the upcoming intersection is reason to move left and out of the bike lane, but so are all the parked cars. If there is a no motor traffic, someone, or a dog, could suddenly jump out from between those cars thinking it was a quiet empty street. Better to increase your buffer to the right if there is no good reason not to.
    Left edge of that bike lane is plenty of space to accomplish both keeping out of the door zone and to see what might come from between the cars, especially if you are looking ahead, rather than what is right in front of or to the side of you. You just have a line phobia me thinks.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  18. #18
    Sumanitu taka owaci LittleBigMan's Avatar
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    Door zone bike lanes...



    What'll they think of next? Nicotine-free cigarettes?
    No worries

  19. #19
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom
    Left edge of that bike lane is plenty of space to accomplish both keeping out of the door zone and to see what might come from between the cars, especially if you are looking ahead, rather than what is right in front of or to the side of you. You just have a line phobia me thinks.
    It has nothing to do with the line - it's just a useful frame of reference in the photo.

    5' away from the cars is out of the door zone, but I'd rather be further if I could. That improves my sight lines looking ahead too.

    That's just as true whether or not there happens to be a line there.

  20. #20
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
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    That bike lane isn't in the door zone. You could open the door all the way and still have tons of room leftover. Sure, the door might encroach on the right edge of the bike lane, but only if someone opened the door all the way. People don't normally open the door all the way. That bike lane delineates more space than most cyclists would ever claim for themselves.
    ~Diane
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    8.5 mile commute. I like bike lanes.

  21. #21
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    double negative hilarity.

    " A cyclist who happens to be riding in a bike lane does not mean he's not ignoring the stripe." edited... "a cyclist riding in a bike lane means he is ignoring the stripe." .
    Learn to parse English and study some basic logic, Beck. My original statement and your edited version are not equivalent in meaning.

  22. #22
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    It has nothing to do with the line - it's just a useful frame of reference in the photo.

    5' away from the cars is out of the door zone, but I'd rather be further if I could. That improves my sight lines looking ahead too.

    That's just as true whether or not there happens to be a line there.
    In this case, you'd have to be doing your peek-a-boo shenanagins when traffic approaches from the rear...rather than holding a predictable line in a marked lane like MOST traffic does - non-vehicular IMO. If it is safe enough without going out of the lane, as it seems to be in this case, your druthers are just an exercise in dogma rather than sharing the road courteously with other traffic. I don't care about the line either, but you seem to be going out of your way to insist that you should be outside it...sure sounds like a line phobia to me.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  23. #23
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    hehehehe.

    whatever, mr. head. your spiel is hilarious. what are you trying to say? you think MY 'parsing' your sentence isn't good enough for your intent?

    whatever.

    since he hasn't anwsered since his 'stripes aren't there' koan, I predict john forester would be riding (if he still rides a bike) in the space demarcated by the bike lane in that photo, just like Galen or the rest of the realistic vehicular cyclists. out of the door zone, destination positioned. in the bike lane.

    like chip, I also consider Helemt's power dodge, peek-a-boo 'technique' to be complicating riding according to the rules of the road, and to even be non vehicular in the face of this quality of accomodation. perfectly acceptable to ride in as a vehicle, according to the vehicular rules of the road, in a lane on the road like this one- the bike lane.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  24. #24
    Striving for Fredness deputyjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes
    I would ride smack dab in the middle of that bike lane, and quite happily. But then nobody cares what li'l ol' me would do.
    I care SB, especially considering you have a slightly different insight in that you ride a 'bent.
    Monsignor: We must always fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil that we must fear the most, and that is the indifference of good men.
    Connor: I do believe the monsignor's finally got the point.
    Murphy: Aye.

    OttawaCountyDSA.com

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    helmet, I can accept the typical spiel against riding in facilities from you, that's for sure.

    That's a bike lane that's buffered, away from the door zone, and five feet wide. the majority of of the bike lane is MOST DEFINETLY not in the door zone, it is clean and free of debris. there is PLENTY of room to ride outside the door zone and still be to the right of the left white stripe.

    I beleive even the dogmaticly addled VC would be riding in the bike lane, according to vehicular operation of their bike and following the rules of the road.

    I predict even John Forester would be riding there, although he's going to pretend he's ignoring the stripes on the road.

    the vehemently anti-facilties VC are rich in humor and denial.
    The previous remarks demonstrate the extent to which your emotions have overtaken your reasoning power. Just take me at my word when I say that I would ride in the proper lateral location for the circumstances, regardless of the presence or absence of the bike-lane stripe. And there's no political point in doing so, because it is what is rationally required regardless of politics. That is, I suppose, unless one was making a political advertisement, or some such.

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