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View Poll Results: Motorists: friends or foes? (p.s., are you a VC?)

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  • Friends (And yes, I AM a Vehicular Cyclist)

    14 51.85%
  • Friends (And no I am NOT a Vehicular Cyclist)

    4 14.81%
  • Foes (And, yes, I AM a Vehicular Cyclist)

    6 22.22%
  • Foes (And, no, I am NOT a Vehicular Cyclist)

    3 11.11%
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  1. #26
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec
    LOL come drive in southern California if you really feel there is no competetion, no winning, and especially no forcing...

    Guns have been drawn to determine "winners... " You figure it out.
    I meant that riding in a centerish position is not about competetion.

    Sure driving has become competetive for many, speeding to see who can gain a few spaces closer to the front at the next red light. That I don't disagree. I do disagree that a driver (of any vehicle) must take part in this competetion or needs to take on a competetive stance to travel effectively and safely.

    Al

  2. #27
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noisebeam
    I meant that riding in a centerish position is not about competetion.

    Sure driving has become competetive for many, speeding to see who can gain a few spaces closer to the front at the next red light. That I don't disagree. I do disagree that a driver (of any vehicle) must take part in this competetion or needs to take on a competetive stance to travel effectively and safely.

    Al
    I agree with you regarding the competitive stance... however, the majority of motorists are not in agreement with us.

  3. #28
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    Evidently not.

    Brian, very nicely said... I borrowed a bit of it. Thanks

  4. #29
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec
    I agree with you regarding the competitive stance... however, the majority of motorists are not in agreement with us.
    Some of us have learned how to drop out of the race and find it easier, safer and more enjoyable with no measureable time loss.

    Al

  5. #30
    Senior Member BLIZZ's Avatar
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    I don't see motorist so much as foes, but I don't give them the benefit of the doubt like I used too.
    I have been proven wrong to many times, and the risks seem to be getting higher.
    I'm not totally useless....I can be used as a BAD example.

  6. #31
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    But now throw in a wrinkle. Cyclists are, in general, small and without a defined outline, making them hard to see, and slow.


    This is funny coming from someone who has also said, "And enough of this 'cyclist inferiority syndrome' or any such nonsense." [1]. After you, my friend, after you.

    On a road designed for one type of vehicle of a certain size with a defined outline, and traveling at basically a single speed which is much faster than most bicyclists can travel, a bicyclist is out of place.
    What are you talking about? Do you know of any roads "designed for one type of vehicle of a certain size with a defined outline, and traveling at basically a single speed which is much faster than most bicyclists can travel"? I don't. Not even freeways fit all of that bill.

    This situation puts cyclists and motorists in conflict and competition.
    Perhaps on a hypothetical road that doesn't exist... so what?

    In this situation, vehicular cycling is merely a technique of using lane positioning as a weapon to win this competition, to make a motorist respond to the nimble and bold cyclist, to give the cyclist confidence that the competition can be won, to normalize the roadway relations so that the motorists, again, can behave in a way which doesn't involve thinking. But it is a forceful and competitive position, and the cyclist is out of place, so emotions flair.
    To reduce vehicular cycling to "merely a technique of using lane positioning", in any context, is absurd.
    Vehicular cycling is as much about attitude as anything else, an attitude that you clearly have not adopted.

    "The vehicular-style cyclist not only acts outwardly like a driver, he knows inwardly that he is one. Instead of feeling like a tresspasser on roads owned by the cars he feels like just another driver with a slightly different vehicle, one who is participating and cooperating in the organized mutual effort to get to desired destinations with the least trouble." John Forester, Bicycle Transportation, 1994, p. 3.

    Do you feels like just another driver with a slightly different vehicle? Your words indicate otherwise. I couldn't have come up with a better counter-example to what Forester is writing here than your words, no matter how hard I tried.

    Anyone can utilize some vc techniques here and there, and I'm sure you do. But to truly practice vehicular cycling, consistently, one has to be a vehicular cyclist inside, which you clearly are not.

