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  1. #401
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rando
    but you're not just acknowledging what they wrote. you're tearing it apart, and arguing with it, writing hypothetical situations about it and writing multiple paragaphs about how it is wrong, wrong, wrong. it's incredibly superfluous.
    If that is not what a forum like this is for, then what is it for?

    Why post something on a forum like this if you can't tell whether it makes sense to others, or whether they agree or not, and, if not, what their reasons are for disagreeing?

    If this forum is not for sharing the reasons that form the basis for our opinions, then what is it for?

  2. #402
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Tell you what, HH. I'll drop my objections to your posting if you can answer correctly here:

    1) What is my position on bike lanes and WOLs? Why do I support bike lanes over WOLs? The whole argument, not a snide snippet or two. And free of your counter arguments. I already know your take on the whole ordeal, I don't need it repeated.

    2) What is my riding style in traffic?

    Answer those correctly and, well, I'm wrong, you are not just going for debate points. We've been talking for 2 years. You should know this.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  3. #403
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    Tell you what, HH. I'll drop my objections to your posting if you can answer correctly here:

    1) What is my position on bike lanes and WOLs? Why do I support bike lanes over WOLs? The whole argument, not a snide snippet or two. And free of your counter arguments. I already know your take on the whole ordeal, I don't need it repeated.

    2) What is my riding style in traffic?

    Answer those correctly and, well, I'm wrong, you are not just going for debate points. We've been talking for 2 years. You should know this.
    Will do, but I asked you first.

  4. #404
    Senior Member rando's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    If that is not what a forum like this is for, then what is it for?

    Why post something on a forum like this if you can't tell whether it makes sense to others, or whether they agree or not, and, if not, what their reasons are for disagreeing?

    If this forum is not for sharing the reasons that form the basis for our opinions, then what is it for?
    OK, can't argue with that.

  5. #405
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Like I thought. A power play. I will not sift through hundreds or thousands of posts to find some words of yours. I am not asking for you to do that here. I am asking for you to state your impressions of me in your own words.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  6. #406
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    Like I thought. A power play. I will not sift through hundreds or thousands of posts to find some words of yours. I am not asking for you to do that here. I am asking for you to state your impressions of me in your own words.
    Power play? I'm just asking for some basic fairness. From last night, post #388:

    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    As an example, despite the hundreds of posts we've had regarding bike lanes, see if you can summarize my position on bike lanes in a manner that doesn't twist my position. I believe you cannot, because you never seriously considered it. But, again, I leave myself wide open to be proven wrong.
    Why should I comply with your request when you refuse to comply with mine? I have agreed to yours, if you agree to mine. No powerplay. No sifting required. Just basic win-win negotiation.

  7. #407
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    HH, you dislike bike lanes for several reasons.

    reasons:

    1) There is a social stigma against cyclists being equal road users which is amplified by bike lanes.

    2) Bike lanes inhibit cyclists from learning proper VC lane positioning.

    3) Bike lanes tend to put cyclists too far to the right in traffic and fix the lateral location of the cyclist (as opposed to letting the cyclist figure out the best lateral position on a dynamic basis).

    4) Bike lanes enable faster and closer passing of cars.

    5) Cyclists are more likely to be overlooked by drivers in a bike lane, because of the to-the-right lane positioning and because of the mental barrier put up by the bike lane line, making cyclists vulnerable to inadvertant drift.

    6) Bike lanes, as a side effect of keeping cyclists to the right, make cyclists vulnerable to right hooks.

    7) Bike lanes tend to attract debris

    8) Bike lanes tend to place a cyclist in the door zone of parallel parked cars.


    There might be others, but these are the main ones you've stated and we've talked about.

    Your turn.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  8. #408
    Striving for Fredness deputyjones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Why should I comply with your request when you refuse to comply with mine? I have agreed to yours, if you agree to mine. No powerplay. No sifting required. Just basic win-win negotiation.
    nah, na, na, na, nah..."My dad can beat up yours"
    Monsignor: We must always fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil that we must fear the most, and that is the indifference of good men.
    Connor: I do believe the monsignor's finally got the point.
    Murphy: Aye.

    OttawaCountyDSA.com

  9. #409
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    HH, you dislike bike lanes for several reasons.

    reasons:

    1) There is a social stigma against cyclists being equal road users which is amplified by bike lanes.

