sbhikes

So why is there so much fuss about a lane classed for bikes but everybody is yawning about a lane classed for buses AND bikes?

LittleBigMan

...I don't know....ask Bek, he brought it up.

Bekologist

I'm trying to get to if this type of lane is considered 'vehicular' by the vehicular cyclists.

regular traffic can't travel straight in this lane. only buses and bikes. is it considered 'vehicular' to ride in a special classed lane?

and what if the signs say 'right turn only except bikes'?

what if the signs say 'bikes only'?

LittleBigMan

I'm not very religious in the vehicular cycling sense (or any other.) I prefer truth to religion.

If they build some piece of road with requirements, I'll try to do as the Romans do (or are supposed to do, or something,) but in the end, I'll adapt.

Ok?

sggoodri

Speaking from a purely operational standpoint, a bus-width lane seems like a better width for cycling than the narrow bike lanes built where I live; a bus-width lane allows me to stay out of the door zone without riding on top of a lane stripe, and with plenty of buffer space to the adjacent line of traffic, and a lane used by buses and other motor traffic will get swept automatically by that traffic, rather than filling up with debris like the bike lanes where I live. Also, if motorists understand that they are allowed and expected to use the lane for turning right, I am less likely to experience right-hook conflicts.

Then again, we don't have any bus lanes where I live, so I'm just speculating.

Bekologist

so autocentric where you live, steve. no bus lanes? you must have substandard infrastructure and public transit there.

oh, and i'm sure the standard argument is 'people don't WANT to use public transit so why have infrastructure to support it?' despite 35 percent of the american population that DOESN'T drive.

anyhoo,for the rest of the crowd....

riding in a long stretch of "right turn only lane EXCEPT buses and bikes." vehicular?

noisebeam

I ride thru a 1/2mi stretch like this, there are 5 RTOLs in quick succession, separated by short stretches of gore area. I choose to ride in the right most narrow thru lane, as I don't want to have to several times in a row enter the RTOL from the gore area. I do get honked in this area. Interestingly traffic is usually very light, even so in using narrow outside thru lane, drivers more often chose to honk and close pass vs. using inside lane. The happens far more than if the multiple RTOL was not there.
Al

Bekologist

al, you are the honk attractor.

noisebeam

I've never been honked at while driving in a wide lane.
Al

galen_52657

bike lane = 4' wide debris filled crap.

bus/bike/right turn only lane = 12' wide, clean and well paved.

Bekologist

i disagree with steve's assessment of the reclassifying of transit, bikes and right turn lanes to dual purpose lanes. this would cause congestion for buses, add traffic to the right turn lane, and create much more crowding for bikes on 50 mph arterials and hinder expediency of bicycling along this type of classed roadway, increasing the potential for right hooks.

joejack951

I ride daily on a road that's setup similarly to how Bek has described his road. The only difference is that the right lane is not marked for bikes and buses; it's a shoulder that turns into a right turn lane at all intersections except for private driveways and a few small businesses. In between intersections in each direction you have a full lane width shoulder, 2 traffic lanes, and a center median. At intersections, the shoulder becomes a right turn lane and at all lighted intersections and some non-lighted intersections, the median becomes a left turn lane.

There are some midblock right turn lanes going into small neighborhoods that I have no issue using to go straight at slower speeds. There are other right turn lanes that you couldn't pay me enough to go straight through, including the ones going to the Acme (which I pass every work day) or Lowes parking lots, or the apartment complex near my neighborhood (again, I avoid the right turn area here every day regardless of my speed or traffic). These turn lanes get too much use from people exiting and entering the roadway. The width of the right turn lane means that most motorists are not going to try and right hook a cyclist using that area of the road. But, at the same time, the speed on the roadway is high enough that when right hooks do happen, they occur at very high speeds (the right turn lanes are long enough to be used as deceleration lanes by full speed traffic). Traffic entering the roadway is much more concerned with spotting a gap in the high speed motor traffic than checking for cyclists going straight from an area where no other traffic is going straight from. This is my biggest issue with using the lesser used right turn lanes which is why I avoid them whenever it's easy enough to do so (when my speed is greater or when there are gaps in traffic).