    If you want an answer to the above question with some political overtones, motorists are mostly cooperative when the road is designed for both bicyclists and cars, and motorists are mostly uncooperative when the road is designed soley for cars. I think motorists feel the same way about cyclists too. Designing a road system for both motorists and cyclists is difficult, and there will always be some points of conflict, but rulemaking, education, and good roadway design can make up for the shortcomings of such a duel useage system. But the alternative, designing the road system for only automobiles and neglecting space for cyclists will always put motorists and cyclists in competition and conflict.
    Cyclist inferiority syndrome, in spades.

  7. #32
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Yawn...

    Whatever you say, man. I kind of thought that you'd use this to attack me. Whatever.

    Look't me everyone!!! I've got Cyclist Inferiority Syndrome! Do I get worker's comp for this?
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  8. #33
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Hey look, HH! You're winning, 9 to 4!
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  9. #34
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    This is all evidently in bad faith. I cannot even post an honest response without it being pointed out that 1) I'm full of *****, and 2) I have some sort of undiagnosed disease that obviously puts me in a lower category than these hot ***** VC'ists.

    Okay. I'll just ride my bike. I've got a 50 mile round trip commute through all sorts of roads to concentrate on. All this political posturing is just wasting my time.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  10. #35
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Hey, HH, did you get all the data you need? Over 69% of polling respondents choose friendly. This proves that the other four respondents are marginallized. I love these polls.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  11. #36
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Oh, I forgot. There must be a correlation between seeing motorists as friendly and vehicular cyclists. It's 69% approval of this view!!! A bit of a split between non-VC'ers, 50-50, it appears.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  12. #37
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Hey look, everyone. Look at post 31. There is a right answer, after all.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  13. #38
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Or, at least, in HH's eyes, there is.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  14. #39
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    See, I just found a nice new commute route yesterday which avoided most of this traffic stuff. HH, would you choose the nicer route with shoulders on all the roads and less traffic if it meant adding a mile on to your dinky little 5 mile route?
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  15. #40
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    It is simply amazing how much calmer things are when there is a bike lane on the road so that motorists and cyclists can cooperate without pissing each other off. I know, noisebeam likes his 20 second honks and is deluded enough to think that this motorist is in the minority. Naw, he's not in the minority. Another generalization about people is that for every one person who takes action against an annoyance, there's 100 others that are rooting him on.

    If thinking that motorists are friendly until proven otherwise gets you through your day, good for you. But realize that this is a delusion. That's why you get honks and screaching tires and yelling. But, whatever works. I'm not going to step on your religion if you need it to steel yourself to ride. It's better that you ride than not.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  16. #41
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    Yawn...

    Whatever you say, man. I kind of thought that you'd use this to attack me. Whatever.

    Look't me everyone!!! I've got Cyclist Inferiority Syndrome! Do I get worker's comp for this?
    I'm sorry you feel attacked. That was not my intent.

    I'm just pointing out the irony of you denying the existence of a syndrome that your own words exemplify.

    This is all evidently in bad faith. I cannot even post an honest response without it being pointed out that 1) I'm full of *****, and 2) I have some sort of undiagnosed disease that obviously puts me in a lower category than these hot ***** VC'ists.

    Okay. I'll just ride my bike. I've got a 50 mile round trip commute through all sorts of roads to concentrate on. All this political posturing is just wasting my time.
    Bad faith? What did I say that was in bad faith? You think I was dishonest? About what?

    No one said you were full of ***** or have any kind of disease. I simply pointed out that your words indicate an attitude contrary to that of a vehicular cyclist and consistent with one who sees bicyclists as inferior to motorists on the roadway.
    Can you honestly deny that your words demonstrate this?

    I don't get why you're offended. If I believed that cyclists were inferior to motorists in the ways you've written about, then I would not be ashamed to admit this, or be offended when someone pointed it out.

    I don't get why cyclists who believe that cyclists are inferior are so reluctant to admit they believe this.

    See, I just found a nice new commute route yesterday which avoided most of this traffic stuff. HH, would you choose the nicer route with shoulders on all the roads and less traffic if it meant adding a mile on to your dinky little 5 mile route?
    Probably not. When my purpose is utility-transportational (get to work, get home), I tend to take what I believe to be the faster route, period. Plus, I genuinely like the "traffic stuff" (except for waiting at red lights, but even that doesn't bug me as much as it used to).

    When riding for recreational/health purposes, yeah, i'm likely to take the alternate routes.