    2) Bike lanes inhibit cyclists from learning proper VC lane positioning.

    3) Bike lanes tend to put cyclists too far to the right in traffic and fix the lateral location of the cyclist (as opposed to letting the cyclist figure out the best lateral position on a dynamic basis).

    4) Bike lanes enable faster and closer passing of cars.

    5) Cyclists are more likely to be overlooked by drivers in a bike lane, because of the to-the-right lane positioning and because of the mental barrier put up by the bike lane line, making cyclists vulnerable to inadvertant drift.

    6) Bike lanes, as a side effect of keeping cyclists to the right, make cyclists vulnerable to right hooks.

    7) Bike lanes tend to attract debris

    8) Bike lanes tend to place a cyclist in the door zone of parallel parked cars.


    There might be others, but these are the main ones you've stated and we've talked about.

    Your turn.
    Very good. I'm impressed. Limiting #6 to right hook vulnerability is the only significant specific problem I can see. Encouraging cyclists to go straight from space to the right of straight-or-right lanes also makes them vulnerable to left and right crosses, and that threat is arguably more significant than the right hook threat, which already is nothing to sneeze at.

    I also would not call these reasons that I "dislike" bike lanes, rather they are reasons that I oppose most of them. But that's a nit.

    But overall my argument is that the advantages of bike lanes to cyclists do not outweigh the disadvantages, listed above, at least not in most urban/suburban areas where intersections (including midblock intersections with driveways, alleys, etc.) are relatively frequent.

    I would also add:

    9) I do not believe bike lanes make bicycling more popular by any significant degree.


    My understanding of your position on bike lanes and WOLs is:

    1) you believe WOLs are not vehicular because you don't see lane-splitting/lane-sharing as being vehicular (though I'm not sure why, except that lanes are of course rarely wide enough for car drivers to lane share/split safely).

    2) you believe the BL stripe provides "order" to traffic that mixes motorists with bicyclists (though how you believe it provides order with crossing traffic has never been clear to me).

    3) you believe bike lanes increase the popularity of bicycling.

    (Ugh, gotta go right now, will complete later in separate post or by adding to this one... sorry).

  10. #410
    Biscuit Boy Cosmoline's Avatar
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    Fascinating thread about an interesting fellow. I had the pleasure of deposing him in a litigation a few years ago. He had been hired as an expert witness by the other side in a really unfortunate bike accident case. My co-counsel rubbed him the wrong way and they got in a shouting match, but I found much of what he said was quite sensible. In the end I wasn't sure why the other side had hired him for their case, but I was impressed with his knowledge.
    ''On a bicycle you're not insulated. You're in contact with the landscape and all manner of people you'd never meet if you were in a car. A fat man on a bicycle is nobody's enemy.''

    Tom Vernon.

  11. #411
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Sounds like your co-counsel wanted to engage in a debate rather than simply ask questions and listen to the answers.

  12. #412
    Sumanitu taka owaci LittleBigMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmoline View Post
    Fascinating thread about an interesting fellow. I had the pleasure of deposing him in a litigation a few years ago. He had been hired as an expert witness by the other side in a really unfortunate bike accident case. My co-counsel rubbed him the wrong way and they got in a shouting match, but I found much of what he said was quite sensible. In the end I wasn't sure why the other side had hired him for their case, but I was impressed with his knowledge.
    I am impressed with your backhanded compliment.
    Last edited by LittleBigMan; 07-20-07 at 07:39 PM.
    No worries

  13. #413
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleBigMan View Post
    I am impressed with your backhanded compliment.
    I'm not sure where either the backhand or the compliment is in the part you quoted. Seems like a simple reporting of this fellow's experience with our John Forester.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  14. #414
    Sumanitu taka owaci LittleBigMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    I'm not sure where either the backhand or the compliment is in the part you quoted. Seems like a simple reporting of this fellow's experience with our John Forester.
    Save me from ever being the subject of similar "simple reporting."
    No worries

  15. #415
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    Impressive. This sub-forum has only ten or twenty hard-core regulars, but between them, they can generate 400 responses in a thread.

    Of course, 390 of them are from the "your mom wears army boots" school of discussion, but still, very impressive.

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