So, my thoughts are that these types of right turn + bike/bus lane installations are not that problematic at lighter use intersections where the vast majority of traffic is going straight. If you can avoid using the right turn area to go straight without causing a big interference with straight through traffic then I would do that though. At heavily used intersections, such as those at shopping area entrances or high density living areas, cyclists should be using the right most through lane to avoid any of the hazards I listed above.

Is what I described vehicular? For the few slow moving vehicles (aside from cyclists) that I've seen using this road I would say yes.

Bekologist

i don't think you've described the same riding scenario as I have at all, joe.

On the type of road I've described, at the major intersections- like traffic signals- the "right turn only EXCEPT buses and bikes" continues past the intersection. with heavy, 50 mile per hour traffic on the other lanes, the expedient position for a vehicular cyclist is continuing to use the classed lane thru the major intersection.

noisebeam

Bek, can you better describe, illustrate, photograph, the situation you have? I don't get the county line part.

Bekologist

its' a change at the county line. you've seen differences between counties before, haven't you?

i was going to ride up there to take pictures this morning, but have an early afternoon ride planned in the opposite direction.

how difficult is it to visualize a six lane, busy, 50 mph road with a right hand lane signed "right turn only EXCEPT buses and bikes" and continues that way for miles?

heavy traffic in the thru lanes. right turning traffic, buses and bikes in the right hand lane. like galen describes on the last page, it's like having the lane mostly to yourself.

Brian Ratliff

Bek,

Where is this? I used to live in the Seattle area.

noisebeam

It's difficult as I have no idea how many turns there are, how far apart, where they go, and for how long the RTOL which apparently starts at a county line (which is important, why?), continues. Is it a thru lane that turns into a RTOL? or an added lane?
Al

noisebeam

Here is a video of riding past multiple RTOLs.

youtube 9WZoXNbxXgc

Of course this is not the same scenario as presented by Bek, but it is a different implementation to accomidate the same type of traffic flow need. That is why I show it.

Al

Bekologist

Brian, north of Seattle, on Aurora Avenue- Highway 99 - once it crosses the Snohomish county line. up in suburban spawl-dystopia.

sggoodri

That's not what I said. You are speaking about combination bike/bus/right turn lanes. I was talking about right-turn-only lanes where through travel is prohibited for everyone.

Bekologist

not that you've ever seen or ridden the type of road in the original post, but whatdyathink, steve?

a lot less traffic, only buses and the ocasional right turner, and bikes, along a busy, high speed arterial? vehcular? any more preferable road design? seemed like you were suggesting bikes stay in the lanes with a lot of heavy, fast traffic. which, as far as i can tell, in actuality, (not hypothetically) discourages transportational cycling, regardless of lane width.

noisebeam

If this is a case of three unrestricted lanes changing to two unrestricted thru lanes and one RTOL/bike/bus lane, I can't see how the change is substantial for cyclists.

Previously to outer lane restriction if a cyclist is using full outer lane, motorist has two addtional lanes to pass with.

With outer lane restriction, those three lanes of traffic are now squeezed into two. If two lanes can handle the traffic, I can't see how three with a cyclist using outer lane can not.

Al

webist

It seems that the sign offers cyclists the option of using the RTOL. I didn't see mention of a sign which said cyclists were banned from the next lane over.

sggoodri

It would help if you would use quotes so I could determine which of my words you misunderstood.

I don't like cycling roads that have continuous right-turn-only lanes (where straight travel is prohibited) next to narrow through lanes. If I am in the narrow through lane, people honk at me; if I am continuing straight ahead in the right turn only lane, I am operating unlawfully and inconsistent with the markings, and will have problems where the lane ends.

The right turn only lanes that cause me headaches here won't ever become bus-and-bike lanes because the lanes are intended to eventually become through lanes when the rest of the road is widened, and because in my suburb, there is unlikely to ever be enough bus traffic to warrant bus lanes on surface streets. This has nothing to do with my preference; that's just reality.

I should note, every bike lane that doesn't end prior to a junction or proceed left of an RTOL should be considered a "bike and right turn lane" in order to minimize right-hooks. Some states explicitly require merging into the bike lane when approaching a right turn. Making the bike lane as wide as a bus probably reduces some of the problems I experience with bike lanes. I don't know if it would cause any new ones.

Bekologist

steve, you WOULDN'T be operating unlawfully in a "Right turn only EXCEPT buses and bikes" lane.