    Note that recreational rides can become utilitarian, like when I'm late getting home. Then "faster route" takes precedence.
    Similarly, utilitarian rides can become recreational, if I have extra time.

    It is simply amazing how much calmer things are when there is a bike lane on the road so that motorists and cyclists can cooperate without pissing each other off.
    It's the space, not the stripe, that allows for that.

    I know, noisebeam likes his 20 second honks and is deluded enough to think that this motorist is in the minority. Naw, he's not in the minority. Another generalization about people is that for every one person who takes action against an annoyance, there's 100 others that are rooting him on.
    Who cares what they think? The more cyclists out there, the more they'll get used to it. The more cyclists out there in bike lanes, the more they'll get used to cyclists being out of the way, "like they should be."

    If thinking that motorists are friendly until proven otherwise gets you through your day, good for you. But realize that this is a delusion. That's why you get honks and screaching tires and yelling. But, whatever works. I'm not going to step on your religion if you need it to steel yourself to ride. It's better that you ride than not.
    You are confusing positive attitude, which is a requirement for vehicular-cycling, with religion. One can have a positive attitude without being religious. The vehicular cyclist must have a positive attitude about his place on the roadway relative to motorists. I don't mean it as an attack when I say you clearly do not have the requisite attitude. FYI.
    Last edited by Helmet Head; 04-24-07 at 04:41 PM.

  17. #42
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    I just stated it like I see it. Perhaps I have this syndrome people keep talking about. Except, what does it mean, HH? I mean, you call everyone who disagrees with you an inferior person... uh, I mean, that you claim that everyone who disagrees has cyclist inferiority syndrome. Everything from fearing traffic to the rear to not having the "VC attitude". If you have to have an Attitude to bicycle, isn't this just the same as needing your magic feather to fly? If you need an Attitude to bicycle, then you are bicycling with the aid of a delusion.
    Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 04-24-07 at 04:33 PM.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  18. #43
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    I'm sorry you feel attacked. That was not my intent.

    I'm just pointing out the irony of you denying the existence of a syndrome that your own words exemplify.
    Right. You created the label from whole cloth, stuck it on me, then claimed the irony.

    I don't recognize the syndrome. It doesn't exist. Your words are, quite literally, worthless. They literally don't mean anything to me.

    I am pissed that you used my words as a club for hitting me with instead of opening a line of discussion.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  19. #44
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    By the by.

    If you need an Attitude to bicycle on a road, then you are in competition, whether you know it or not.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  20. #45
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    This VC Attitude thing:

    It's just a passive agressive way of dealing with insults. I used to have it. Thank God I don't anymore.

    The honks don't mean anything. Ignore the yells. They don't mean anything. They don't mean anything. They DON'T mean anything. THEY DON'T MEAN ANYTHING!!!
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  21. #46
    pj7
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    Congratulations Helmet Head, you did it again.
    I am a sig Virus. Please put me in your sig so that I can continue to replicate.

  22. #47
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    This VC Attitude thing:

    It's just a passive agressive way of dealing with insults. I used to have it. Thank God I don't anymore.

    The honks don't mean anything. Ignore the yells. They don't mean anything. They don't mean anything. They DON'T mean anything. THEY DON'T MEAN ANYTHING!!!
    Exactly... how does that attitude adjustment take place in an LAB Road class? I don't recall anything special being passed out to the timid cyclist that just wanted to go to work some 3 miles from her home. (Road I class)

    I don't recall the LAB instructor setting up any attitude or infering that an attitude of any sort was required.

    I do recall the high speed turns... perhaps it was in mastering those... maybe it was the day that I was seconds late... yeah that's it.

    Anyway HH, why do cyclists need an attitude... I don't recall needing one to drive a motor vehicle.

  23. #48
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    HH: I don't accept your inferiority syndrome. I you say I have it, and of course, it is a bad thing, it is a personal insult.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  24. #49
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Who said cyclists were inferior?

    I just said they were out of place on a road designed with only cars in mind. Inferiority is a personal thing.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  25. #50
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HH
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    It is simply amazing how much calmer things are when there is a bike lane on the road so that motorists and cyclists can cooperate without pissing each other off.

    It's the space, not the stripe, that allows for that.
    I disagree. My experience tells me otherwise. Perhaps I am not God like enough.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

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